[2015 Six Nations] England vs Italy (Round 2)

[Tony Manx]

Even with the magnificence of Sergio Parisse, and the power of Castrogiavianni, Italy were 'smeared across the park' by an England team that took its sweet time hitting it's straps, like warm butter over toast.
Italy were destroyed and England could have doubled that score if they were on their mettle from the get go.
Romania, Spain and Georgia would greatly benefit from being in a second tier tournament with Italy as the big team, even if they stay as the whipping boys in the 6Nations.

Good column in a Sunday paper today advocating a play off at home for the bottom team in the 6N with the side who finish top of the next tier with the winner playing in the 6N the next season............... I think that would be sensible and give impetus to the junior nations who at the moment can see only a glass ceiling!!

 

[ncurd]

I think Scotland are the issue there. World Rugby probably would live the loss of Italy but to loose a home nation regardless of what is deserved probably worries them.

I'd be pro that decision but powers that be probably not.

 

[Tony Manx]

I think Scotland are the issue there. World Rugby probably would live the loss of Italy but to loose a home nation regardless of what is deserved probably worries them.

I'd be pro that decision but powers that be probably not.

Jeez....whilst I could see Scotland with the wooden spoon at some stage again and having to be in the play offs, it will be some time before they would be beaten in a play off surely?

 

[ncurd]

They've has the wooden spoon a few times but I think it's more out of concern they'd loose them rather than actually happening.

 

[goodNumber10]

Good column in a Sunday paper today advocating a play off at home for the bottom team in the 6N with the side who finish top of the next tier with the winner playing in the 6N the next season............... I think that would be sensible and give impetus to the junior nations who at the moment can see only a glass ceiling!!

I've advocated the playoff system in the past but it will never happen.

There is an article in the rugby world with yer man inharge of the 6nations, he rightly points out that scotland have invested a lot of time and money in making the competition what it is. he also basically says whilst never say never the 6 nations is going to remain ring fenced for the home nations, france and italy.

It took france 30 years to get competitive in the 6nations at a time when there were no coaches, leagues or any other competitive rugby... italy need nothing but time.

 

[oldprussians]

I've advocated the playoff system in the past but it will never happen.

There is an article in the rugby world with yer man inharge of the 6nations, he rightly points out that scotland have invested a lot of time and money in making the competition what it is. he also basically says whilst never say never the 6 nations is going to remain ring fenced for the home nations, france and italy.

It took france 30 years to get competitive in the 6nations at a time when there were no coaches, leagues or any other competitive rugby... italy need nothing but time.

It took France 30 years to win a game... Italy have done more than that, and have had games taken off them against Ireland one year.. and many more that if they had hit kicks they would have won.

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Jeez....whilst I could see Scotland with the wooden spoon at some stage again and having to be in the play offs, it will be some time before they would be beaten in a play off surely?

Before you all go all Italy would go down.. .wait till the end of the season.

BTW I am all for promotion and relegation. It would be over 2 years as the 6NB is over 2 years. and yes a play off would be good.

And with a fair ref let me tell you Scotland would struggle v Georgia..

 

[Tony Manx]

It took France 30 years to win a game... Italy have done more than that, and have had games taken off them against Ireland one year.. and many more that if they had hit kicks they would have won.

Still no reason why a play off should not be brought in!

As for the "Scots have done so much for the 6N"...........as did Accrington Stanley for football but times change! It could even be France that would be in the play off this year had it been introduced!!

I do agree with GN10 though that the vested interests will prevent it from happening in the near future but someday, someday!!!

 

[TheSaffycen]

It took France 30 years to win a game... Italy have done more than that, and have had games taken off them against Ireland one year.. and many more that if they had hit kicks they would have won.

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Before you all go all Italy would go down.. .wait till the end of the season.

BTW I am all for promotion and relegation. It would be over 2 years as the 6NB is over 2 years. and yes a play off would be good.

And with a fair ref let me tell you Scotland would struggle v Georgia..

Last time they played Scotland beat them 15-6. It was one of the worst performances they've ever had, with a pretty poor coaching team. Though I respect Georgia and they would go toe to toe with any pack in the world, they haven't a back line to challenge any of the 6 nations teams. They lost 9-23 at home to Tonga, where as Scotland beat Tonga 37-12.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

It took France 30 years to win a game... Italy have done more than that, and have had games taken off them against Ireland one year.. and many more that if they had hit kicks they would have won.

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Before you all go all Italy would go down.. .wait till the end of the season.

BTW I am all for promotion and relegation. It would be over 2 years as the 6NB is over 2 years. and yes a play off would be good.

And with a fair ref let me tell you Scotland would struggle v Georgia..

Um..... what if i told you that we wont ?

 

[Willodell100]

Again I would change as little as possible v Ireland.

It looks like Mike Brown might miss out with the new protocols. Opposed to a few on here I like Goode (I really rate Pennell too). I'm not sure where the hostility comes from?

But I think he does the FB basics better than most (high ball, positioning, cultured right peg) but carrying on from SL's 'point of difference' chat Goode is a very intelligent footballer and comfortably steps up to 1st receiver if Ford is at the bottom of a ruck (which is a bit of issue before 36 came on).

Also he may not have the pace of Foden or force of running of Brown but he does have a mazy style of running that is very effective and he scans defences better than most.

Having said all of this I would not be at all upset if Pennell was brought in as he is everything Goode is and he always seems to beat the first tackler.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I like the idea of a playoff in theory but in practice I think it won't work. Georgia and Italy would essentially play each other every year and I think the 6N team would win 90% of the time. In the time they didn't, I think they would be right back in the year after. Doesn't solve the problem of having a 6th nation that realistically can't hope for more than the odd upset.

 

[Tony Manx]

I like the idea of a palyoff in theory but in practice I think it won't work. Georgia would essentially join the 6N every time and Italy leave, Georgia would then get thrashed in the 6N and Italy would win the lower division. I think those 2 would constantly flip every year.

Is that a good or bad thing? Personally I think it would give encouragement to Georgia and a wake up call to Italy. Besides, I can see at least Scotland having the odd chance at dropping into a play off!!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Editted my comment before seeing your reply Manx but no, I don't think it would help either side. The gulf in talent between the 6N and tier 2 is too large, a team that loses everything in the 6N can win everything in the tier below. Teams need to play other teams their level to really develop and Italy and Georgia are kind of in limbo, too good for one lot but too bad for the other lot.

 

[Peat]

Goode is unpopular as his first receiver qualities were never used in international rugby and his style of running wasn't effective either, at least to most people's minds. Throw in the fact that he's not the best one on one tackler and lots of people are done with him. I would consider myself in that, by and large, but if you're down 2 full-backs and you urgently need someone who will be in the right place at international level, then he would seem to be your man.



As for play-offs/relegation... me, personally, I think there needs to be a concrete case made for it improving the Six Nations and the teams involved in the process. And in all the talk, I've never seen one. I've seen a lot of ifs, maybes and coulds, but that goes both ways. There is an awful lot that could go wrong with in terms of nations suffering from fluctuating finances and interest levels. That's not just the teams at risk of relegation/promotion either - if Italy go down and Georgia come up, who makes up the shortfall in TV payments that will affect the other five nations? That's the big difference between, say, Scotland and Accrington Stanley - Scotland still bring money to the table. Losing Scotland would be a serious short term financial hit for the likes of Ireland and Wales.

I appreciate that's on the conservative side of things, but I think we are a young professional sport and should move carefully to shore up the good work done so far, rather than risk losing what we have through over-extending. It seems far safer to be patient with Italy, to try and rebuild Scotland, and to find ways of strengthening the 6N B sides ahead of opening up the game further. Maybe funding them to run annually rather than bi-annually would be a good start.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Play off aside, Romania, Georgia and Spain/Portugal need to have a regular competition.
It will attract sponsorship and allow them to grow the sport in their own countries.
Beating Scotland?
Perhaps in many years to come, but not in the next decade or two, more likely to be Italy.

 

[Zed]

I'm worried Lancaster will move JJ to the wing to accommodate Barritt to the starting 15 v Ireland.

For Ireland I'd bring Nowell in for May and start Twelvetrees and JJ in centre. Lawes or Parling on the bench too. Ewers to bench instead of Croft.

That would be a typically English thing to do and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. It would be a shame though, he's great to watch.

 

[Hap]

My dears, it's hard to say but the real reason why Italy has been accepted in the 6N is money. And that's why we'll never be replaced in the tournament.
Italy guarantees money from tv rights, money for moving people from and to Italy before and after the games and a easy logistic combination for the teams.
Or do you think that Georgia or Romania, with all my respect, could even compete on this 3 issues?
There is nothing about, let me say, "democratisation" of rugby, nothing at all. If it would be that, we would have seen at least, after 15 years, an italian referee for some matches of the 6N. But maybe there is someone who thinks we are not even able to referee a game.

Talking about the sport side: we earned our presence in the tournament in the 90's when we were a batter team than now.
We are surely improving slowly maybe, but don't forget we have beaten, since 2011, France 2 times, Scotland and Ireland. A little bit more of respect, I think, it would be nice.

The only alternative is getting back to the 5 Nations, and I can't really predict if it would be a disaster for us. Look Argentina, they are a great team with a great base movement of players that I really admire and they builded it without being involved in any of these tournaments. I really hope we'll take some kind of Argentinian way.

Anyway, we give the better of ourselves when we are under negative judgement like this. I don't think we are going to win against Scotland or France, but surely you'll see something better vs Wales in Rome.
Cheers.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Who's the next best English 15 under the high ball?
Whoever this man is, he needs to play against Ireland!
Pennell is an excellent player, but bringing him straight in to make the jump from the Championship to international level seems....foolish!

Agree with @ratsapprentice - Ireland are going to be kicking a lot and i think this will include not only the up and under but little chips over the top, grubbers within the English 22 - and for this reason we really cannot afford to have someone so flat-footed and slow to react as Goode...not to mention ponderously slow!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Watson is very good under the high ball, as is Nowell.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Watson is very good under the high ball, as is Nowell.

Watsons great, but I was thinking and hoping we could preserve the original positions of our players without having to move too many guys around. Therefore i would prefer to bring in Nowell at 15 than to move Watson there.

Unfortunately, Lancaster has stated clear as day that Goode will be his next choice:

Alex Goode would certainly be the next full-back in line," said Lancaster.
"We still have high regard for Jack Nowell and we'll be watching his game. We're hopeful it won't come to that but it would be a competition between Alex Goode, Mike and Anthony covering 15.
"We very much see Anthony as a winger in this team but he could cover there. Jack Nowell is the other back three option we are going to consider over the next two weeks."