[2019 Super Rugby] Semi Finals (29 June 2019)

[smartcooky]

or a drop kick.

I know a few people who have tried to kick the ball after the first bounce to prevent the ref from calling a knock on, myself included. I was in my team's 22 and the kick went about 5 mts far.
Referee had to wait a minute before he warned me because he couldnt stop laughing.

On a related note, I once saw a team that performed the following play: fixed formation, say scrum, SH passes to FH. FH passes a bit of a high flat pass to 1C. 1C goes towards the ball and without using his hands heads the ball straight from the pass over the rushing defence line, a good 10-15 meters. 2C and FB chase at full speed, open enough to cover potential bounces but close enough to support each other.
The defence never saw what hit them. Some of the most creative stuff i've ever seen. Not sure if a ref might call it for being against good sportsmanship or something. The ref there did not.

I asked after the game about it and they said their success rate was terrible with that play, that it had cost them quite a few tries against them but that is. The pass and the header have to be reasonably accurate and that is quite difficult to perform at speed.

Yep. One of your guys did that playing for Manawatu in 2007... Francisco Bosch (sorry about the video quality)



He was a very popular player for the Turbos...

 

[smartcooky]

As another idiot once said, I think I misunderestimated this Crusaders team.

Was that the same idiot who is reputed to have said ""the trouble with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur" ?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Well congratulations to the Crusaders to a third Super rugby ***le in a row. What chance do the Jaguares have not only playing the 'Saders at home but also having to overcome the jet lag from their journey to NZ?

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

What chance do the Jaguares have not only playing the 'Saders at home but also having to overcome the jet lag from their journey to NZ?

You mean the same Jaguares that won 7 out of their last 8 games in Oceania?
The Jaguares that beat the Hurricanes in Wellington last month?
Those jaguares?
Zero, not a chance.


Not saying we are favs, clearly not, but i wouldn't count the chips just yet.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

You mean the same Jaguares that won 7 out of their last 8 games in Oceania?
The Jaguares that beat the Hurricanes in Wellington last month?
Those jaguares?
Zero, not a chance.


Not saying we are favs, clearly not, but i wouldn't count the chips just yet.

And did Jaguares play and beat the Canes after coming from Argentina and playing there the week before?

This isn't a criticism of the Jaguares, but more the format of the competition which puts the away team in the final at a major disadvantage, especially if they have to play a NZ team (if they are not an Australian team). The Jaguares now have to overcome the 15 hour time difference and play their first major final in less than a week. They are pretty much 20 points down before the first whistle has been blown.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I dont mind you atacking the jaguares. Not one bit. Please, go all in. What i do care about the incongruence of your argument.
In order for your point to be valid, you would need to explain how we beat the Hurricanes in Wellington, while on tour through Oceania.

Im not talking about us beating the Kings in port elizabeth or the sunwolves in Tokio back in 2016.
This was last month, it was against the team that 1 day ago cornered the crusaders. And we did so at their stadium, 10,000 km away from home.

So after 2 consecutive tours and winning 7 out of 8 games (and trust me, you need to watch the loss), when u tell me we should be worried because of the travel, i have no idea what you are talking about.
I am worried about facing a top-class team. I am worried about the weather. I am worried about 1/2 players getting injured. I'm worried about tactics. I am petrified about our scrum. I am terrified about those cross kicks cutting through our rush defense.
I am not worried about traveling. Not one bit.

Dont get me wrong, of course I would talk a final in BsAs, but more because of a) the fans b) the impact it has on other teams.
I don't think we play better in Argentina than we do away.

I'll repeat it in case it wasn't clear. We are not favourites, far from it, but there's a stretch from saying we are the underdogs to saying the crusaders have won it already.

The crowd will be against us. History is against us. The stats will say we shouldn't win. Australia is against us.
That's how we like it.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Jeez stop getting so defensive. As I said I am not attacking or criticising the Jaguares, I am criticizing the fact the competition puts whoever is an away team at a major disadvantage playing a NZ team in a final of the Super Rugby after playing the week before, especially if they are not a NZ and Australian team.

And didn't the Jaguares play the Highlanders in NZ and lost to them the week before they beat the Canes and also the week before were in South Africa. At least they had time to adjust in the two weeks before, albeit from the 10 hours behind in SA to 15 hours of NZ . Now Jaguares are going straight from Argentina to NZ in and having to adjust to the 15 hour time difference in less than a week. That to me straight away says advantage Crusaders who have played all their games from the QFs at home.

If Jaguares somehow manage to win next week then it would be all the more remarkable achievement. But personally I am not holding my breath.

 

[smartcooky]

Well congratulations to the Crusaders to a third Super rugby ***le in a row. What chance do the Jaguares have not only playing the 'Saders at home but also having to overcome the jet lag from their journey to NZ?

You mean the same Jaguares that won 7 out of their last 8 games in Oceania?
The Jaguares that beat the Hurricanes in Wellington last month?
Those jaguares?
Zero, not a chance.


Not saying we are favs, clearly not, but i wouldn't count the chips just yet.

And did Jaguares play and beat the Canes after coming from Argentina and playing there the week before?

This isn't a criticism of the Jaguares, but more the format of the competition which puts the away team in the final at a major disadvantage, especially if they have to play a NZ team (if they are not an Australian team). The Jaguares now have to overcome the 15 hour time difference and play their first major final in less than a week. They are pretty much 20 points down before the first whistle has been blown.

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong gameI, but I seem to recall that the Jags beat the Canes having made 12 changes from the week before....

First, the Crusaders could be missing Richie Mo'unga, Ryan Crotty and Scott Barrett for the final.

Second, the Jags will likely be at full strength.

As a Crusaders supporter, I am not writing the Jags off - only a fool would do that.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong gameI, but I seem to recall that the Jags beat the Canes having made 12 changes from the week before....

First, the Crusaders could be missing Richie Mo'unga, Ryan Crotty and Scott Barrett for the final.

Second, the Jags will likely be at full strength.

As a Crusaders supporter, I am not writing the Jags off - only a fool would do that.

Cookey that's your heart as a 'Saders fan talking and also the mantra "never underestimate the opposition, " which is fair enough. But your head must say that the Crusaders are at a major advantage going into next week's final facing a jet lagged Jaguares where margins at this level physical and mental make all the difference. And full strength of not then that is the depth of the Sader's squad and who can step in regardless of injury and suspension, especially the two time defending champions going for a 3 peat.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Jeez stop getting so defensive.

Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are defensive. I am not being defensive. Quite the contrary. I am attacking your argument because i see flaws.

As I said I am not attacking or criticizing the Jaguares, I am criticizing the fact the competition puts whoever is an away team at a major disadvantage playing a NZ team in a final of the Super Rugby after playing the week before, especially if they are not a NZ and Australian team.

If that is genuinely your criticism, you are picking arguably the worst time to bring that up.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are defensive. I am not being defensive. Quite the contrary. I am attacking your argument because i see flaws.


If that is genuinely your criticism, you are picking arguably the worst time to bring that up.

It's your tone Cruz which shows you are being defensive, not that you disagree with me which I have no problem with, and the fact you don't like me criticizing that Jaguares are at a major disadvantage going into next week's final.

Well no time like the present to criticise an uneven contest.

Just looking at the time the second semi finished yesterday, which would be what around 9pmish Argentina time. Unless the players went straight to the airport and got on a flight, I am thinking they probably flying out first thing Sunday morning. Then a 17 hour plus flight via Auckland and they get to Christchurch Tuesday evening around 6pm NZ time. So already 3 days have been knocked off for just getting to Christchurch. Then all the Jet lag to overcome the 15 hours time difference and 2-3 days to get used to differing conditions. Don't know about anyone else who has tried to overcome a 12 plus hour jet lag let alone 15 hours and these being elite athletes playing in a big rugby final and over coming a home team who have been preparing and tucked up in bed whilst the other team have been flying through two time zones, but I would say it's a bit unfair on the travelling side no matter who they are.

But hey the proof will be in the pudding and if Jaguares somehow overcome the travel and all that it entails it will be one of the greatest wins in rugby.

 

[Manaos_Drinker]

And did Jaguares play and beat the Canes after coming from Argentina and playing there the week before?

This isn't a criticism of the Jaguares, but more the format of the competition which puts the away team in the final at a major disadvantage, especially if they have to play a NZ team (if they are not an Australian team). The Jaguares now have to overcome the 15 hour time difference and play their first major final in less than a week. They are pretty much 20 points down before the first whistle has been blown.

It's funny how the team that has more fly time, more diferents time zones, week in, week out, is the one who has less complains about it. And the ones who more complain about it, are the ones who play almost all theirs games without leave their own country. (Or their fans at least)

Jaguares can win, or lose, or whatever. But the travel or the time zone arent gonna be a excuse for it.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

It's your tone Cruz which shows you are being defensive

I didn't know i was in presence of a tone defensiveness sommelier.
Excuse moi.

and the fact you don't like me criticizing that Jaguares are at a major disadvantage going into next week's final.

In logic the above is called a straw man and it is considered one of the most used informal fallacies.
I dont mind, i even enjoy criticism of my team. It helps me reflect and think. Check my posts about jaguares since 2016 and tell me i have a problem criticizing jaguares with a straight face.
What i do mind is what i consider to be a baseless assessment. Not quite the same thing.

 

[bushytop]

It's funny how the team that has more fly time, more diferents time zones, week in, week out, is the one who has less complains about it. And the ones who more complain about it, are the ones who play almost all theirs games without leave their own country. (Or their fans at least)

Jaguares can win, or lose, or whatever. But the travel or the time zone arent gonna be a excuse for it.

I think @The_Blindside is just pointing out that this ain't no mere 'away' fixture, it's a major long haul flight at short notice, which takes time to recover from... and there is only a week between their last fixture and this final. It's more an issue with the format than a pop at the Jaguares... in fact I'm sure most of us neutrals would love the Jaguares to get the win, it's just a really tough schedule for them when they already have a particularly tough fixture.

Best of luck to them though.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I didn't know i was in presence of a tone defensiveness sommelier.
Excuse moi.


In logic the above is called a straw man and it is considered one of the most used informal fallacies.
I dont mind, i even enjoy criticism of my team. It helps me reflect and think. Check my posts about jaguares since 2016 and tell me i have a problem criticizing jaguares with a straight face.
What i do mind is what i consider to be a baseless assessment. Not quite the same thing.

*Sigh*. Anyway good luck to the Jaguares next week. Maybe Bushy just put it another way, which is more palatable to you but basically my point.

 

[FNS]

75% winning chance for the Crusaders. They have 7/8 all blacks and the rest of the team would start on many internationals teams (our team for sure). Plus we had a very tough time against the 7th overall chiefs...this is the 1 overall team. We have an issue with NZ teams. They are hard to us.

 

[Manaos_Drinker]

I think @The_Blindside is just pointing out that this ain't no mere 'away' fixture, it's a major long haul flight at short notice, which takes time to recover from... and there is only a week between their last fixture and this final. It's more an issue with the format than a pop at the Jaguares... in fact I'm sure most of us neutrals would love the Jaguares to get the win, it's just a really tough schedule for them when they already have a particularly tough fixture.

Best of luck to them though.

But the schedule of the final has nothing to do with the conference format. It's only a bad planned fixture. (Maybe they though it would be a Nz vs Nz final. So didnt care about travels time)

A full round Robin tournament would be Even worst for Jaguares time on Planes. XD

Now, nothing of this matters now. There is a game ahead, and if both teams play to their prime level, spectators and rugby itself will be the winners.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't buy wholeheartedly into the travel argument. Yeah, its difficult, but its not impossible to overcome and it affects every team to some degree. Super Rugby has been going for 24 years now and the medical and fitness staff have created systems to manage the jet lag, for example, travelling early to maximise acclimatization time, the use of light early training runs building to the weekend, the use of compression garments during flight, and the administering melatonin supplements post flight. Additionally, all the players fly business class, and any traveller who has travelled cattle class and business class will know what a huge difference that makes.

I often hear this argument that South African teams are at a much greater disadvantage because of the eastward travel having a greater impact on the players. While this argument, which involves the advancing (rather than the less impactful retarding) of circadian rhythms is scientifically accurate, the effect actually balances out.... NZ and Australian teams, having become accustomed to South African time zones for two weeks, now have to travel eastwards when they come home to face their opponents.

For mine, a bigger problem with the current format is the local derbies. Yes, they are a big money-spinner, but they are also quite a disadvantage for NZ and South African teams because all their sides are top level and having them play each other twice in a season takes a severe physical toll on the players. I have to say I'm looking forward to Super Rugby going back to a single round robin where local derbies only happen once per season, though I'd like to see another Argentinian team to make up to 15 so that every team has the same number of home and away matches.

 

[argie]

A magical moment. The rest of the Jaguares players who weren't in the lineup waving to those who left the dressing room and were on their way to the court.

 

[Larksea]

travel argument is kinda negated by the Jag's just having two home games so that will help. not like they have been traveling all over the place the last couple weeks.
But I look at those to semi finals and the Chrusaders v Canes game just looked a step up from what the Jag's and Brumbies were playing.
fact is the Crusaders have now won something like 30 home playoff games in a row? it's going to take something pretty darn special to break that run.