[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 5: Argentina v New Zealand (01/10/2017)

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The current world ranking points gaps for NZ versus SA, Oz and Argentina are 10, 11 & 17 respectively. I cannot imagine a scenario where SA and Argentina don't get closer than that at some point over the next 5-10 years (the jury is out on Oz). The closer the rankings, the more competitive the RC is likely to be. Oz already put a ton of points on NZ this time around and could have sneaked a win. That is arguably more competitive than the years of English domination of 6N interspersed by the challenge of the Laporte years.

NZ blazed the trail of using forwards as offensive, running and passing weapons to create a true fifteen man attack in open play. The rest of the world is playing catchup and adapt as successfully to the rule changes that made this possible. The rest of the world knows what it has to do at junior level up and this will increasingly bear fruit.

So yes, the RC has perhaps not been the most competitive in terms of overall victory but it is a very entertaining tournament. The second Oz vs NZ test and yesterday's Boks vs Oz test were bordering on outstanding.

 

[mania]

NZ blazed the trail of using forwards as offensive, running and passing weapons to create a true fifteen man attack in open play.

this took ages to get right. gotta hand it to hansen for persisting.
so this ball in hand running rugby has always been NZ's game plan that we tried to sell to the world. NZ wanted to play this style at WC's to show that this is the game plan to follow as its exciting and entertaining. in the long run its better for rugby as it attracts the next gen of players wanting to emulate running 15 man rugby.
however the counter to this game plan has always been forward oriented rugby with a lot of kick and pressure applied. NZ has had to fight that game plan and convince the world that the way forward is running rugby.
finally the world is taking up the mantle of 15 man rugby. it wont be long until the rest of the world starts reaping the benefits of the next gen playing rugby without even blinking an eye at trying attacking rugby vs lets kick for territory.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

its a rare breed...forwards that are big enough to be dominant in the tight or when it get wet but still mobile enough to be part of that 15 man game plan. The Argies seem to be an example of falling from one side (dominant forwards) to the other (everyone can run) and have missed the sweet spot.

If i had to choose i would have a more traditional BIG forward pack and provide a solid base for the backs to work. If you go to a league style team with 15 guys playing wherever they like across the field then you're going to loose the ball at every stop in play

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

its a rare breed...forwards that are big enough to be dominant in the tight or when it get wet but still mobile enough to be part of that 15 man game plan. The Argies seem to be an example of falling from one side (dominant forwards) to the other (everyone can run) and have missed the sweet spot.

If i had to choose i would have a more traditional BIG forward pack and provide a solid base for the backs to work. If you go to a league style team with 15 guys playing wherever they like across the field then you're going to loose the ball at every stop in play

Yes. Argentina have been very forward thinking, but forgot that in order to use possession, first you must win in.

 

[AM_Bokke]

This is an excellent conversation.

A little about me 'cause I am new. While I have been a Springboks fan since 2007, having watched the RWC final at an awesome party hosted by a South African, I have only become fanatically obsessed with watching rugby in the past few months. I have always liked spectator sports but am more engaged by rugby now that I have ever been with other sports in the past.

So I have been watching 2 and 3 rugby games a day from the past few years. When I ponder the big questions in rugby today like "Is the NH better?" or "Can Ireland win the world cup?" I always end up thinking to myself that the NH just doesn't have the "athletes" compared to SH teams.

I try and think about the weather and the conditions but it is more than that I think. The NZ, SA, OZ and even ARG sides just seem more athletic than their NH counter parts. It's like when on form they will just run around the NH teams. The style of rugby that NZ has pioneered over the past few years - based on the preceding comments - is incredible. And it appears that SA, OZ and ARG are coming around to it slowly.

And I know that this is a change for SA because they won the '07 world cup without scoring a singe try. England didn't score a try either in the final. That seems unfathomable today with how NZ plays.

 

[mania]

A little about me 'cause I am new.

welcome AM_Bokke. for starters support the blacks. you'll have more hair left each season.
secondly its not the athletes that causes the differences in NH vs SH, its the philosophies. NZ tend to run the ball. with the way that ABs have been playing since 2007 they have paved the way for 15 man, running rugby. Puma's, Boks and WBs thru exposure to ABs have also taken on board that running rugby is the way to go.

you being an american need to advise your bretheren that when they finally buy into rugby that they need to look at the SH rugby despite being in the NH. rugby will be loads more fun that way.

 

[FNS]

I think there is a big "gap" in the over strategy. That being the natural physic of the players. At least for us we only have Raised and Born in Argentina and that means a type of player. We dont get that sweet spot of 100kg yet speed of center or the 120 and speed of flanker in the quantities needed to field a proper team and over strategy. While it can be archived to some degree with youth training, we cant compete with some nations and its fine.

I think this will apply to several country's that will have to adapt to the new way of playing rugby. Not all can play or archive to be NZ. We have to find a way to run in our terms if not we are doom.

 

[AM_Bokke]

welcome AM_Bokke. for starters support the blacks. you'll have more hair left each season.
secondly its not the athletes that causes the differences in NH vs SH, its the philosophies. NZ tend to run the ball. with the way that ABs have been playing since 2007 they have paved the way for 15 man, running rugby. Puma's, Boks and WBs thru exposure to ABs have also taken on board that running rugby is the way to go.

you being an american need to advise your bretheren that when they finally buy into rugby that they need to look at the SH rugby despite being in the NH. rugby will be loads more fun that way.

Oh, I put athletes in quotes because I know that's not the reason. The SH playing style just makes the players look like more fit specimens.

Yeah, I have never played rugby but wish I knew about the sport when I was younger. I want to get my daughter into it. She likes to both run and wrestle

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

welcome AM_Bokke. for starters support the blacks. you'll have more hair left each season.
secondly its not the athletes that causes the differences in NH vs SH, its the philosophies. NZ tend to run the ball. with the way that ABs have been playing since 2007 they have paved the way for 15 man, running rugby. Puma's, Boks and WBs thru exposure to ABs have also taken on board that running rugby is the way to go.

you being an american need to advise your bretheren that when they finally buy into rugby that they need to look at the SH rugby despite being in the NH. rugby will be loads more fun that way.

Steady on there. The Pro14 has statistics that indicates more "positive play" than even Super Rugby, although the skill levels will not match the NZ franchises.

There are Irish, Scottish and Welsh clubs that play very expansive rugby. Italy have now joined those ranks with Zebre. We are all slowly realising that with the current rules the way to success is to focus less on the set piece and make sure you score tries.

 

[petite]

Guys some people even the press are saying that the all blacks where just having fun in the SHthat they where unrespectfull to the pumas and slowed down on purpose.
(sobraban el partido) in spanish. just making jokes and so and that is why somo or the arg players where angry too.
it did look a bit like that now that i thik about it. but not at the moment during the game. but the second half was too bad even for the AB b team
what do you guys think ? kiwis please?

 

[Zapphod]

I really can't see why they wouldn't be able to maintain their peak of performance. The current lack of challengers is helping their case. Any able challenger would only spur them on. Now they know they could win the RC just fielding their B team.

So what is the answer to this so-called lack of challengers?
Should we start fielding two teams in the RC just to break up the player pool a bit or until the other teams catch up?

I really don't think the gap between the teams is as great as the scorelines suggest but I am starting to struggle to maintain an interest in the game when the result now seems like a foregone conclusion.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't subscribe to the opinion that there is a "best" way to play rugby at all, I think positive play will stop you from being upset by worse teams but a bit of "negative" rugby will beat teams at your level. New Zealand are leading the way right now with their 15 man running rugby but they only play that when they can and certainly didn't for the majority of the match in Dublin and in Lions tests two and three which saw them struggling at times because they were met by teams who gave them no freedom at the breakdown while maintaining a wide blitz defence with a 9 and 15 who covered the backfield well enough so they couldn't utilise the chip and chase; they didn't play attacking rugby here because when they tried to against such a system that was functioning they got whacked in Chicago. They won one of these four games because the opposition couldn't get past their own ferocious defence, they lost the possession battle 66-34 an territory 70-30 whereas and only ran 100 more metres than Ireland (~320-~420) whereas in the Chicago test possession and territory were equal and they ran over 500 metres compared to less than 200 from Ireland. We saw it again against the Lions that when their backs were against the wall NZ were happy to give the opposition the ball and strangle their attack while trying to force a mistake, its the exact type of "negative" rugby that their opposition can utilise to beat them if executed well, the difference being that its much harder to execute v NZ than it is for NZ to do to anyone else.

I'd argue that the aforementioned defence first style is a more effective way to win a game against teams of equal skill level or teams slightly better than yours, what makes NZ great with their 15 man running game is that it makes it almost impossible for teams who shouldn't really be beating you to get close because any bit of disorganisation will result in desperate defending that will tire a team out or result in a score, this is why NZ seem to always have a game wrapped up by halftime or run away with it at halftime. On the other end of this spectrum I'll take the worst of what I'll call rugby's "elite" (Read as NZ or those capable of beating them) sides, which I believe to be Ireland. Ireland beat New Zealand and lost to Scotland and Wales within the space of six months, the reason being that, in the matches they lost, they couldn't run away with games or leave teams tired enough to capitalise on mistakes towards the end of the game. If they could introduce an effective 15 man running game that would certainly help but if they look to their elite neighbours there's also evidence that they don't need to take that approach, England's front five aren't world class ball players (Itoje probably will be before long) they are four imposing, world class athletes and Dan Cole who can cause opposition packs all world's of trouble and allow their two fly halves get the ball out to their electric 13 and back three, who again aren't world class ball players, to cause havoc with their running game. The unanswered question with them is whether or not they can beat NZ and it'd be a stupid assumption to make that they couldn't when two inferior sides in Ireland and the Lions could. So I certainly think it's possible to be the best without NZ's seemingly unstructured "total rugby" mayhem by going the other way and being a supremely structured outfit and having the players to execute whatever style you choose, and what I currently see outside of my three "elite" sides is that they're all trying to get a balance between the two rather than picking one or the other and perfecting it, or in NZ's case attempting to perfect both, they're mistakes came when they were frugal on D while trying to play like the Globetrotters with the ball v Lions and then sticking to their running game when it wasn't working in Chicago.

 

[FNS]

Guys some people even the press are saying that the all blacks where just having fun in the SHthat they where unrespectfull to the pumas and slowed down on purpose.
(sobraban el partido) in spanish. just making jokes and so and that is why somo or the arg players where angry too.
it did look a bit like that now that i thik about it. but not at the moment during the game. but the second half was too bad even for the AB b team
what do you guys think ? kiwis please?

Respect is earned. If the Pumas feel touched then they have to stop making a fouls of themselves.

 

[mania]

Oh, I put athletes in quotes because I know that's not the reason. The SH playing style just makes the players look like more fit specimens.
Yeah, I have never played rugby but wish I knew about the sport when I was younger. I want to get my daughter into it. She likes to both run and wrestle

i didnt play american football until i was in my late 20's then i played for 11 years. i wish i had played that in my teens.
difference in fitness is due to the philosophy.
i do recommend that your daughter play. it'll open the world to her in scholarships and enjoyment.
i dont wanna sound like a conceited rugby head but rugby has a lot of good values that players learn. one of the biggest lessons for life is complete and utter respect for the ref. ref is sancrosact in rugby and most smart players learn to respect and speak politely to the ref.
i train my kids to always say please thankyou and sir when addressing the ref.

 

[mania]

Steady on there. The Pro14 has statistics that indicates more "positive play" than even Super Rugby, although the skill levels will not match the NZ franchises.

There are Irish, Scottish and Welsh clubs that play very expansive rugby. Italy have now joined those ranks with Zebre. We are all slowly realising that with the current rules the way to success is to focus less on the set piece and make sure you score tries.

sorry not a statistics junkie. every statistic needs to be justified defeating the purpose of statistics. imo.
but i was talking test rugby

 

[mania]

Guys some people even the press are saying that the all blacks where just having fun in the SHthat they where unrespectfull to the pumas and slowed down on purpose.
(sobraban el partido) in spanish. just making jokes and so and that is why somo or the arg players where angry too.
it did look a bit like that now that i thik about it. but not at the moment during the game. but the second half was too bad even for the AB b team
what do you guys think ? kiwis please?

no way petite. for a lot of players of PI persuasion its not enough to win. u have to win and look good doing it. ABs did not look good that 2ndH. no way would the ABs disrespect and take the puma's lightly.

 

[Nubiwan]

yup and from that training with each other comes team work. imo the most important component of a winning team.
so u gotta weigh up; are you going to select euro based players who cant make trainings? whilst the domestic players can easily come together and get to know each other?
i reckon argentiona have the right policy.
selecting overseas players is a must for these minnow countries but it is from neccessity. it doesnt work for SouthAfrica, Austalia, Samoa etc

A Canadian player playing in Europe is actually closer to Eastern Canada than his compatriots in Vancouver. The issue of travel and squad training together does not disappear because all the players are in the same country. This applies to both Canada and the USA. Argentina has a greater issue of distance from Europe. Teams like Canada can ill afford to have such experienced players. Certainly at World Cup time.

 

[Nubiwan]

I don't think that this is exactly right. UAR is an enterprise and is therefore most interested in their own financial interests. In addition to the Pumas they also own the Jaguares. It only makes sense that they want to align the incentives of their employees to match theirs and they don't want their employees simultaneously working for their competitors.

I am unaware of how the UAR works. I was rather speaking on behalf of their North American counterparts, who cannot afford the luxury of not playing their professionals overseas. I'd suggest Argentina has a similar predicament.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Guys some people even the press are saying that the all blacks where just having fun in the SHthat they where unrespectfull to the pumas and slowed down on purpose.
(sobraban el partido) in spanish. just making jokes and so and that is why somo or the arg players where angry too.
it did look a bit like that now that i thik about it. but not at the moment during the game. but the second half was too bad even for the AB b team
what do you guys think ? kiwis please?

I don't think so. If there is one thing that characterizes the ABs is that they are merciless. When they see blood they go for the jugular, the game against RSA comes to mind.
I sincerely think they had a very bad day at buenos aires and we had a decent second half.

@The Alpha Bro give your post, a quick question: ABs aside, how would you rate Ireland vs say, the springboks?

 

[FrenchFan]

So what is the answer to this so-called lack of challengers?

It's up to the other nations to catch up - well those who can...

Should we start fielding two teams in the RC just to break up the player pool a bit or until the other teams catch up?

I don't think that's an option because I'd imagine they will want to field their best team as often as possible. They can't let their best players sit back and relax.
When I said NZ could win with their B team I meant because of their depth - doesn't mean they actually will or should field a B side.

I really don't think the gap between the teams is as great as the scorelines suggest but I am starting to struggle to maintain an interest in the game when the result now seems like a foregone conclusion.

well yes it is. The gap is what the scoreline tells you. NZ have regularly put on +50pt on RC opponents and others. The gap has increased between NZ and the rest. But it's tight btw say Aus and SA who just drew twice.