[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[Horacito]

Looking foward to this, guys. Probably best match we'll see this year (in Six Nations).

I expect great clash of packs. I think Ireland has the best pack overall, right now I rank them as the best when it comes to set pieces; in fact, all of their top of the notch competitive team comes from that: get good balls, fast balls, use their talents in the backs and Johnny Sexton scoring the kicks. In the other side, England with their terrific maul, specially that 5-meter maul, is just tremendous, probably one of the most effective formations in international at this point.

Irish saw themselves in a tough spot simply by french defense and small tricks to slow the ball; they should be afraid of the English, because the're much tougher than french, they will not hesitate, they will be tenacious, they will strive and do everything to succed, they will not desperate like les bleus. And England should fear, for they are going to face which I think is the best team in the international circuit at the time; I said it before, and I'll said it again: should Ireland have faced the AB's in this past AI, they would have won.

Great day for rugby lovers.

Post data: of course I'm going with the irish.

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't think Murray's been setting the world alight, but to say he's dropped below Ben Youngs is a big call. Did you see some of his passing against Italy?!

Many he thought he was possible MOTM in both games he's played. A lot gave him the MOTM vs Italy and he's performed excellent for a guy who had injury.

 

[Conal]

Many he thought he was possible MOTM in both games he's played. A lot gave him the MOTM vs Italy and he's performed excellent for a guy who had injury.

i thought he wasnt injured MM!!!!!

 

[munstermuffin]

i thought he wasnt injured MM!!!!!

Murray ??? He missed our European games with his neck. Never said he wasn't injured and well fact is he missed game time.

 

[goodNumber10]

Playing the last few weeks (and excelling) at 13 will surely help him there?

I think Nowell is the closest thing England have to Leigh Halfpenny (without the goalkicking I presume) who can literally play as well across the back three. My biggest fear is that he gets labelled a Utility player and never gets to build in one position.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Many he thought he was possible MOTM in both games he's played. A lot gave him the MOTM vs Italy and he's performed excellent for a guy who had injury.

I meant Youngs's passing against Italy - as in, it was terrible. Murray was indeed good in both games (in my team of the week for week 2) just not the heights he hit in the autumn - should've added "by his own standards" for clarity.

 

[goodNumber10]

You really think left and right wing are so different? I can see that you get used to tackling more with one shoulder, stepping off one foot etc., and the ball is passed better right to left (which is why teams are more likely to pick a finisher on the left and a midfield crasher on the right) but I don't see why a left wing would defend more space or field longer kicks.

yep.

You'll find with most teams that play a pendulum your 15 will (generally) tend to sit closer to the 14 and track the ball across (from left to right) or sit behind the 13 when going from right to left. This means he'll leave the 11 with more space to defend, he will sit deeper than the midfield where 14 will tend to defend like a 3rd centre. it's also normally easier for a kicker to isolate the space between 15 and 11 which is why you'll see your 11 turning and chasing corner kicks a lot more than a 14 and having to play it.

 

[munstermuffin]

I meant Youngs's passing against Italy - as in, it was terrible. Murray was indeed good in both games (in my team of the week for week 2) just not the heights he hit in the autumn - should've added "by his own standards" for clarity.

No he's not at Novembers best but he's still performing well considering everything.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Agreed.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually thinking about it he's been clearly the best scrum-half in the competition so far, playing below himself. Fair play to him.

 

[munstermuffin]

I address that in the actual article, Youngs has impressed more than Murray, he has made it in to both of my team of the weeks so far and whilst Murray before the competition was a better scrum half in my eyes he hasn't impressed in this tournament so far.

Just on this. A strange stat but Youngs has made the most unforced errors of all 9s and 21s in 6nations so far. FWIW Parra made least.

 

[munstermuffin]

Agreed.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually thinking about it he's been clearly the best scrum-half in the competition so far, playing below himself. Fair play to him.

But he's had issues with lack of game time and injury. But he's certainly showed he's probably the best kicking 9 in world and is a brilliant all rounder (not best passer) but still has stuff to work on. In my own opinion from working with Munster and watching Conor since his Garryowen days he isn't the best decision maker. And when there isn't an influential option outside him and the onus falls on him to make the calls his game does suffer.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Nowell is the closest thing England have to Leigh Halfpenny (without the goalkicking I presume) who can literally play as well across the back three. My biggest fear is that he gets labelled a Utility player and never gets to build in one position.

From Baxters comments it kind of seems like he wants to keep him at 13, with Slade/Hill at 10/12.
With Campagnaro on his way that seems unlikely though. Maybe he's slightly regretting that signing now?

Probably a discussion for another thread though

 

[lucky number 7]

I think Nowell is the closest thing England have to Leigh Halfpenny (without the goalkicking I presume) who can literally play as well across the back three. My biggest fear is that he gets labelled a Utility player and never gets to build in one position.

Really exciting player. Himself and May are my pick of the wingers , flawed in ways but produce moments of magic. May's pace alone makes him absolutely lethal in the final quarter of the game.

 

[Jockstap]

So looks like 106 kg Jordi Murphy is going to start against 126 kg Billy Vunipola this week, hmm.

Is there a smaller international No 8 out there at the moment I wonder?

 

[bw245]

So looks like 106 kg Jordi Murphy is going to start against 126 kg Billy Vunipola this week, hmm.

Is there a smaller international No 8 out there at the moment I wonder?

Just like Basteraud's weight did not really have influence, this won't either. Weight isn't everything.

 

[Peat]

All of this talk of couldn't, can't, won't - reminds me of pre Wales vs England 2013. Everyone agreed it was going to be tight but the vast majority of England fans, myself included, were adamant there'd be no drubbing. We'd shown ourselves to be too tight, too resilient.

80 minutes later...

Ireland could physically dominate us. And we could physically dominate them. They could put a score on us and vice versa - all it takes for a few things in the gameplan to go very wrong, a few clinical/lucky moments and it happens.

Physical dominance - that's a product of hitting your opponent harder than they can hit you - and that has much to do with the speed and angle at which you hit. Either team could get it. Both teams have areas where they will look at their player and a set of opposition players and think "That's an area we can gain an advantage". Billy Vunipola isn't going to produce line-break after line-break because he's a good 15 or so kg heavier than any of Ireland's back-row - nor is Henshaw going to do the same with Ford - or Bowe on May/Nowell, or Haskell and Attwood on the Irish back-row and so on. There are too many people around those people to help. But - if they get to hit those points at speed, then they will bending the gainline and sucking in players. That's what will allow people like Zebo and Joseph to find the space to sparkle. But it will all come down to line speed and taking the ball at pace, clearing the ruck well; the big men will do prodigious things, but without these things, you will not notice the majority of them.

Finally; too much being read into games against Italy, where neither side tried their harder, and games against a mostly supine France, and in which England were gelling for the first time. No doubt after the game you'll be able to see threads running through all the games. But some times thing will be different. There will be a step up in intensity, changes in emphasis.

End of the day, not sure I trust anyone who thinks they know what's going to happen. Too tight, too many variables, too much potential on both teams to do immense things.

From Baxters comments it kind of seems like he wants to keep him at 13, with Slade/Hill at 10/12.
With Campagnaro on his way that seems unlikely though. Maybe he's slightly regretting that signing now?

Probably a discussion for another thread though

I think it's an ideal situation for Exeter and shows the growth of the club to have two young internationals competing for one shirt. If Campagnaro turns out to be stronger, then Nowell can simply shuffle out to the wing. If he doesn't, if he needs time to adjust, Baxter has a perfectly good 10-12-13 and can leave Whitten on the wing. If both get injured, he can play Whitten or Slade there - just like he could at 12 too. It gives Exeter monstrously strong depth without the usual wage bill; the only real possible cost is reliance on versatility stunting player growth (hasn't yet) or pee'ing off a long term player and making him leave (hasn't yet).

 

[munstermuffin]

All of this talk of couldn't, can't, won't - reminds me of pre Wales vs England 2013. Everyone agreed it was going to be tight but the vast majority of England fans, myself included, were adamant there'd be no drubbing. We'd shown ourselves to be too tight, too resilient.

80 minutes later...

Ireland could physically dominate us. And we could physically dominate them. They could put a score on us and vice versa - all it takes for a few things in the gameplan to go very wrong, a few clinical/lucky moments and it happens.

Physical dominance - that's a product of hitting your opponent harder than they can hit you - and that has much to do with the speed and angle at which you hit. Either team could get it. Both teams have areas where they will look at their player and a set of opposition players and think "That's an area we can gain an advantage". Billy Vunipola isn't going to produce line-break after line-break because he's a good 15 or so kg heavier than any of Ireland's back-row - nor is Henshaw going to do the same with Ford - or Bowe on May/Nowell, or Haskell and Attwood on the Irish back-row and so on. There are too many people around those people to help. But - if they get to hit those points at speed, then they will bending the gainline and sucking in players. That's what will allow people like Zebo and Joseph to find the space to sparkle. But it will all come down to line speed and taking the ball at pace, clearing the ruck well; the big men will do prodigious things, but without these things, you will not notice the majority of them.

Finally; too much being read into games against Italy, where neither side tried their harder, and games against a mostly supine France, and in which England were gelling for the first time. No doubt after the game you'll be able to see threads running through all the games. But some times thing will be different. There will be a step up in intensity, changes in emphasis.

End of the day, not sure I trust anyone who thinks they know what's going to happen. Too tight, too many variables, too much potential on both teams to do immense things.



I think it's an ideal situation for Exeter and shows the growth of the club to have two young internationals competing for one shirt. If Campagnaro turns out to be stronger, then Nowell can simply shuffle out to the wing. If he doesn't, if he needs time to adjust, Baxter has a perfectly good 10-12-13 and can leave Whitten on the wing. If both get injured, he can play Whitten or Slade there - just like he could at 12 too. It gives Exeter monstrously strong depth without the usual wage bill; the only real possible cost is reliance on versatility stunting player growth (hasn't yet) or pee'ing off a long term player and making him leave (hasn't yet).

Any for sense spoken and your banned

But you are spot on there's so much variables that anything can happen. And people say it'll be Billy V vs Jordi. If it was I'd back Billy V 7 days a week BUT Schmidt is clever and knows it's probably be that result too. But he sort of ignores 6/7/8 roles and well combines backrows roles eg POM will be doing some of SOBs work where SOB will cover some of 8s role and Jordi will perform some flanker roles. It's very interchangeable.

 

[glawsfan]

I can see Ireland winning this quite comfortably to be honest. I think without May and Brown and replacing them with Nowell and Goode you take away a lot of attacking threat. The only way I can see England winning is if it turns into a scrappy forward orientated game where they probably have the edge.

As for May being dropped I think it is dissapointing. This is one of the main reasons why I can't see England winning the WC as their is no consistency in the team being picked. Right now Lancaster should almost know his team yet he seems to have as much clue as he did 2 years ago. I also think he is pressured into decisions by the media funny how May was widely criticised for missing 1 tackle yet Watson who missed 2 never got brought up once? Also apparantly May was the 3rd key influencer in the Italy game not bad for someone who apparantly had an awful game. After arguably being our best player in the Autumn Internationals I think it is extremely harsh to replace him with someone who has a handful tries in his whole career I wouldn't mind if he was being replaced by a world class player but Nowell is no improvement. Anyway i'm sure Ireland are delighted as I'm sure they would rather have Nowell lining up against them than May.

 

[Every Time Ref]

But he's had issues with lack of game time and injury. But he's certainly showed he's probably the best kicking 9 in world and is a brilliant all rounder (not best passer) but still has stuff to work on. In my own opinion from working with Munster and watching Conor since his Garryowen days he isn't the best decision maker. And when there isn't an influential option outside him and the onus falls on him to make the calls his game does suffer.

I haven't especially noticed him as a poor decision maker, maybe because Ireland play a fairly simple game plan based around his biggest strength - and as you say, playing alongside Sexton. I do think that at full fitness you have the best half-back pair in the world at the moment, just hoping that the slight rustiness of both players isn't over by this Saturday!

What exactly do you do at Munster?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What exactly do you do at Munster?

If the players are stiff he rubs them.