[2018 November Tests] Ireland vs New Zealand (17/11/18)

[Carlito]

1) New Zealand are never seen as underdogs in any rugby match - full stop.
2) Plenty of precedent in professional sport were teams are considered an unbeatable force, and approach their games against them with this in mind - Manchester City in premier league football. The All Blacks.
3) go into an All Blacks game thinking you are favourites to win at your peril.

Cannot believe I am reading some of this stuff on a rugby forum.

I ask again. How many punters in here had more than 100 quid on an Ireland victory? If any money at all?

Thinking it, hoping for it, and betting on it, against the ABs, are three very different things. Hence the jubilation evident at the end of the epic match yesterday.

Yeah, after last week, I thought Ireland had a decent shout. Was I putting my mortgage on it? ........

No Ireland are now the best team in world rugby get it into those Irish heads...and a majority of athletes will prefer going into competition as underdogs from what i've read...because there is'nt that expectation or pressure to win ...so i'm picking NZ is perfectly happy for Ireland to be favourites going into next years RWC......and let the mind games begin...

 

[mania]

awesome game. thanks ireland. u showed you were the better, fitter more accurate team on the day. its was a good match to lose . irelands defence was imaculate and what i loved most was the spirit that the game was played in. no BS, biff, impropriety just pure highly paced and skilled. this is what ionternational rugby is supposed to be like.
ireland u have breathed life back into the 2019WC. u have lit up the rugby world with possibilities and belief.
as far as losses go this one isnt that bitter.
from an ABs supporter all the way. dont panic, hakuna matata

 

[mania]

Jesus there is some utter crap being spouted in this thread.
Does anyone REALLY think that Ireland just magicked their way into No. 2 spot in the world;

finally a voice of reason. agree smartcooky. is it all that surprising that 2 beat 1? nah
ABs cant win everything . this is a good game to lose against an honorable side that plays with high levels of muscle, passion, accuracy and intelligence.
ireland are an awesome side and were the better team .

 

[mania]

- Any ABs back tree combination should start with Ben Smith at 15 and if Hansen insist in moving him to the sideline by having two play-makers on the field, then Beauden Barrett should play at 15, start Mo'unga at 10 and have DMac coming off the bench to provide a real impact on the last quarter with his X Factor running type of game.

awesome comment Alex. just a little tweek
BenSmith should be in 15. if they insist on moving bBarrett or dmac back there then they can play on the wing. leave bender where he is. he's the best fullback in the world. as dynamic as dmac is attacking from the back i'd much rather have benders reliability back there interspersed with his usual xFactor defense or attack.

 

[Jimbo]

Awsome match well done to Ireland, ABs still rightfully No1, as nice as it is to see a variation on ABs winning it will certainly highlight some work ons for an already almost unstoppable side, let's hope the Rugby WC offers test matches like that.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Show me where I picked holes in it? I said it was perfect. Others disagreeing with me. Go tell them........

Nothing I am saying is far from what a lot of people probably think.

I just watched the game, which I thought was very very good, you were saying NZ are the best side in the world , which I agree with, But you also said to beat the ABs you have to be on top of your game, then they have to play poorly I found that a little disrespectful, the ABs I thought played well and put the Irish team under a lot of pressure in the final quarter, Ireland hung on for the win which was heroic

 

[mania]

As for the Irish yesterday, I thought them bloody fantastic, and was at pains to find an All Blakc that outplayed his opponent. Been watching rugby since '70. I cannot remember a time I have ever seen NZ so outplayed. Yet NZ were still in with a shout to the very end.

give it up Nubiwan, just be happy that imo your assessments are correct. u just cant pay a compliment these days without getting your head bit off.
i wouldve said that ireland had a perfect game out of respect for ireland and the game they played, but then to be shouted down by the irish supporters for saying that is just plain weird.
all good.
more importantly ; worldRugby is in great shape thanks to the irish turning up and giving a good ol fashion kick up the butt to the ABs.

imho the timing is perfect and the ABs needed to be reminded that they are but mere mortals.

 

[RugbyTackle91]

1) New Zealand are never seen as underdogs in any rugby match - full stop.
2) Plenty of precedent in professional sport were teams are considered an unbeatable force, and approach their games against them with this in mind - Manchester City in premier league football. The All Blacks.
3) go into an All Blacks game thinking you are favourites to win at your peril.

Cannot believe I am reading some of this stuff on a rugby forum.

I ask again. How many punters in here had more than 100 quid on an Ireland victory? If any money at all?

Thinking it, hoping for it, and betting on it, against the ABs, are three very different things. Hence the jubilation evident at the end of the epic match yesterday.

Yeah, after last week, I thought Ireland had a decent shout. Was I putting my mortgage on it? ........

That Ireland team knew they could beat the all blacks. They are so confident imposing their style of rugby against any opposition. It reminds me of the 2003 England team who knew they had a winning formula and it didn't matter who the opposition were they believed in their game plan. For me the jubilation has a lot to do with the game being billed as no 1 Vs no 2. If Ireland went over to NZ as number 1 and the kiwis beat them in a hard fought game you'd see the same celebrations. A bit like how NZ celebrated when kicking the ball out against England a week ago. I listen to and read a lot more media from the northern hemisphere so maybe it skews the representation, but the general feeling was that this game would show Ireland as top of the mountain in terms of world rugby.

 

[Amiga500]

Great win, fellas done great etc etc, but there are plenty of things need to be improved.

Kicking was ropey, far too often our kicks were 5-10 metres ahead of where they needed to be. We're still largely a blunt instrument inside the 22 and there was a few individual handling errors we were lucky to by-and-by large escape unpunished from.


The lineout loss on the NZ 5m line after Earls harried Barrett into touch was a massive chance to really turn the screw. That could be the winning and losing of a World Cup next time out.


I suppose, that's maybe an even better thing than winning a one score game with the perfect performance.

 

[Bean]

Yet the only game you dont recognize is one where the all blacks lost. Go figure

Lost? ABs have never lost a game since 1906.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Do anyone know if the game will be shown somewhere free to view?

 

[Amiga500]

Do anyone know if the game will be shown somewhere free to view?

Its on Channel 4 on demand....

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/rugby-union/on-demand/69157-002

 

[smartcooky]

One game isn't going to reverse the trend of decline though.

But its not just one game is it? There are a number of games that are a lot closer than the doom sayers expected.

England 35-15 Japan, (this is a team that NZ stuck 70 points on a couple of weeks)
Scotland 20-26 South Africa
France 26-29 South Africa
England 15-16 New Zealand
Wales 9-6 Australia

It's structural. You have to look at the bigger picture. It's still the same ridiculously low number of nations that can win in Japan. Sure the odds have changed, but not the number of genuine contenders.

How is that any different from any other Sports World Cup?
for example
How many nations play Football? 211.
How many have ever won it? Eight. Only eight out of 211.... 3.8%
Are there any other teams that have a realistic chance of winning? IMO, three (Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium)

Now lets see how that works out for Rugby Union
How many nations play Rugby Union? 105
How many have ever won it? Four. Only four out of 105.... 3.8% (OH LOOK, GEE WHIZ, IT THAT SAME!)
Are there any other teams that have a realistic chance of winning? IMO, three (France, Ireland, Wales)

So
Football has potentially 11 out of 211 teams that could realistically win the next FIFA WC.... 5.2%
Rugby Union has potentially 7 out of 105 teams that could realisitically win the next RWC... 6.7%

Oh dear, Rugby Union appears to be better placed in that regard. I don't see International Football declining and collapsing into oblivion any time soon. Maybe your pessimism just might be based on the structural problems you have in your game, inyou country, where rich, arrogant sugar daddies use rugby clubs as toys, and the competitions as a dick-swinging contest.

I have no idea how the outcome of this game goes in any way towards sorting out the financial mess the PI nations are in. Or addresses Georgia's on-going exclusion from the 6N amongst others.

Lots of issues that affect the development and credibility of the test game long term and that WR have continuously brushed under the carpet from one RWC to the next.

Why has this anything to do with WR?

The problems in the Pacific Islands (especially Samoa) stem mostly from political corruption. There are many politicians in Samoa with their grubby little fingers in the cookie jar, and who think that the players should not be paid to play the game. I could speak at length about this, but that is a subject for another thread. Suffice to say that there are those of us who have learned the hard way not send cash money to the islands, because corrupt politicians will get their hands on it.. We send goods... goods that have no cash value except to those they are targeted to.

 

[mania]

The problems in the Pacific Islands (especially Samoa) stem mostly from political corruption. There are many politicians in Samoa with their grubby little fingers in the cookie jar, and who think that the players should not be paid to play the game. I could speak at length about this, but that is a subject for another thread. Suffice to say that there are those of us who have learned the hard way not send cash money to the islands, because corrupt politicians will get their hands on it.. We send goods... goods that have no cash value except to those they are targeted to.

im samoan cooky and im offended youre telling everyone the truth. but agree this is for another thread.
in regards to rugby being a minority sport , i'd just like to point out that i played gridiron for 11 years outside of the US and that is a minority sport; yet one of the most loved. rugby is so much in better international shape than gridiron.
rugby cant compare to football but no sport can.
i think only basketball is a more watched team sport than rugby? thats pretty good for a so called "minority sport".
and after the irish won in the weekend i think international rugby is in a very healthy competitive state.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

But its not just one game is it? There are a number of games that are a lot closer than the doom sayers expected.

England 35-15 Japan, (this is a team that NZ stuck 70 points on a couple of weeks)
Scotland 20-26 South Africa
France 26-29 South Africa
England 15-16 New Zealand
Wales 9-6 Australia



How is that any different from any other Sports World Cup?
for example
How many nations play Football? 211.
How many have ever won it? Eight. Only eight out of 211.... 3.8%
Are there any other teams that have a realistic chance of winning? IMO, three (Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium)

Now lets see how that works out for Rugby Union
How many nations play Rugby Union? 105
How many have ever won it? Four. Only four out of 105.... 3.8% (OH LOOK, GEE WHIZ, IT THAT SAME!)
Are there any other teams that have a realistic chance of winning? IMO, three (France, Ireland, Wales)

.

You lost me when you said France and Wales have a realistic chance of winning the RWC.

 

[Maxwell]

Ireland were much fresher than the AB's who are at the end of a long season. This was punctuated by Ireland's attacking defence which lasted most of the 80 mins.

Whitelock looked old and slow and world best player Brodie Retallick poor by his lofty standards. Reed was not as dominant and Ardie was the lone soldier who lacked support. Our big bodies failed to get over the advantage line. Would have been good to see the frame of P Tuipulotu when the going got tough.

A Smith wasn't flash and IMO McKenzie is a luxury and at test level his effectiveness against the best teams should be restricted to the last 20 mins to exploit fatiguing forwards. B Smith should be 15. with Ioane & Naholo to the wings.

Crotty wasn't at his best and either Laumape or A Leinert-Brown at 12 alongside Goodhue. Never rated SBW as first XV player and still don't.

Be interesting to see if there's a bounce back this week.

 

[corny]

Just watching a replay back. The lineout problems weren't down to Toner and POM going off. It was only when Best went off and Cronin came on that it went it to ****. Actually on Cronins first throw (69 minutes) RTE put up the lineout stats..... Ireland 10/0, NZ 6/1 W/L. We'd pinched the one off them and secured one on our own ball (Murphy) while Toner was on the bench and Best was still throwing.

Cronin performs brilliantly at Leinster but he might come under pressure from Scannell for his place on the bench soon.

 

[big ginger 8]

Just watching a replay back. The lineout problems weren't down to Toner and POM going off. It was only when Best went off and Cronin came on that it went it to ****. Actually on Cronins first throw (69 minutes) RTE put up the lineout stats..... Ireland 10/0, NZ 6/1 W/L. We'd pinched the one off them and secured one on our own ball (Murphy) while Toner was on the bench and Best was still throwing.

Cronin performs brilliantly at Leinster but he might come under pressure from Scannell for his place on the bench soon.

I'm going from memory but am I right in saying we lost two lineouts when Cronin was on?

The first one was a bad throw the second one (the one on the 5) was a bad call by Henderson. He dummied near the middle and moved forward to be closer to Retallick making it an incredibly difficult lob throw. Hopefully he'll learn from it.

It is an issue for Cronin, but even if Scannell comes in I think Cronin's bench spot at least will be safe.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm going from memory but am I right in saying we lost two lineouts when Cronin was on?

The first one was a bad throw the second one (the one on the 5) was a bad call by Henderson. He dummied near the middle and moved forward to be closer to Retallick making it an incredibly difficult lob throw. Hopefully he'll learn from it.

It is an issue for Cronin, but even if Scannell comes in I think Cronin's bench spot at least will be safe.

Yes his first 2. And like your comments when I rewatched i think Henderson shoulders blame for the calling on 1.
But the scrum suffered too.
I think Best was ok yesterday but can't see him still going in Japan. He's dipped a bit now due to age. But in the lineout his thowing is less under pressure as argubally 2 of the best 4/5 lineout targets in rugby in POM and Toner ease that.

Agree Cronin will be safe as he offers alot of difference in the 16 shirt. He will never be a starter for Ireland though.
The big review though will be on the replacements in pack who came on as I don't think they offered as much impact as wqs hoped. Can't really identify anyone individually out but when the replacements came on the unit dropped standards a bit

 

[Jimbo]

Yes his first 2. And like your comments when I rewatched i think Henderson shoulders blame for the calling on 1.
But the scrum suffered too.
I think Best was ok yesterday but can't see him still going in Japan. He's dipped a bit now due to age. But in the lineout his thowing is less under pressure as argubally 2 of the best 4/5 lineout targets in rugby in POM and Toner ease that.

Agree Cronin will be safe as he offers alot of difference in the 16 shirt. He will never be a starter for Ireland though.
The big review though will be on the replacements in pack who came on as I don't think they offered as much impact as wqs hoped. Can't really identify anyone individually out but when the replacements came on the unit dropped standards a bit

To be fair to the Irish bench NZ have an uncanny nack of finishing very strong often running away with games in the final quarter that have been tight throughout, with that in mind it might be worth cutting the bench a little slack.

Just my thoughts.