[2018 Six Nations] England Squad

[curtbob7]

Here's a question. At full strength would Curry start for any other prem clubs other than Worcester and Irish? If so, which ones?

Genuine question. I like the guy and would have him in an England EPS everytime.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Who do we have in the team that can do that, and who do we have available that's better? Lawes was massively poor in the breakdown, so please don't suggest him.



He did the flashy things, but I'd guess the basics were missing. I'm sure we should just tell Sanderson that Saracens are doing it wrong. All the players are getting beasted, but Itoje is still putting in very big shifts.



Which game, what times on the clock? And highlights are precisely that, the best bits, what about over 80 minutes? Is he hitting 30+ rucks, making double figure tackles and double figure carries?

He makes double figure tackles every week.

Your expectations sound more like what you'd want from a 6 or lock, not that of a 7.

People don't have time to rewatch 20 odd games to get you timings and exact moments.

 

[curtbob7]

In attack you want your 7 with ball in hand, linking play and running some lines. He should only be smashing rucks if the other forwards are massively behind play.

 

[Raggs]

He makes double figure tackles every week.

Your expectations sound more like what you'd want from a 6 or lock, not that of a 7.

People don't have time to rewatch 20 odd games to get you timings and exact moments.

Eddie and England need a 6 and 7 that both clear out rucks. That's how they play. I don't expect anyone to watch the game for me, but it would be nice if someone could tell me a game to watch, where Curry is particularly busy in the ruck. I watched the Sarries game and didn't notice it, despite looking for it, but that was a poor one in attack for Sale for the most part, with Sarries just strangling them. I'm not against a Curry getting a go, but it's clear from Englands play that both flankers are heavily tasked with clearing rucks (or we end up with a Lawes at 6 situation, and losing the breakdown massively).

Linking play is great, they need to be support, on hand to either clear the resulting ruck, or take the offload. Your 7 should absolutely be clearing/securing rucks off of setpiece play, that's the entire point of them playing on the openside of the scrum.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Prior to that, Matt Kvesic went off the boil hugely when he went to Gloucester, Sam Jones got a bad injury as did Tom Rees, Brendan O'Connor has been okay but not hugely exceptional and Stefan Armitage was over the channel.

Strongly disagree with that. He was consistently ver strong in an embarassing Glos side, and was then relegated to the bench or completely ignored when it was announced he was moving to Exe...

He played extremely well when selected by England, winning MOM awards over people who were selected ahead of him for the senior side.

According to EJ, Kvesic has been rejected because he isn't physical enough.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

GIVE ME WILLIS FOR ENGLAND!!!

Strongly disagree with that. He was consistently ver strong in an embarassing Glos side, and was then relegated to the bench or completely ignored when it was announced he was moving to Exe...

He played extremely well when selected by England, winning MOM awards over people who were selected ahead of him for the senior side.

According to EJ, Kvesic has been rejected because he isn't physical enough.

That doesn't sound at all like something Glous would do...........................

Honestly never seen a club get so arsey when players leave, Burns, Kvesic and Moriarty all got ****** over by Glous when they announced they where moving.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Eddie and England need a 6 and 7 that both clear out rucks. That's how they play. I don't expect anyone to watch the game for me, but it would be nice if someone could tell me a game to watch, where Curry is particularly busy in the ruck. I watched the Sarries game and didn't notice it, despite looking for it, but that was a poor one in attack for Sale for the most part, with Sarries just strangling them. I'm not against a Curry getting a go, but it's clear from Englands play that both flankers are heavily tasked with clearing rucks (or we end up with a Lawes at 6 situation, and losing the breakdown massively).

Linking play is great, they need to be support, on hand to either clear the resulting ruck, or take the offload. Your 7 should absolutely be clearing/securing rucks off of setpiece play, that's the entire point of them playing on the openside of the scrum.

I think the point being made is England need to find a 7 who doesn't just clear rucks and essentially be an extra blindside type player.

There are 7 other players in that pack. The locks and 6, the hooker and a prop, can all work to do what you're asking the openside to do.

England haven't chosen to play 6.5s because they love the way it works in their game plan, they did it originally out of necessity.

If we have a proper 7, it'll improve the link play (which has been dire), actually threaten opposition ball which might mean they commit men to the breakdown and not just fan out.

If we continue to use our flankers in such an undynamic manner, we will struggle.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Strongly disagree with that. He was consistently ver strong in an embarassing Glos side, and was then relegated to the bench or completely ignored when it was announced he was moving to Exe...

He played extremely well when selected by England, winning MOM awards over people who were selected ahead of him for the senior side.

According to EJ, Kvesic has been rejected because he isn't physical enough.

Fair enough, I just recall him being less effective at Gloucester than he was at Worcester. Maybe I had my judgement clouded by the way his time at Gloucester came to an end.

 

[Raggs]

GIVE ME WILLIS FOR ENGLAND!!!

Willis is definitely a potential, though still young, would like to see what happens to him when 2nd season syndrome kicks in. Can only talk about his Quins game numbers, but there he had 17 carries, 16 tackles, 4 defenders beaten, 48 ruck involvements, 5 turnovers, 2 lineouts. An insane amount of effective work. OK, it was only Quins in awful form, which is not the same as an international, but it does show the sort of numbers that a flanker needs to be able to produce. He won't hit those heights every game, but it shows he's capable. Although not an option due to age, Guy Thompson is another who produces those sort of huge numbers too.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It may have been deemed to be necessary initially, but as I've pointed out, Kvesic was brought on the 2013 tour to Argentina and played exceptionally well... wasn't picked in the internationals.
He did the same in NZ in 2014... again Wood and Haskell were retained ahead of him.

A similar thing happened with Carl Fearns in 2012.

Fair enough, I just recall him being less effective at Gloucester than he was at Worcester. Maybe I had my judgement clouded by the way his time at Gloucester came to an end.

He was played as an 8 a lot more at Wuss, and wasn't regularly having to make 20+ tackles a game.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Here's a question. At full strength would Curry start for any other prem clubs other than Worcester and Irish? If so, which ones?

Genuine question. I like the guy and would have him in an England EPS everytime.

I think you'd have him over Wallace at Quins and maybe Brussow at Saints.

 

[Raggs]

I think the point being made is England need to find a 7 who doesn't just clear rucks and essentially be an extra blindside type player.

There are 7 other players in that pack. The locks and 6, the hooker and a prop, can all work to do what you're asking the openside to do.

England haven't chosen to play 6.5s because they love the way it works in their game plan, they did it originally out of necessity.

If we have a proper 7, it'll improve the link play (which has been dire), actually threaten opposition ball which might mean they commit men to the breakdown and not just fan out.

If we continue to use our flankers in such an undynamic manner, we will struggle.

Well if all the other players can do it, why haven't they been? Linking our attacking play won't stop Scotland or France turning us over repeatedly. If he's the support player, he needs to be getting in the rucks, securing ball. We've seen what happens when we have a luxury player in the backrow, not hitting his fair share of rucks, we get turned over all the time.

 

[curtbob7]

I think you'd have him over Wallace at Quins and maybe Brussow at Saints.

I agree.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Well if all the other players can do it, why haven't they been? Linking our attacking play won't stop Scotland or France turning us over repeatedly. If he's the support player, he needs to be getting in the rucks, securing ball. We've seen what happens when we have a luxury player in the backrow, not hitting his fair share of rucks, we get turned over all the time.

I'd suggest that in certain contexts, having a player with a huge volume of work, but who lacks acute impact, is a luxury.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Simple question. What should Eddie's top three priorities be for SA?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would take a Curry at tigers.
I mean Leicester do some excellent curries anyway.

Simple question. What should Eddie's top three priorities be for SA?

Front Row depht
Back Row depht
Centre depth

With 9 and back 3 depth after that.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Well if all the other players can do it, why haven't they been? Linking our attacking play won't stop Scotland or France turning us over repeatedly. If he's the support player, he needs to be getting in the rucks, securing ball. We've seen what happens when we have a luxury player in the backrow, not hitting his fair share of rucks, we get turned over all the time.

Fatigue, failure to adapt, static runners off poor ball and the vicious cycle that causes.

Curry doesn't not support and he actively hits rucks.

The failure of the team this 6N shouldn't preclude the selection of a specialist opensides who could bring a whole new threat to the opposition.

 

[Raggs]

I'd suggest that in certain contexts, having a player with a huge volume of work, but who lacks acute impact, is a luxury.

Agreed. That's why we need BV or Hughes back (not that either of them particularly lack for workrate, they just direct their energy into carries). However rucks are always going to be there, and always need clearing, a luxury player can help with that and improve that, if they are a big carrier like BV, it makes clearing the ruck easier, but we're not suggesting the introduction of a new big carrier.

Right now we have ruck workhorses at 2,4,5,6,7 assuming Robshaw and Haskell. Mako and now thankfully Sinckler provide carrying, and so should our 8, but our 2 main choices there are broken. Perhaps if we go for Simmonds at 8, we can have a less hard working 7, but we need to make up for the power carrying somewhere else.

Dirty work has to be done by someone. I'm also not suggesting Curry doesn't do it, but I haven't seen it but am often reassured he does, hence my repeated requests for a game to watch where he does.

 

[curtbob7]

Simple question. What should Eddie's top three priorities be for SA?

Back-row quality and depth.

Breakdown as a whole.

Leadership.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Agreed. That's why we need BV or Hughes back (not that either of them particularly lack for workrate, they just direct their energy into carries). However rucks are always going to be there, and always need clearing, a luxury player can help with that and improve that, if they are a big carrier like BV, it makes clearing the ruck easier, but we're not suggesting the introduction of a new big carrier.

Right now we have ruck workhorses at 2,4,5,6,7 assuming Robshaw and Haskell. Mako and now thankfully Sinckler provide carrying, and so should our 8, but our 2 main choices there are broken. Perhaps if we go for Simmonds at 8, we can have a less hard working 7, but we need to make up for the power carrying somewhere else.

Dirty work has to be done by someone. I'm also not suggesting Curry doesn't do it, but I haven't seen it but am often reassured he does, hence my repeated requests for a game to watch where he does.

I can't personally go 'here is X vs Sale and he had a real stand out game hitting rucks'. That's because there's never been an issue of him not doing it so I'm not spending a match thinking, 'hey, Wonder whether Ben has cleared a few men out?'.