[2018 Rugby Championship] Round 6: South Africa v New Zealand (06/10/2018)

[SomeOke]

also how good is Havili here? what an offload, he's better than Jordie imo

Havilli had a poor Super Rugby season though, or rather he looked pretty pedestrian on attack this year.

 

[Steeler]

Havilli had a poor Super Rugby season though, or rather he looked pretty pedestrian on attack this year.

he wasnt that bad, better than jordie still, another super rugby win

 

[SomeOke]

he wasnt that bad, better than jordie still, another super rugby win

As someone who obsessively plays fantasy rugby I can tell you he wasn't doing much in terms of clean breaks/meters run/defenders beaten, especially in comparison to other outside backs. Just for what it's worth, I know he did a fine job at game management, tactical kicking and so forth. Also he's still really young and one bad season doesn't mean he's ruined, but I understand why he's out of the conversation this year.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Meh. I think it's a bit of a moot point to look at a guy who played well a year ago in comparison to one this year. Form and Injury makes a massive difference in a couple of months. Also is Havili even in the squad?

Let's rather talk about the match than speculations of who is better than thou.

 

[All Black]

Havilli has been quiet in this years Super Rugby hence the non selection.

De Allende is back to reunite with Kriel in the centres so the midfield battle.

Awesome to see Marx and Etzebeth back as well.

 

[Steeler]

ill be watching Goodhue closely, really hoping he is our long term answer for centre, he certainly looks like it i nthe early days, but we thought the same of ALB 2 years ago and he's faded some what (particuarly defensively) and hasn't pushed on.

gotta rate Marx, very good player, he'd be up there in the conversation for the best hooker in world rugby currently, taylors impressed in coles absence tho

fingers crossed richie comes off the bench and puts in a game winning performance, really rate the guy, had a tough debut but i back him to come right, he's defo got the quality to be one of the best 10's in world rugby

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Pretty much zero surprises for the Springbok team... Koch in for Louw is the closest and I'm sure they are just resting him. DDA back, Flouw in for Notshe, otherwise pretty standard.
Nothing left but to enjoy the game!

Two things I am curious about that i'm hoping you can answer...
1.Do you think Flouw is your best 8 available? He doesn't seem like an 8 to me, but i guess with flouw there kolisi is freed up for more of a running role? and i guess that's not too different thaw its been working with whitely or vermeulen. i might have just answered my own question?
2.In the reserves, why damian in addition to elton? I don't know a lot about willemse, except he's played 10 at super rugby, he's young, but he's big and athletic. I don't know how much experience he's had in midfield or outside backs, but he's only young, so not much? it seems like two tens in the reserves, so please enlighten me.
a. What is the intended backline at 80 minute in terms of personnel and positions?
b. for injuries, what are the various contingency plans?
pollard injured. bring in elton to 10? or ?
de allende injured. pollard moves to 12 with elton at 10? or is damian willemse seen as a 12 option? or?
kriel injured. pollard moves to 12 with elton at 10, de allende moves out to 13? or pollard moves to 13 elton in at 10? or?
a winger injured. willemse to wing? or kriel to wing, willemse to 13? or?
fullback injured. willemse to fullback? or?

 

[Umaga's Witness]

He also decided the game last time in Wellington where we won by 2 points, match winning knock-on

i like the humour, but give aphiwe some credit there. no-one else could've prevented that situation form being a try.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

here's the vid as a reminder to some folk what we'll be missing!




also how good is Havili here? what an offload, he's better than Jordie imo

no comment on the comparison with jordie, but havili was ridiculously quiet this year for crusaders compared to the year before. he needs to prove himself as a capable gamebreaker consistently across different team make-ups, game styles/plans, and simply have the confidence to consistently be in the zone. havili also has more competition this year with NMS back, plus Dmac having started several tests at fullback at the end of last year.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

ill be watching Goodhue closely, really hoping he is our long term answer for centre, he certainly looks like it i nthe early days, but we thought the same of ALB 2 years ago and he's faded some what (particuarly defensively) and hasn't pushed on.

gotta rate Marx, very good player, he'd be up there in the conversation for the best hooker in world rugby currently, taylors impressed in coles absence tho

fingers crossed richie comes off the bench and puts in a game winning performance, really rate the guy, had a tough debut but i back him to come right, he's defo got the quality to be one of the best 10's in world rugby

firstly, charlie ngatai is our best midfielder, it was stupid to let him go.

ALB is a unique player. in the right team, with the right gameplan, he's one of the best players in the world. he has had a little bit of difficulty adapting to different team makeups/ gameplans. which means the problem is, if he is a starter, you need to consider his unique qualities when designing your gameplan, and/or your team needs a lot of playing minutes together with him. it makes it hard for coaches trying to have consistent gameplans as he's not interchangeable with other players.

personally, i think ALB should be persevered with, and the gameplan should be designed around him. he does a brilliant job at increasing momentum when we get on the front foot (by hitting a lot of rucks, far more than any other back around, and playing halfback before the halfback gets to the ruck, far more than any other back around), and does brilliantly subtle brilliant things to facilitate linebreaks. you just need others providing the punch, as his forte is not in go forward, it is in turning a one tenth opportunity into a nine tenth opportunity. which makes him a great impact player, he kinda suits that role perfectly, as game plans go out the window at that point anyway; so i hope he at least doesn't lose that role.

Goodhue is good, no doubt, and he is very normal/traditional which makes him easy for coaches. reliable too.

richie is our best ten in most aspects, but still unproven against rush defence (didn't do so well against the lions, but he was pretty inexperienced at the time) so will be great to see how he goes, especially off the bench when the defence may be a little bit more frail.

 

[mania]

firstly, charlie ngatai is our best midfielder, it was stupid to let him go.

Agree about ngatai. He never should've left. An ABs jersey was just waiting for him to recover from his concussion symptoms. Crotty and ngatai would've been devastating with sbw or alb off the bench.
ALB is awesome and totally underrated. Really low error rate and injects himself often into attack and defence. That takes an ability to read the oppn. Similar to the way conradSmith would pop uparound the field and foil attacks
Goodhue is a good option though
Mo'unga will be a great player one day but I still prefer B.B.

 

[Steeler]

fair play on the Jordie comments, there's actually no way Havili is better than Jordie. im being harsh on the kid because im still a bit annoyed with his naive performance vs SA

im really missing Ngatai, one of the biggest recent blows to NZ rugby was losing Charlie to concussion issues - hopefully Colesy comes right as well, such great players

u can't blame Charlie for leaving and making hay while the sun shines, with his concussion issues he was out off the game so much and had to move on to make a living, he didn't quite have Crotty's status in the team so he had to move on to make better money while he could sadly


im slightly concerned our attack will be muted with a Goodhue SBW midfield, both them aren't particularly offensive or quick, more solid reliable types, i think we are going to struggle a bit, and the end result will be really close

 

[SomeOke]

Two things I am curious about that i'm hoping you can answer...
1.Do you think Flouw is your best 8 available? He doesn't seem like an 8 to me, but i guess with flouw there kolisi is freed up for more of a running role? and i guess that's not too different thaw its been working with whitely or vermeulen. i might have just answered my own question?
2.In the reserves, why damian in addition to elton? I don't know a lot about willemse, except he's played 10 at super rugby, he's young, but he's big and athletic. I don't know how much experience he's had in midfield or outside backs, but he's only young, so not much? it seems like two tens in the reserves, so please enlighten me.
a. What is the intended backline at 80 minute in terms of personnel and positions?
b. for injuries, what are the various contingency plans?
pollard injured. bring in elton to 10? or ?
de allende injured. pollard moves to 12 with elton at 10? or is damian willemse seen as a 12 option? or?
kriel injured. pollard moves to 12 with elton at 10, de allende moves out to 13? or pollard moves to 13 elton in at 10? or?
a winger injured. willemse to wing? or kriel to wing, willemse to 13? or?
fullback injured. willemse to fullback? or?

I don't think Flouw is our best 8, or even an 8 at all, it's really a bit of a weakness with us at the moment, the only player who I would consider good enough and not out of position is Vermulen who is unavailable at the moment. I like Whiteley but he offers nothing but work rate and a little carrying in wide channels, so our balance between fetching/carrying/grunt can feel a little off with him on the field. I assume Flouw is there to give us more clout in the breakdown.

Willemse is covering 15 off the bench, but in his short career he has played a number of positions including 12 and wing, it's a little weird he's on the bench with Jantjies but I think Rassie see's him as an important player for the future and just wants him to have time in the side regardless of whether he is playing in the right positions.

As for injury and positional contingencies, you have to remember that Rassie took over this year, and our back line never really clicked or had a stable formula before that, meaning we barely know our starting combinations let alone who their back ups are. Willie/Faf/Pollard/Dyantyi have probably all played themselves into a starting position but we've been so desperate for a little consistency I don't think we have much of a plan beyond that.

edit: Note to self, don't make posts first thing in the morning, I apologies to anyone who read the first draft of this, for assaulting you with that incoherent mess.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't think Flouw is our best 8, or even an 8 at all, it's really a bit of a weakness with us at the moment, the only player who I would consider good enough and not out of position is Vermulen who is unavailable at the moment. I like Whiteley but he offers nothing but work rate and a little carrying in wide channels, so our balance between fetching/carrying/grunt can feel a little off with him on the field. I assume Flouw is there to give us more clout in the breakdown.

Willemse is covering 15 off the bench, but in his short career he has played a number of positions including 12 and wing, it's a little weird he's on the bench with Jantjies but I think Rassie see's him as an important player for the future and just wants him to have time in the side regardless of whether he is playing in the right positions.

As for injury and positional contingencies, you have to remember that Rassie took over this year, and our back line never really clicked or had a stable formula before that, meaning we barely know our starting combinations let alone who their back ups are. Willie/Faf/Pollard/Dyantyi have probably all played themselves into a starting position but we've been so desperate for a little consistency I don't think we have much of a plan beyond that.

edit: Note to self, don't make posts first thing in the morning, I apologies to anyone who read the first draft of this, for assaulting you with that incoherent mess.

Just to add on to this. I think if we were to rank our no. 8's it would look something like this:
1. Duane Vermeulen
2. Warren Whiteley
3. Dan Du Preez
4. Sikhumbuzo Notshe
5. Arno Botha

Then we have guys like Flouw, Marco van Staden, Jean-Luc Du Preez, Nizam Carr, Oupa Mohoje, Uzair Cassiem and a few others who can play both flanker and no. 8.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Whiteley, especially in the bok jersey, and my rankings would be very different to what I put there.

Flouw is one of our most experienced campaigners, so it makes sense to play him, he's also one of the guys who don't give away too many penalties, but still tries to pilfer the ball and do the other basics well.

As for Damian Willemse, I think we must look at Embrose Papier who is also on the bench. Papier can play both Wing and Scrumhalf. So the 3 guys selected (not only due to their colour) are there to cover nearly every position in the back. Pollard was 12 during the Wellington test nearly the entire second half.

 

[All Black]

...i think we are going to struggle a bit, and the end result will be really close

We should struggle and I guess that places an onus on the Boks to make it a tight game. Tight games is good for both teams and whilst this game isn't for any trophy, there's plenty on the line here for both teams moving forward. We want the revenge. The Boks want their fans to truly believe in them again.

We haven't lost 2 games straight since 2009 and guess who those losses were to? thats right, the Springboks. If theres any team that we should struggle against - it's the Boks whom we have a history with.

 

[All Black]

Read off side and Pollard drills it 50 out. 3 nil to the Boks

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Two cheap shots in a row there.

 

[All Black]

Scott Barrett and Anton Smith giving away penalties. Pollard makes it 6 nil

 

[All Black]

Two cheap shots in a row there.

One for both teams. Yep definitely.

 

[All Black]

Were definitely under the pump. Boks controlling possession and territory nicely throughout the first quarter.