[2018 Six Nations] England Squad

[MarkyH]

Who do we have in the team that can do that, and who do we have available that's better? Lawes was massively poor in the breakdown, so please don't suggest him.



He did the flashy things, but I'd guess the basics were missing. I'm sure we should just tell Sanderson that Saracens are doing it wrong. All the players are getting beasted, but Itoje is still putting in very big shifts.



Which game, what times on the clock? And highlights are precisely that, the best bits, what about over 80 minutes? Is he hitting 30+ rucks, making double figure tackles and double figure carries?

Blimey mate, I'm hardly going to go through the all the highlights from September and give you the times stamps of each time he hits a ruck am I? I also haven't made any notes when watching the highlights package...

Oh, and the Robshaw role of tackle and minimul carries doesn't have to be done by a backrow forward, that's why I said 'there's enough in the team who can do what Robshaw does, so we can exclude Robshaw and develop someone else at 6.

 

[Raggs]

I can't personally go 'here is X vs Sale and he had a real stand out game hitting rucks'. That's because there's never been an issue of him not doing it so I'm not spending a match thinking, 'hey, Wonder whether Ben has cleared a few men out?'.

OK, so I could watch the Sale Quins game, that has 93 attacking rucks (Bath game only has 70 or so), and expect a decent showing? To be at a similar rate to Hask/Robshaw I'd expect him to hit maybe 19/20 rucks in attack. He made plenty of tackles too, so that's good. Not a strong game on the carry, but normally he's very good in the wider channels with carrying.

Blimey mate, I'm hardly going to go through the all the highlights from September and give you the times stamps of each time he hits a ruck am I? I also haven't made any notes when watching the highlights package...

Oh, and the Robshaw role of tackle and minimul carries doesn't have to be done by a backrow forward, that's why I said 'there's enough in the team who can do what Robshaw does, so we can exclude Robshaw and develop someone else at 6.

I'm asking for 1 game, that I'll watch. As above, how about the Quins game?

Robshaw made more carries than any other player apart from Mako. They weren't awful carries either, not amazing, middle of the road sort of thing, in tough traffic. But when we don't have a proper hardworking flanker in place, the others don't make up the difference. You can't just say, these players will do better.

EDIT - Oh, and this is the sort of thing that Eddie will not want to see from his 7.

 

[MarkyH]

I'm not going to re-watch the extended highlights and log the times Curry contested at a ruck, I can't tell you the exact times Robshaw did on saturday either, never mind earlier in the season. I'm more than happy to sit and watch a game and make some notes in the future if you'd like me to.

You're right, I can't say other players will do better, but we need someone else to do better right? I'm sure Robshaw and Haskell aren't going to improve more so why not, if they fail we go back to tried and tested. I'd like to see a Curry at 7 and Underhill at 6. Like to see Willis more so next season as I think he could be ideal at 6. I've watched Wasps games btw, and I can't tell you any stats from them either. I can however look them up if I could be bothered.

 

[Raggs]

I'm not going to re-watch the extended highlights and log the times Curry contested at a ruck, I can't tell you the exact times Robshaw did on saturday either, never mind earlier in the season. I'm more than happy to sit and watch a game and make some notes in the future if you'd like me to.

You're right, I can't say other players will do better, but we need someone else to do better right? I'm sure Robshaw and Haskell aren't going to improve more so why not, if they fail we go back to tried and tested. I'd like to see a Curry at 7 and Underhill at 6. Like to see Willis more so next season as I think he could be ideal at 6. I've watched Wasps games btw, and I can't tell you any stats from them either. I can however look them up if I could be bothered.

So the Quins game should be a fair representation for me to watch then?

 

[RugbyMarvel]

OK, so I could watch the Sale Quins game, that has 93 attacking rucks (Bath game only has 70 or so), and expect a decent showing? To be at a similar rate to Hask/Robshaw I'd expect him to hit maybe 19/20 rucks in attack. He made plenty of tackles too, so that's good. Not a strong game on the carry, but normally he's very good in the wider channels with carrying.

I think we are just going to go around in circles.

No, as a 7 I would not expect him to be hitting the same amount of rucks as Haskell or Robshaw because that is not his primary focus. They are blindside flankers, he is not.

I'd expect you'd see him hitting rucks, but also doing lots of other work around the park. He will by virtue of being a specialist in a different position to Robshaw, do different things than him.

If you want to measure the effectiveness of a openside using figures more associated with a blindside, then fine. It's a pointless discussion to have in that case.

My argument is this, an openside flanker actually acting like an openside flanker will mean opposition commit more men to rucks, which may help our attack as less men out wide.

Other forwards can do their jobs more effectively and clear rucks. Sinckler is an example of a prop who carries and also clears, consistently offering themselves up. We should not fix one problem (ball retention) and allow another (forcing turnovers/Pens) to just grow.

 

[MarkyH]

So the Quins game should be a fair representation for me to watch then?

Why not eh? I'm no Curry fanboy, just choose a Sale game where he started, then maybe watch a few more if you're so inclined so you can make a reasoned judgement yourself. I can't remember specifics of any game unless it stands out. I've seen Curry do well, he's young, has potential and they made him twice.

My whole point is there is no harm in trying new dynamics in the backrow. Young players have potential to improve and learn. Why not in SA

 

[curtbob7]

Greg Bateman will fix everything.

 

[MarkyH]

I think we are just going to go around in circles.

No, as a 7 I would not expect him to be hitting the same amount of rucks as Haskell or Robshaw because that is not his primary focus. They are blindside flankers, he is not.

I'd expect you'd see him hitting rucks, but also doing lots of other work around the park. He will by virtue of being a specialist in a different position to Robshaw, do different things than him.

If you want to measure the effectiveness of a openside using figures more associated with a blindside, then fine. It's a pointless discussion to have in that case.

My argument is this, an openside flanker actually acting like an openside flanker will mean opposition commit more men to rucks, which may help our attack as less men out wide.

Other forwards can do their jobs more effectively and clear rucks. Sinckler is an example of a prop who carries and also clears, consistently offering themselves up. We should not fix one problem (ball retention) and allow another (forcing turnovers/Pens) to just grow.

Good response, he's a 7 and with an aggressive 6 it could work very well. But can you tell me how many rucks he hit in the game vs Scarlets in the Anglo Welsh? And what minute?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Greg Bateman will fix everything.

Certainly has the look of a multi-tradesman...

 

[Raggs]

I think we are just going to go around in circles.

No, as a 7 I would not expect him to be hitting the same amount of rucks as Haskell or Robshaw because that is not his primary focus. They are blindside flankers, he is not.

I'd expect you'd see him hitting rucks, but also doing lots of other work around the park. He will by virtue of being a specialist in a different position to Robshaw, do different things than him.

If you want to measure the effectiveness of a openside using figures more associated with a blindside, then fine. It's a pointless discussion to have in that case.

My argument is this, an openside flanker actually acting like an openside flanker will mean opposition commit more men to rucks, which may help our attack as less men out wide.

Other forwards can do their jobs more effectively and clear rucks. Sinckler is an example of a prop who carries and also clears, consistently offering themselves up. We should not fix one problem (ball retention) and allow another (forcing turnovers/Pens) to just grow.

But you can't just say everyone else should do more, it doesn't work that way. Those attacking rucks will need to be cleared, or they will be turned, as we saw in the Scotland game. Sinckler hit 10 attacking rucks against Ireland. He's not going to be able to double that number, without sacrificing elsewhere.

How is having an openside flanker, acting like an openside flanker, going to encourage opposition to commit more men to our attacking rucks? If anything they'll not bother, since they'll know we'll have first man to the ruck and it's tough for them to turnover. It may force them to commit more to their attacking rucks, reducing their attacking options (which is pretty much what happened a lot to us against the Irish).

I'm not saying Curry can't do it all, never have, I've only ever asked for a good game to watch where I can see him doing it all. Harlequins vs Wasps for instance is a great one to see Willis doing it all.

Currently about 20 minutes through the Quins Sale game, and he's certainly doing well so far, his pace saves him from needing to use physicality for the most part, which is great, first man in is king.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why the hell would you want curry to do what the current flankers are doing?
Our backrow is the worst in the top 10, shoe horning an incredibly talented flanker into a proven failure of a system and telling him to play like that is just ludicrous.

Every other club and country used a traditional 7, pointing at England and saying "LOOK AT WHAT ROBSHAW DOES, CAN HE DO THAT?!"
No, he can't. And that's a ******* Godsend

 

[Raggs]

Why the hell would you want curry to do what the current flankers are doing?
Our backrow is the worst in the top 10, shoe horning an incredibly talented flanker into a proven failure if a system and telling him to play like that is just ludicrous.

Every other club and country used a traditional 7, pointing at England and saying "LOOK AT WHAT ROBSHAW DOES, CAN HE DO THAT?!"
No, he can't. And that's a ******* Godsend

Every other traditional 7 can do what Robshaw can do, but faster. Robshaw won us a lot of turnovers in the last few games, his problem is his pace. Haskell is almost incapable of turnovers, and is also definitely due an upgrade. But the work they do will still exist, and still needs doing, and the vast majority at least, will need to be done by the replacement.

 

[Raggs]

Got to half time, may stop for now and carry on later. So far he's definitely on track for getting to enough rucks, slight question on his strength/impact, but his pace is certainly helping a lot in getting him there first, very useful. He does try to get out to the wings on attack, and for good reason as can be shown by his support line, followed by offload for the van Rensberg try.

 

[Which Tyler]

I've had a look at who I would consider the first 5 choices in each position (assuming that no-one covers multiple positions; so that's a full 5th choice XV); and totted up their playing time so far this season - given my well-documented concern with player fatigue.

Marler    1156   MVunipola   1809   Genge       706   Obano     1033   Hepburn      665
George    1535   LCD          707   Hartley    1192   Taylor       0   Dunn        1162
Sinckler  1339   Williams     797   Cole       1801   Thomas     590   PHill        441
Lawes     2001   Itoje       1791   Ewels       924   Witty     1153   JHill       1390
Kruis     1678   Launchbury  1513   Isiekwe    1405   Attwood    145   Stooke      1620
Robshaw   1561   Underhill    674   Haskell    1465   Wilson    1574   Armand      1757
Simmonds  1356   BCurry      1387   TCurry      420   Ellis       80   Evans        424
BVunipola  227   Hughes       801   Mercer     1078   Ewers      560   Morgan       430
                                 
Youngs    1286   Care        1454   Robson     1259   Maunder    130   Vellacott    871
Ford      1805   Smith       1463   Cipriani   1081   Lozowski  1147   Shillcock    790
Daly      1544   May         1720   Solomona   1572   Ibitoye    218   Woodburn    1684
Farrell   1938   Te'o         965   Devoto      420   SHill      893   Williams     711
Joseph    1816   Tuilagi      795   Slade      1476   Marchant   963   Trinder      976
Nowell    1031   Cokanasiga  1123   Rokoduguni  787   Earle      807   Lewington   1398
Watson    2112   Brown       1220   Woodward   1064   Goode     1864   Hammersley  1346

Watson and Hughes look like being the first to pull out; whilst, of the Lions tourists, all but Marler, Sinckler, Haskell, Te'o, Daly and Nowell look to have been overplayed; and so should be outright rested.
Beyond that, Robshaw plays himself into the ground, and could probably do with a summer on the beach to recharge those extraordinary batteries of his. Besides we've still got The Brand if we need experience there; whilst injuries to Billy means that they should be good to go. In the backs, attrition is less of an issue unless someone's looking particularly jaded; and I'm already suggesting rest for JJ and Watson is already ruled out.

I'd be looking to start

Genge; Hartley; Williams
Launchbury; Isiekwe
Underhill; Simmonds; BVunipola (8)

Youngs; Ford
Tuilagi; Slade
May, Nowell, Woodward (15)

Bench:
LCD; Marler; Sinckler; Ewels; BCurry
Robson; Daly; Cokanasiga

Travelling:
Taylor/Dunn; Obano; Thomas; Attwood; TCurry; Haskell; Mercer
Care; Lozowski; Devoto/Marchant; Brown

I feel that each starting unit has experience; though for once, I'd actually start Hartley for precisely that (plus a nod to the inevitable); though I wouldn't mind Marler providing experience alongside LCD.
Eddie will want more locks, and fewer backrows than I've gone for; but we really do need to leave the Lions Locks at home; and we do start scraping the barrel a little once we get past Attwood in the pecking order (not exactly a bad 7th choice though!)
I feel that Underhill and Simmonds have both proven that they can hack it at international level; now let's try them in the positions that I feel best suit their game; especially with Billy enabling them. Either Curry coming off the bench to start earning experience and trust at international level. I'd like Mercer to get a bench spot; but the Curries are a higher priority for me - maybe pick one, and put Zach ahead of t'other. Hask travels in order to start in case of injury; Hask can also come in for the second test if Underhill-Simmonds doesn't work as well on the pitch as it does on paper (shade of Worsley-Moody).

We really, really need to find a 3rd choice SH; and Wigglesworth has proven once again that it shouldn't be him - if only Maunder could find some game time from somewhere. I'm tempted to take Vellacott - but that'd be primarily to stop the Scots offering him a tour.
I'd expect Ford to play 80 minutes 3 times; in which case I want versatility from his backup - Smith can go win the JRWC; whilst Cip.s either starts, or stays home.
I think that's a really juicey centre combination. I'm tempted to start Daly at 13; but the idea of Manu and Henry switching IC and OC roles (or stepping in to first receiver) would scare the hell out of me as a defender - hell, play left and right CE!. I'd be aiming to bring Elliot on at OC for Manu.
No point starting all 3 of May, Nowell and Brown; so either Woodward or Cokanasiga gets their chance - I'd probably give both a go for one of the tests. Daly can be my backup FB for this first test.


NB: When I was doing domestic minutes played by the Lions players I cocked up rather a lot on Billy - for some reason I was looking at 2016/17 figures for him - D'OH!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Jack Singleton -------> Dunn

 

[RugbyMarvel]

No Solomona?

 

[Which Tyler]

No Solomona?

Between him and Cokanasiga; who I just prefer - he also brings something different to all our other options at wing; we've got searing pace covered.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Between him and Cokanasiga; who I just prefer

I'd take Solomona over May. He's had some serious minutes too. Rather try someone fresh

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd take Solomona over May. He's had some serious minutes too. Rather try someone fresh

A very valid call; though I'd rather not start 2 inexperienced players in one unit if I didn't have to - meaning I'd only want 2 of Cokanasiga, Solomona and Woodward in any match-day 23.
I would not be unhappy with one of those wingers starting, and t'other on the bench; but that'd mean Brown at FB (which I never like alongside Nowell on the wing - they just give up too much pace when paired together; either with 2 rapid guys is fine)

ETA: Of course, Coka isn't exactly known for his pace - there's always the proviso "fast... for a guy his size"; so Nowell, Coka and Brown would NOT be an ideal back 3

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lewington is prob ahead of Woodburn and Marcus Watson.