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[2018 November Tests] England v South Africa (3/10/18)

Tigs Man said:
IMO Lozowski is the perfect 22 player (IMO he should be starting 12 though).
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I wanted to see this too plus teo just hasnt played and loz would work well with faz.

Did want to see this tbh, obv never came close but still

9. Spencer
10. Faz
12. Loz
13. Manu
 
The_Blindside said:
So by my count that's 8 (counting DDA) of the 23 who are black or 35%. Short of the 45% for the quota target. Of course it's a farce to set such a target.
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I thought after much sophisticated and civil discourse it was decided by the race masters that DDA was a just a tanned cracker?

TRF_heineken said:
South Africa

15 Damian Willemse, 14 S'bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Ivan van Zyl, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Duane Vermeulen, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Lood de Jager, 21 Embrose Papier, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 André Esterhuizen.
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Hmm I'm okay with Duane at 7 I guess. Did the job there for the Stormers for awhile however I can't remember him there for the Boks. I notice we have no loose forwards on the bench. I'm assuming Pieter-Steph will be moved there if need be but it's a bit of counting your chickens before they hatch. Rassie is obviously looking to smash England with a completely fresh tight 5 on the bench. I think it's safe to say that Thomas is being considered as a loose head here.

Scrum half is a worry and I think England will be targeting our 9's. Neither of them fill me with confidence. Disrupting them will go a long way to disrupting our heavies.

Willemse at 15 is an exciting prospect. He should be prepared to do his fair share of catching and clearing. I reckon England will throw him a few high pressure bombs at take it from there. He's lucky to have two very competent (but young) wingers supporting him.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Tuilagi is comfortably our best 13,
Having him on the bench to accommodate sicknote Teo is ridiculous.
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Or benched him to accomodate Slade tbh- seems like we always end up wanting Manu with ability to play 12- was Te'o a 12 or 13 for Leinster?
 
Jrexxx said:
Or benched him to accomodate Slade tbh- seems like we always end up wanting Manu with ability to play 12- was Te'o a 12 or 13 for Leinster?
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A quick Google (as in I literally looked at one team sheet) had him at 13, with Fitzgerald at 12
 
Slade needs to take this chance.

His form for Exeter justifies him keeping his place, but he really needs to show he can do it at test level.

Thus far, he's had a couple of highlight reel moments that have been overshadowed by a lot of poor-average ones. I hope the AIs are his 'coming of age'.
 
Old Hooker said:
Me too. Looking forward to having a bosher inside him....

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-dig-deep-november-international-south-africa
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According to that article, this is only the 3rd time Farrell has started at 10 in the Jones era. Really puts some context around the comments claiming that "we play best with the Ford-Farrell axis" when essentially that is the only combination that has a remotely viable sample size. I'm excited to see Farrell get a chance at 10 with a midfield partnership that looks well-balanced and I just hope he stays there for at least a bit when Tuilagi comes on.

Forecast for Twickenham is dry, cold and sunny - this should play into our favour with the more mobile pack. Would like to see Hepburn and Sinckler getting on the ball early to share the carrying workload.
 
We set a new winning record with the Ford, Farrell axis. I know it appears I keep picking you your posts but I'm not, you offer a different insight (even it a Saracens one ;-) ). We've had a tough year for sure so you're right we need to try something new, but there are many variables on a rugby field. One the the main issues is not having a ball carrier in the backs, so its easier to target Ford and Farrell, but the problem is the system at times, and the balance it that.

Farrell will stay on. Tuilagi will come on for Te'o. Ford for Slade. Then we will have our, potentially, strongest back line out.
 
We do have the Lancaster era as evidence though.
Plus every game where Farrell started we've not played well.
As noted in this topic in the 50 billion times we've had it before. We've been loosing because our forwards have been shite everything else is just noise.
 
Never been a fan of Farrell at 10 for England or the Lions.
 
ncurd said:
As noted in this topic in the 50 billion times we've had it before. We've been loosing because our forwards have been shite everything else is just noise.
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I think this is the main point and until the strategy of English rugby changes to accommodate a pack that is not always physically more dominant, we will always be at risk.

Ford-Farrell-? looks great with a dominant pack and rubbish without, we know this. Assuming we cannot guarantee a dominant pack, we need to at least try and find a combination that can generate it's own front foot ball. I think that having two play makers who offer almost nothing ball in hand is not going to achieve this, there is only room for one. Acknowledging that any fly-half and back line will have a tougher time behind a pack going backwards, I feel like the inclusion of Te'o and Tuilagi will really help, with Slade offering fare more of a running threat than Ford/Farrell.

In terms of who starts at 10, I don't think it matters overly as long as it's just one of them. I personally think Farrell is more consistent, a better leader and has fewer holes in his game. He is also goal kicker and co-captain so...

All that being said, if we can guarantee the fitness of our first choice pack including the Vunipolas and our first choice front rowers then we can do what we want in the backs because my dog would look sharp pulling the strings behind that pack.
 
Old Hooker said:
Think we were OK against New Zealand in 2012?
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I think we can all agree that was a bizarre anomaly though!

Ncurd's right though, it's just noise, the pack is where everything starts. I just always talk about the midfield because I'm a centre and it's what I know to be honest!
 
I don't like placing one game on one player but Manu was at his peak then and pretty much carried England in that 2012 game.
 
Plus there's the fact Manu reputation was built around several games in that era. Also injuries are why the reputation hasn't diminished he hasn't the chance to prove it was just a flash in the pan like everyone else involved in that game.
 
Hurray for pointless procrastination instead of working (I cheated a bit and made Whiteley go up agaisnt Curry):

1. Steven Kitsoff
2. Malcom Marx
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Pieter Steph du Toit
6. Siya Kolisi
7. Tom Curry
8. Duane Vermulen
9. Ben Youngs
10. Owen Farrel
11. Aphiwe Dyantyi
12. Ben Te'o
13. Jesse Kriel
14. Jack Nowell
15. Elliot Daly

16. Jamie George
17. Ben Moon
18. Wilcow Louw
19. RG Snyman
20. Zack Mercer
21. Danny Care
22. George Ford
23. Manu Tuilagi
 

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