[2018 November Tests] Ireland vs New Zealand (17/11/18)

[Nubiwan]

New Zealand are 100% underdogs to Ireland, and most people had Ireland as favourites last night. Not so sure about England/South Africa. I think it's clear these sides do not fear this all black team like they have in the past. I think the underdogs argument is irrelevant anyway because players now like sexton, Farrell, faf de Klerk and others believe they can best anyone and will take the team with them. I think it's ignorant to think professional rugby players view the all blacks as some unbeatable force.

To ignore the ABs historical dominance against every single nation in the world, I would call, supreme ignorance.

Even while outplayed by the Irish yesterday, they were still in it till Retallick knocked on in the 83rd minute.

Harsh to ridicule anyone suggesting the ABs are favoured whenever they take the field.

The Irish have the unfortunate task of taking the perfect game they played yesterday, and reproducing it consistently,in other matches. Question is, can they? I doubt many teams can.

We all know, from history, that the ABs will consistently perform at a high enough level to make results, like yesterday's, still rather an upset, than the norm. To refute this, is to refute history itself, even if a corner in rugby history may well have been turned.

New Zealand rugby is a machine with very few peers.

 

[munstermuffin]

So in your opinion what is your strongest starting pack and strongest bench (forwards)? If all are fit...

Pack is probably what started last night except Best is questionable. Bench is tough to call

 

[munstermuffin]

Toner is normally an 80 minute man. Has been his entire career. I think he came off not because he was spent but because we really needed a fresh ball carrier in such an attritional game. Henderson is always our go to in these types of matches and James Ryan wasn't coming off.

As an aside...... James Ryan was top tackler and only behind Stander and Aki is terms of carries. The chap is an absolute phenomenon.

But he hasn't complete much 80mins in green lately. Like I get the fresh ball carrier but we have to try maintain set piece

 

[Nubiwan]

What a game so far. Awesome rugby from both sides. RWC final type stuff.

If the RWC final is of that caliber, we have something to look forward to.

Best rugby contest since recent lions tour for me.

 

[NDC89]

Late to the party here, but Jesus, what a game! Well done Ireland, I was a bit nervous for you in the last 10 mins. Felt like the ABs had started to find a bit of space at the end, but you hung on.

This year we've seen a clear game plan to tackle this ABs side. Pressure rugby. South Africa and Ireland have pulled it off, England nearly so. Even France managed to put together a few good halfs against them over the summer with pressure defence, tactical kicking and trying to be more physical than them. Still, I reckon if Ireland played them 10 times, the ABs would win more than half. Still the best side, just not by the clear margin we have gotten used to in the last 10 years.

 

[corny]

To ignore the ABs historical dominance against every single nation in the world, I would call, supreme ignorance.

Even while outplayed by the Irish yesterday, they were still in it till Retallick knocked on in the 83rd minute.

Harsh to ridicule anyone suggesting the ABs are favoured whenever they take the field.

The Irish have the unfortunate task of taking the perfect game they played yesterday, and reproducing it consistently,in other matches. Question is, can they? I doubt many teams can.

We all know, from history, that the ABs will consistently perform at a high enough level to make results, like yesterday's, still rather an upset, than the norm. To refute this, is to refute history itself, even if a corner in rugby history may well have been turned.

New Zealand rugby is a machine with very few peers.

I don't agree with the poster you were responding to but what makes you think we played the perfect game? We played well in most aspects but we gave loads of entry points into the game to the NZ'ers in the second half, we weren't very clinical despite our dominance in the first half and although Marmion played ok Murray adds so much to our performance in attack its untrue.

We don't need the perfect game to beat this New Zealand team.

 

[Nubiwan]

I don't agree with the poster you were responding to but what makes you think we played the perfect game? We played well in most aspects but we gave loads of entry points into the game to the NZ'ers in the second half, we weren't very clinical despite our dominance in the first half and although Marmion played ok Murray adds so much to our performance in attack its untrue.

We don't need the perfect game to beat this New Zealand team.

Symantics. Ireland do need most of their 15 to be on their game to beat New Zealand. As does any nation. The gist of what I said remains true. New Zealand are still the team to beat, and will be for a while.

Ireland need to reproduce that form consistently, for about 4-5 years in order to be compared with any ABs side for the past 50. It is debatable they will maintain that level through successive squads, as New Zealand has always done, though I concede the finances of the game have changed considerably in the northern hemisphere's favour.

As for the Irish yesterday, I thought them bloody fantastic, and was at pains to find an All Blakc that outplayed his opponent. Been watching rugby since '70. I cannot remember a time I have ever seen NZ so outplayed. Yet NZ were still in with a shout to the very end.

 

[dullonien]

Yeah, I don't think Ireland played the perfect game either. They certainly played a very good pressure game, but I've seen them being more clinical in the past and despite having a very good game, I've seen Sexton play far better ball in hand.

A few members of the pack had probably their best games in an Ireland jersey though...

 

[Nubiwan]

Yeah, I don't think Ireland played the perfect game either. They certainly played a very good pressure game, but I've seen them being more clinical in the past and despite having a very good game, I've seen Sexton play far better ball in hand.

A few members of the pack had probably their best games in an Ireland jersey though...

Ok - Ireland were rubbish. thats how they beat the world champions......

I think suggesting they were near perfect, that each of their players put in a bloody good shift, out performing his opponent in many cases, more accurate.

Lets maybe give their opposition some credit. They were hardly going to let them walk trys in unsupervised.

 

[corny]

Symantecs. Ireland do need most of their 15/match day squad to be on their game to beat New Zealand. As does any nation. The gist of what I said remains true. New Zealand are still the team to beat, and will be for a while.

Ireland need to reproduce that form consistently, for about 4-5 years in order to be compared with any ABs side for the past 50. It is debatable they will maintain that level through successive squads, as New Zealand has always done, though I concede the finances of the game have changed considerably in the northern hemisphere's favour.

I don't think you know what 'Symantecs' means. You said Ireland need the perfect game to beat NZ. Thats not right. Simple as. We had three Lions missing and were playing with our third choice 7. Murray is probably our most influential player too. We had more first teamers missing than NZ. Its two-two in games between NZ-Ireland since Schmidt took over and each game could have gone either way. What you're asserting.....an Ireland win is essentially an aberration (to these players)... is wrong. It makes you feel better but its wrong.

 

[Nubiwan]

I don't think you know what 'Symantecs' means. You said Ireland need the perfect game to beat NZ. Thats not right. Simple as. We had three Lions missing and were playing with our third choice 7. Murray is probably our most influential player too. We had more first teamers missing than NZ. Its two-two in games between NZ-Ireland since Schmidt took over and each game could have gone either way. What you're asserting.....an Ireland win is essentially an aberration (to these players)... is wrong. It makes you feel better but its wrong.

Well, not quite. If you are going to quote me, then do it right. What I did say was. "The Irish have the unfortunate task of taking the perfect game they played yesterday, and reproducing it consistently,in other matches." as New Zealand have shown they can do for half the century, that I have been watching them.

I would say those players that stood in for the missing Lions were hardly missed on yesterday's evidence. Honestly thought you would struggle without Murray, but the young lad at 9 had a great game. To say Ireland were not close to perfect yesterday, in all positions, is to discredit them.

I remember back in the mid 70's thinking the Welsh the best side in World rugby with the players at their disposal. And in Britain they were, but the ABs have dominated World Rugby for near on a century. The best Welsh teams of the mid 70s, could not be replicated by that nation. These were the points i was making in the above post. The fact I thought Ireland put on a perfect performance rather reflected their overall dominance of the worlds best rugby side. I could have easily said they played great, or above themselves. Ergo, "symantIcs".

Out of curiosity, how many of us had a large slice of money on an Irish win yesterday, regardless of whether or not you thought they could or would win. I say very few.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

How many of us had a large slice of money on an Irish win yesterday, regardless of whether or not you thought they could or would win. I say very few.[/QUOTE]

Very true, but you cant take away a win against the best team in the world and pick holes in it, I haven't seen the game but well done Ireland.

 

[Nubiwan]

Very true, but you cant take away a win against the best team in the world and pick holes in it, I haven't seen the game but well done Ireland.

Show me where I picked holes in it? I said it was perfect. Others disagreeing with me. Go tell them........

Nothing I am saying is far from what a lot of people probably think.

 

[Alex Anghel]

Never seen the ABs so well beaten. Nothing Hansen or his team could have done about it.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree, irrespective of Ireland's superb rugby display. Hansen could and should have done something about it, in consideration of this "bullish rush defense" he has already been accustomed to from the Lions series/Boks/England games of 2018. Firstly by rightly balancing the team on the back side (i.e. starting Ben Smith where he belongs, namely on 15 or have him at 14, with Barrett at 15 and Mo'unga at 10) and secondly by removing from the game plan those annoyingly and aimlessly box kicks/kicks for territory/etc, that have never ever suited New Zealand's rugby style (there were about 15 minutes in the second half when the ABs started to play at hand and at speed, having the Irish on the ropes in their own 22, while bombing two or three certain try opportunities).

While I have not lost faith in Hansen's judgment, nor in his master plan, I really hope that this loss, combined with the overall display of 2018, will trigger a much needed wake up call from his part. Above all, players should be picked up on form, not based on a career reward type of selection and certainly played in the positions they could add the most value to the game/team.

 

[dullonien]

Ok - Ireland were rubbish. thats how they beat the world champions......

I think suggesting they were near perfect, that each of their players put in a bloody good shift, out performing his opponent in many cases, more accurate.

Lets maybe give their opposition some credit. They were hardly going to let them walk trys in unsupervised.

Yeah, you're correct that almost all of Ireland's players outperformed their opposition, especially up front. Ardie had a good game at 7, but it was telling that the entire front row had to be substituted just after half time.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yesterday was very good, probably an 85-90% performance but I can't help but feel we haven't seen the best of this team though. We weren't clinical enough when close to the line, we probably should have scored three tries at least. I don't think we quite utilised Ringer well enough either. everything he did, he did excellently but we should have tried to find him more.

Saying that, it was the best pack performance we've ever had, absolutely bullied them. VdF and POM are dogs of men and Ryan and Furlong are outstandingly good, the balance of skill, power, resilience and nous among those 8 players is near perfect.

Heaslip is pretty terrible, but that's to be expected from recent ex-pros who are commentating their own club/country.

The other Irish guy is absolutely God awful though. Constantly sounds like he's doing a movie trailer voice over

Ryle is an acquired taste, I miss him dearly!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

but I can't help but feel we haven't seen the best of this team though.

Think it's been quite a while since I have disagreed with you.
Yesterday was not the day to bring it up. It was your day, congrats and celebrations were in order.
Now, the ghost of peaking too early is hard to miss given your history.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Think it's been quite a while since I have disagreed with you.
Yesterday was not the day to bring it up. It was your day, congrats and celebrations were in order.
Now, the ghost of peaking too early is hard to miss given your history.

Yeah of course, the nerves going into the QF will be horrible next year but this does seem to me like we're building rather than going with the flow in the hope the puzzle pieces itself together. In 2016 we realised our potential over 80mins, in 2017 we found a bit of consistency after a slow start, it's all fallen nicely into place this year and there's still room for improvement and selection dilemmas.

I think if we're going to fall short of a semi next year NZ or SA are going to have to come out and beat us, it won't be lack of depth or choke jobs like the last three, I'm ok with that.

 

[Nubiwan]

I am sorry, but I have to disagree, irrespective of Ireland's superb rugby display. Hansen could and should have done something about it, in consideration of this "bullish rush defense" he has already been accustomed to from the Lions series/Boks/England games of 2018. Firstly by rightly balancing the team on the back side (i.e. starting Ben Smith where he belongs, namely on 15 or have him at 14, with Barrett at 15 and Mo'unga at 10) and secondly by removing from the game plan those annoyingly and aimlessly box kicks/kicks for territory/etc, that have never ever suited New Zealand's rugby style (there were about 15 minutes in the second half when the ABs started to play at hand and at speed, having the Irish on the ropes in their own 22, while bombing two or three certain try opportunities).

While I have not lost faith in Hansen's judgment, nor in his master plan, I really hope that this loss, combined with the overall display of 2018, will trigger a much needed wake up call from his part. Above all, players should be picked up on form, not based on a career reward type of selection and certainly played in the positions they could add the most value to the game/team.

Honestly don't think it would have mattered up against the Irish side yesterday. Ireland were all over them like a cheap suit. Even when NZ broke the line, Ireland had some heroic defending, and a couple of bits of good fortune. Just was not to be.

I think some of what happened last weekend, and on the field against the Irish, influenced some ABs decisions on the field too. Barrett drop kicking when a free play (penalty awarded) was on offing, was highly out of NZ character. I doubt Hansen had much say in that, and wonder if it pointed more to the pressure the players found themselves under.

 

[Nubiwan]

New Zealand are 100% underdogs to Ireland, and most people had Ireland as favourites last night. Not so sure about England/South Africa. I think it's clear these sides do not fear this all black team like they have in the past. I think the underdogs argument is irrelevant anyway because players now like sexton, Farrell, faf de Klerk and others believe they can best anyone and will take the team with them. I think it's ignorant to think professional rugby players view the all blacks as some unbeatable force.

1) New Zealand are never seen as underdogs in any rugby match - full stop.
2) Plenty of precedent in professional sport were teams are considered an unbeatable force, and approach their games against them with this in mind - Manchester City in premier league football. The All Blacks.
3) go into an All Blacks game thinking you are favourites to win at your peril.

Cannot believe I am reading some of this stuff on a rugby forum.

I ask again. How many punters in here had more than 100 quid on an Ireland victory? If any money at all?

Thinking it, hoping for it, and betting on it, against the ABs, are three very different things. Hence the jubilation evident at the end of the epic match yesterday.

Yeah, after last week, I thought Ireland had a decent shout. Was I putting my mortgage on it? ........