[2018 November Tests] England v South Africa (3/10/18)

[Nudger]

That first possibility does have a lot of pace, however playing Ashton at FB at international seems suicide. Unless you're suggesting putting Nowell to FB, but even that doesn't fill me with confidence.

If Ashton is only there for injury cover then it's a total waste of a seat. Why not bench someone who can actually come on to make a difference. What's happened to EJs finishers? I would suggest wing is the one position that needs to e worried about the least. Why not put an extra forward in there, maybe someone distinctive in the back row?

Or a better utility back? Just seems a bit rubbish.

Ashton played fb for toulon
And sale wanted him at fb so in that respect he covers Daley if he needs to move into the centre

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Slow Friday afternoon so I thought I'd look at England's starting midfield since the start of 2009.

- We've started 18 different inside centres including 12 with 5 or fewer caps in that period. Other than Farrell, none have had more than 15 caps (in that period).
- We've started 13 different outside centres.
- Ford has 39 starts at fly half to Farrell's 25 and his win percentage is 82% to Farrell's 56%

In terms of 10, 12, 13 partnerships, we have started 42 combinations in the last decade. Nearly half of them (20) only played together for one game. The top partnerships by appearance are:

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We managed to beat them last time out

Only eight of that starting line up start tomorrow. 3 forwards and 5 backs. 12 of that match day squad aren't involved at all.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Only eight of that starting line up start tomorrow. 3 forwards and 5 backs. 12 of that match day squad aren't involved at all.

They also have Janties starting, so that's an immediate 14 point handicap.

 

[Nudger]

Only eight of that starting line up start tomorrow. 3 forwards and 5 backs. 12 of that match day squad aren't involved at all.

True but it's only prop that is weaker

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Slow Friday afternoon so I thought I'd look at England's starting midfield since the start of 2009.

- We've started 18 different inside centres including 12 with 5 or fewer caps in that period. Other than Farrell, none have had more than 15 caps (in that period).
- We've started 13 different outside centres.
- Ford has 39 starts at fly half to Farrell's 25 and his win percentage is 82% to Farrell's 56%

In terms of 10, 12, 13 partnerships, we have started 42 combinations in the last decade. Nearly half of them (20) only played together for one game. The top partnerships by appearance are:

View attachment 6906

Bring back Wilko and Tindall!

 

[TommiG88]

The negativity from our own fans is becoming fanatical.

I agree mostly with the 23, so I am looking forward to it. Shame about Tuilagi but from the sounds of it I think he's had it all week, and they were playing it by ear. Better safe than putting him out there.

 

[spartan32]

The negativity from our own fans is becoming fanatical.

I agree mostly with the 23, so I am looking forward to it. Shame about Tuilagi but from the sounds of it I think he's had it all week, and they were playing it by ear. Better safe than putting him out there.

It's not negativity. I think people are just being realistic. We are missing something like 17 players, and that's going to seriously handicap any team.

But for me the issue is more than player caps and size. It's attitude. I think the last time I saw England looking like thy really wanted it was the whitewash of Australia. Three games of pure, relentless guts from pretty much every man.

Since then to my eye they've looked lacklustre. Like they'd rather be somewhere else. There have been moments, but never sustained for the full 80. Maybe that's why they've brought Carling into the set up to try and do something about that (although I think the guys a total doosh!) if we are going to make an impact tomorrow those lads need to find something inside. On paper they've all got some good skills, but great rugby takes more than what's on a stats sheet.

 

[kesh]

They also have Janties starting, so that's an immediate 14 point handicap.

England: 15-Daly, 14-Nowell, 13-Slade, 12-Te'o, 11-May, 10-Farrell, 9-Youngs; 1-Hepburn, 2-Hartley, 3-Sinckler, 4-Itoje, 5-Kruis, 6-Shields, 7-Curry, 8-Wilson

Replacements: 16-George, 17-Moon, 18-Williams, 19-Ewels, 20-Mercer, 21-Care, 22-Ford, 23-Ashton

South Africa: 15-Willemse, 14-Nkosi, 13-Kriel, 12-De Allende, 11-Dyantyi, 10-Pollard, 9-Van Zyl, 8-Whiteley, 7-Vermeulen, 6-Kolisi, 5-PS Du Toit, 4-Etzebeth, 3-Malherbe, 2-Marx, 1-Kitshoff

Replacements: 16-Mbonambi, 17-T Du Toit, 18-Louw, 19-Snyman, 20-De Jager, 21-Papier, 22-Jantjies, 23-Esterhuizen

You actually made me look and almost bet.

 

[Oliver Madden]

I don't think England supporters are being negative. we're just realistic at the moment. we've got 2/3 of our first choice team missing. it's going to be a very tough game. the only consolation is that Le Roux and De Klerk aren't playing. if they were i'd say we'd have had no chance of winning. still think it will be a tall order in my opinion, look at the Bok front and back-rows compared to ours. I think we'll seriously struggle to compete from 1-8. we've got the edge in the backs I think but big internationals are usually won up front and SA have a clear edge there. Also hope there is more of a game plan than there was in the summer. once plan A (running the ball) stopped working we were just so clueless in terms of what we were trying to do.

 

[unrated]

Just rewatched the first test between South Africa and England in Joburg, Itoje was a penalty machine! Not rolling away: Pollard kicks at goal. 2 minutes later high tackle on Faf: Pollard kicks at goal.

 

[TommiG88]

It may be realism, but we've got a lot of changes even though forced that we wanted to see generally.

Still would have liked to seen Underhill in the set up as he offers a lot of physicality, but I expect it was him vs Wilson, and Wilson could cover 8.

My negative, it feels like Lancaster all over again, still with a main 15 and deviating a way from it, so when it comes to the world and there are a few injuries, we are left with inexperience.

 

[spartan32]

It may be realism, but we've got a lot of changes even though forced that we wanted to see generally.

Still would have liked to seen Underhill in the set up as he offers a lot of physicality, but I expect it was him vs Wilson, and Wilson could cover 8.

My negative, it feels like Lancaster all over again, still with a main 15 and deviating a way from it, so when it comes to the world and there are a few injuries, we are left with inexperience.

The issue of not experimenting enough has been raised before, and the answer Jones gives is that at international you always pick the best 23 for the day, and if that happens to always be the same then so be it.

And quite frankly I have some sympathy for him. It's not like the RFU, or fans for that matter, are very forgiving when England lose. So you can't blame a coach for not ever wanting to experiment too much, if they believe they have a winning formula.

On another note, and I'm not a stats person, however I would suspect that if you look over EJs tenure there has been a fair amount of time amount of churn of players. Certainly quite a few have trained and been given a chance to stick their hands up. EJ is a professional coach, surrounded by experience, who watches potential players like a hawk, so you've got to assume that he sees a lot more than us armchair bunch, including the impact other a player has on the team as a whole.

I suspect that's why people like Cips miss out. Talent is there, but he's somehow a disruptive influence on the team.

In any event, as I have said many times before, I don't think England's issue is skill, strength in depth, or size. What we seem to lack is passion, the one thing that can't be quantified, but when it's turned on by a team, is clear to see. What this side needs isn't a fancy new D coach for a far flung shore, what it needs is a mind coach to get these boys heads and hearts in the right place.

 

[kesh]

Just rewatched the first test between South Africa and England in Joburg, Itoje was a penalty machine! Not rolling away: Pollard kicks at goal. 2 minutes later high tackle on Faf: Pollard kicks at goal.

So is sinkler (a penalty machine). If i could bet on it i'd stick £20 quid on him getting a yellow card due to being unable to understand the situation (of getting pumped upfront).

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So is sinkler (a penalty machine). If i could bet on it i'd stick £20 quid on him getting a yellow card due to being unable to understand the situation (of getting pumped upfront).

Why are you (typing like this)?

 

[spartan32]

If you want a little nostalgic lift today, whack on sky sports. They are currently showing the 2002 England v SA match at Twickers where we smashed em.

Those were the days......

 

[kesh]

Why are you (typing like this)?

Can't explain right now (about to fly).

 

[Bada-Bing!]

If you want a little nostalgic lift today, whack on sky sports. They are currently showing the 2002 England v SA match at Twickers where we smashed em.

Those were the days......

Seems like an age ago now. 2003 will turn into our 1966.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If it goes wrong today, injuries are an easy excuse. We've lost some experience and the bench probably isn't quite as strong as we'd like. But overall we're not really as far below strength as headlines suggest.

1. Clearly we'd like at least one of Mako or Genge. But Hepburn's pretty busy in the loose and will he be really be that much worse that Mako in the tight? Bench not as strong as we're used to.
2. Everyone's available
3. Everyone's available
4 / 5 Many think Krutoje's our first choice anyway. Bench not quite as strong as usual
6. Robshaw was being phased out. Shields and Underhill were the next 2 cabs off the rank, both available.
7. Curry now seems clear first choice
8. We've lost our brick wall merchants, but maybe Wilson will bring a more all round game? V interested to see how he goes. Maybe Jones has had his hand forced into selecting that most mythical of beasts, the balanced back row. Excited to see how Mercer goes when he comes on, not really a downgrade on Simmonds.
9. Usual suspects available. Would Robson have got a look in?
10. First choices picked
11. First choice picked.
12. First choices picked. Te'o will be unfit / break but Jones likes him.
13. Got to discount Manu. JJ might be first choice, although he'd become a bit neutered in attack. Slade brings something a bit different, give him some decent ball and I'd back him over any of the others to put the wings into space. Also a better kicking game, which will be bought into play more with a non kicking 12.
14. Few people would moan at Nowell. Watson's obviously out, but 3 sprinters in the back 3 could be seen as a bit one trick and May and Daly now seem inked in. Would like to have seen big Joe on the bench ahead of Ashton.
15. Daly's going to play, it's just a question of which shirt. Brown was also available.

Saffers are shorn of key men in Faf and Willie and maybe others for all I know. While it could be a long afternoon it could also be a great opportunity for some players to lay down a real marker.

 

[Scotty]

Ashton has his shot today, needs to take it, dry weather and good for attacking rugby. Lucky to be there with manu injured and if he failes it could push big joe ahead of him for the next game. Hes there after doing well for toulon and a hat trick on his first sale appearance so im curious to see how he goes