[2018 November Tests] Ireland vs New Zealand (17/11/18)

[smartcooky]

Jesus there is some utter crap being spouted in this thread.

Does anyone REALLY think that Ireland just magicked their way into No. 2 spot in the world; that they somehow sleepwalked their way up the WR Rankings? Of course they didn't. They are No 2 because since the end of the last RWC, they have only lost 8 of the 34 tests they have played... That record is not a long way behind New Zealand's 5 losses from 41 matches over the same period; and that includes TWO wins over New Zealand; and a 12 match winning streak from March 2017 to March 2018).

No, Ireland are in second because they deserve to be up there in that spot. After this match they will be on 91.17 with NZ only 1.36 points ahead on 92.53. NZ does not play again until the middle of next year, while Ireland will be playing in the 6N... If they pull off another Grand Slam or Triple Crown, they could well overtake NZ and take no 1 spot.

Ireland didn't win this match because of the referee, or because Hansen threw the game. They won it because they were the better team, they put us under pressure and forced us to make errors, and their defence was bloody staunch. They have a smart (Kiwi) coach and smart players that take good options. I also believe that the IRFU's central contracting system has played a part in their rise. IMO, the powers that be in the NH are slowly coming to realise that making national teams a priority allows both domestic and international rugby to flourish.

And as for all those naysayers and doom-prophets who were predicting the demise of the International game, its time for you all to STFU. The organisers of the 2019 RWC will be rubbing their hands together at results like these.... its gone from a predicted All Blacks' benefit to anyone's guess.

 

[Alex Anghel]

Although it is always painful to see ABs on the losing side, I believe that this defeat is well deserved, couldn't have come at a better time and should trigger Hansen's already a while anticipated wake up call. Just a few random thoughts:

- ABs need a strong ball carrier upfront and a Kaino enforcer type of player. Squire seemed to be the answer, but now it looks like others could fit more in this role at 6 (Frizell, Scott Barrett);

- ABs midfield has to be sorted out quickly and have players picked up purely on form. As much as I like Sonny Bill Williams, he is way past his prime and prevents other explosive, dynamic type of players to come through (i.e. Ngani Laumape);

- Any ABs back tree combination should start with Ben Smith at 15 and if Hansen insist in moving him to the sideline by having two play-makers on the field, then Beauden Barrett should play at 15, start Mo'unga at 10 and have DMac coming off the bench to provide a real impact on the last quarter with his X Factor running type of game. The current back three combination is not balanced at all and I guess that by now it became obvious that Hansen's experiments at fullback have been a failure, as while Jordie Barrett is clearly too young and inexperienced, DMac is a liability under the high ball and was exposed on too many occasions.

 

[smartcooky]

Any ABs back tree combination should start with Ben Smith at 15 and if Hansen insist in moving him to the sideline by having two play-makers on the field, then Beauden Barrett should play at 15, start Mo'unga at 10 and have DMac coming off the bench to provide a real impact on the last quarter with his X Factor running type of game..

THIS IN SPADES!!!

 

[Paulo]

- Any ABs back tree combination should start with Ben Smith at 15 and if Hansen insist in moving him to the sideline by having two play-makers on the field, then Beauden Barrett should play at 15, start Mo'unga at 10 and have DMac coming off the bench to provide a real impact on the last quarter with his X Factor running type of game. The current back three combination is not balanced at all and I guess that by now it became obvious that Hansen's experiments at fullback have been a failure, as while Jordie Barrett is clearly too young and inexperienced, DMac is a liability under the high ball and was exposed on too many occasions.

Seconded. Said it a few times on here and on the Roar. This also makes room for a specialist 14, not that Bender doesn't do well. But think that gives us more options than Dmac at 15. I know he has x factor, but surely a specialist 14 (eg Naholo), comes with their own x factor too.

Agree with your other points too Alex. Midfield needs more punch. Defensively they were really solid this game, but couldn't get through or around Ireland's defense enough.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Not at all. You'd know that if you could read.

Yet the only game you dont recognize is one where the all blacks lost. Go figure

 

[ncurd]

snip

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think there's been a lot of complacency and dare I say it arrogance amongst ABs fans since 2015. They failed to notice their competition in the Rugby Championship severely decreased SA went into a 2 year death spiral which they appear to have recovered from. Aus are still getting worse and worse. Argentina despite having a great RWC record don't seam to have it in the intervening years.

Combined with a massive lead in the rankings and games they couldn't lose their number 1 ranking never really came under threat.

Chicago was the first marker a top NH team won on foreign soil, the ABs came back in Dublin and it was considered a blip.

Then the Lions tour happened and well I think many people didn't want to belive a combined side of Wal/Eng/Ire was that good. In reality many NH fans from Ire and Eng think they underperformed evidence over the past two weeks suggest that may of been the case.

The last two weeks plus SA resurgence have been the wake up call. They know an England side with a fair few injuries can run them extremely close and Ireland can comprehensively best them.


They are still a very good side but they are very much mortal and they shouldn't be expecting to win every game against top tier opposition anymore.

Are they still the No. 1 side in the world? I'm a little dubious they have a 50% record against SA, Eng and Ire this year. In comparison Ireland have a 100% record against those teams with a loss away against Aus.


One thing I am certain of the NZRU needs to stop avoiding playing England and Ireland, no tours down there and playing England once in 3 years. Ireland they've come up against three times but again avoid them last winter. This cycle they've avoided playing the best and we are now seeing the problems from it.

 

[RugbyTackle91]

Lol as soon as I showed your underdog theory for the stupid 'not know anything about rugby' talk that it is, you ditch the theory and talk about something else.

So I buried your theory. Now, know your role LOL!

Haha too easy.

New Zealand are 100% underdogs to Ireland, and most people had Ireland as favourites last night. Not so sure about England/South Africa. I think it's clear these sides do not fear this all black team like they have in the past. I think the underdogs argument is irrelevant anyway because players now like sexton, Farrell, faf de Klerk and others believe they can best anyone and will take the team with them. I think it's ignorant to think professional rugby players view the all blacks as some unbeatable force.

 

[All Black]

Seconded. Said it a few times on here and on the Roar. This also makes room for a specialist 14, not that Bender doesn't do well. But think that gives us more options than Dmac at 15. I know he has x factor, but surely a specialist 14 (eg Naholo), comes with their own x factor too.

Agree with your other points too Alex. Midfield needs more punch. Defensively they were really solid this game, but couldn't get through or around Ireland's defense enough.

Yep. Bender is a 15 and nothing else.

Is Naholo injured?

 

[FrenchFan]

And as for all those naysayers and doom-prophets who were predicting the demise of the International game, its time for you all to STFU. The organisers of the 2019 RWC will be rubbing their hands together at results like these.... its gone from a predicted All Blacks' benefit to anyone's guess.

One game isn't going to reverse the trend of decline though. It's structural. You have to look at the bigger picture. It's still the same ridiculously low number of nations that can win in Japan. Sure the odds have changed, but not the number of genuine contenders.

I have no idea how the outcome of this game goes in any way towards sorting out the financial mess the PI nations are in. Or addresses Georgia's on-going exclusion from the 6N amongst others.

Lots of issues that affect the development and credibility of the test game long term and that WR have continuously brushed under the carpet from one RWC to the next.

Saying that, and to stay with the thread, congrats to Ireland on a special game and a special win!

 

[dullonien]

I think that's the first time I've seen NZ panic in the last quarter. On the 60min Mark I thought Ireland were starting to struggle with a few players pulling up with cramp etc. and NZ upping the intensity, but they failed to score a try. After that, despite there being 15min. left NZ were trying to play off slow ball inside their own 22 and it was easy for Ireland to force mistakes/force them out of play.

Ireland were great though. Fully deserved the win, and proved that they will be genuine contenders at the WC.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Ireland won all the big battles - Tadhg v Big Karl, Ryan v Rettalick, Sexton v Beauden. POM was absolutely immense. Massive psychological win yesterday and yes i think ABs have a lot to think about come 2019 and defending their crown - Read not the same player he was pre back surgery and his mind appears to be drifting towards post RWC with talk about him playing overseas. Their midfield (consistent selection) and back 3 also need to be sorted out. Still it makes it more interesting next year - Chris Rattue's comments earlier this year that they should just hand the ABs the RWC trophy now just looks more and more rediculous by the day.

 

[Chief Pete]

I have to give a special mention to Cian Healy, a couple of years ago he was rumoured to be disappearing through the back door to Worcester never to be seen again having succumbed to Jack McGrath but not so, dug his heels in and now (back) in the conversation for best LHP in the world...

 

[munstermuffin]

I have to give a special mention to Cian Healy, a couple of years ago he was rumoured to be disappearing through the back door to Worcester never to be seen again having succumbed to Jack McGrath but not so, dug his heels in and now (back) in the conversation for best LHP in the world...

100% agree and has now really went well ahead as main #1. But more impressive is how he got back from the injury to neck.

Upon rewatching game yesterday I do have few fears.
1. Best did ok but it's still clear he is fighting a battle against time. Upstairs he has it but the body can't follow suit as fast as is required anymore.
2. Our scrum and lineout really went to pot once replacements came on. Not necessarily their fault just the drop was massive on rewatching.
3. I said it yesterday and will again. That backrow was so balanced.
4. Toner was very good but is at a stage where he has 50-55mins. We need someone to be there for last 30 or so to control luneout when he departs game. Henderson is not tje man to call lineout. Not sure has James Ryan experience of it.

 

[Paulo]

Ireland won all the big battles - Tadhg v Big Karl, Ryan v Rettalick, Sexton v Beauden. POM was absolutely immense. Massive psychological win yesterday and yes i think ABs have a lot to think about come 2019 and defending their crown - Read not the same player he was pre back surgery and his mind appears to be drifting towards post RWC with talk about him playing overseas. Their midfield (consistent selection) and back 3 also need to be sorted out. Still it makes it more interesting next year - Chris Rattue's comments earlier this year that they should just hand the ABs the RWC trophy now just looks more and more rediculous by the day.

Best to just ignore Rattue. Most Kiwis do.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I want to write something not drunk and stupid but I'm in too much pain.

 

[Chief Pete]

100% agree and has now really went well ahead as main #1. But more impressive is how he got back from the injury to neck.

Upon rewatching game yesterday I do have few fears.
1. Best did ok but it's still clear he is fighting a battle against time. Upstairs he has it but the body can't follow suit as fast as is required anymore.
2. Our scrum and lineout really went to pot once replacements came on. Not necessarily their fault just the drop was massive on rewatching.
3. I said it yesterday and will again. That backrow was so balanced.
4. Toner was very good but is at a stage where he has 50-55mins. We need someone to be there for last 30 or so to control luneout when he departs game. Henderson is not tje man to call lineout. Not sure has James Ryan experience of it.

So in your opinion what is your strongest starting pack and strongest bench (forwards)? If all are fit...

 

[Which Tyler]

100% agree and has now really went well ahead as main #1. But more impressive is how he got back from the injury to neck.

I want to write something not drunk and stupid but I'm in too much pain.

How are you 2 even awake?
Shush now. Have a pee, get some water on board, and grab another 2-3 hours in bed, before a hair of the dog in front of the replay.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Best to just ignore Rattue. Most Kiwis do.

Bit us up here ignore Stephen Jones.

 

[corny]

4. Toner was very good but is at a stage where he has 50-55mins. We need someone to be there for last 30 or so to control luneout when he departs game. Henderson is not tje man to call lineout. Not sure has James Ryan experience of it.

Toner is normally an 80 minute man. Has been his entire career. I think he came off not because he was spent but because we really needed a fresh ball carrier in such an attritional game. Henderson is always our go to in these types of matches and James Ryan wasn't coming off.

As an aside...... James Ryan was top tackler and only behind Stander and Aki is terms of carries. The chap is an absolute phenomenon.

 

[Nubiwan]

Serious questions for Hansen. Is he that stupid or did he throw that game. Something was amiss. I'm not sure what but that was the worst all black performance since Chicago.

We did nothing from the set piece. Not one move. We only got forward momentum on 3 occasions but the backs still did nothing. Every timeit went out to the backs it simply went through the hands. Simple under 10s stuff.

Bearden found wanting for game management and Reid not decisive enough.

Ardie had a great game, retallick and Goodhue very active. Everyone else was half asleep. I have never seen Ben Smith so hesitant before. Except for last week, but I blamed the rain for that.

Something weird with this performance and I don't like the idea of Hansen throwing games. Richie McCaw never would have stood for it.

Honestly, I put New Zealand's "incompetencies" down to what was possible one of THE most perfect rugby performances, I have ever seen a team put on playing the ABs. I watched the game a second time over, with an Irish mate of mine, and lost count of the number of Irish players I said, "he had a good game too", so complete was their performance. I will submit that I always like seeing the underdog prevail, and that I was always anxious the ABs might still sneak a late try, but the overall tone of the match was one of complete Irish dominance. It was heroic. It was historic. Never seen the ABs so well beaten. Nothing Hansen or his team could have done about it.