[2015 Six Nations] England vs Italy (Round 2)

[Peat]

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he played Goode and, in some ways, I'd be quite relieved to be honest.

 

[j'nuh]

For me, the players that I'd consider changing are Hartley, Kruis, Croft, Youngs, Burrell and May.

Hartley: Great in the set piece but really doesn't have anything going for him after that. The problem is that it isn't like Tom Youngs has shown his carrying game all that much in the last couple of games either. A bit of an embarrassment of a lack of riches going on here, so Hartley stays... for now.

Kruis: Solid, unremarkable. Lawes/Parling are in when back for me.

Croft: Only on the list because we should have a specialist lock on the bench

Youngs: Brilliant last week, pretty dodgy this week. I don't know whether he should stay or go.

Burrell: Still not convinced by him. His carrying is pretty decent, I just don't think he's all that in defence. On Twelvetrees' performance, I'd have him ahead.

May: Definitely shouldn't lose his place if Brown drops out. An entirely new back three, position-for-position, just wouldn't be sensible for me. Much more difficult decision if Brown is concussion-free. I would keep him, but I can understand why people wouldn't want him either. He has the nimbleness and defensive ability to be a top player, but he does seem to make attacking blunders every now and then. And it's not for a lack of skill either, just that his mind goes missing in the moment. If a coach can sort that out, I think he could be amongst the best wingers in the world.

edit: for all said about May's defence, it was Watson that missed three tackles, May not missing one. I suppose you could say that May's defensive lapse is the one that mattered, but I'm not sure that that's a compelling point for what we should pick next time round.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I would like to see @TRF_Olly idea of having Pennel. Looks class every time he plays but I would really like to see him at a big club, Tigers after Taits leaving ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd definitely consider Wigglesworth for the starting shirt next week.
He does the basics of being a 9 very well - maybe not as good a sniper as Youngs, but can still run the ball.
However with the kicking form Sexton showed today we're going to be exiting our half/22 quite often, and I'd feel much better with Wiggy's boot as a clearing option too.
Youngs has put in some decent box kicks the last two games, but he's also put in some mares, including that one today that basically went vertical, when we were on our 22 line.
For the same reason I'd consider 36 for the 12 shirt over Burrell.

Horses for courses, and on today's evidence a trip to Dublin is going to be a proper slog.

I would like to see @TRF_Olly idea of having Pennel. Looks class every time he plays but I would really like to see him at a big club, Tigers after Taits leaving ?

I'm pretty sure Pennell has signed a long deal with Worcester - something like up to the end of 2017. He signed it after Worcester were basically confirmed for the drop last year, so I imagine he's very happy there. Though this was before he was on the England radar.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Also Ireland like doing kicks over the top with a chaser ready to either compete or tackle the player straight away. They are very fast on here and catch teams out where the players amble over to support. England are one of these teams, at times the speed our players get to a breakdown is shocking. I can understand later game when people are tired but we do it for the entire game. Ireland basically win on penalties and forcing the opposition to concede them. If we knuckle down on our discipline and don't let the Irish force penalties, they will struggle. Also we can learn from them what a bloody kick chase means, they are by far the best at this in the NH. We do the kick but where is the damn chase? It's not like May and Watson aren't fast enough to do it.

Trust in the defense and maybe keep the 9 behind the gain line to take any chips over the top or offer support to others who catch as that is how Ireland get most of their forward momentum. Having said that, I'd be a lot less inclined to trust the defense now. We really miss the likes of Lawes and Launchbury offering a second defensive rock after Robshaw.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, agree with both things.
I don't know if our system has the 9 as a sweeper, but if it does then he's crap at it as we always have a ton of space in behind. Italy exposed this a bit today, but Sexton w/ Bowe/Kearney will have a field day dinking over the top.

Also agree on the kick chase - as a unit we've probably got one of the quickest backlines in rugby at the moment, yet our kick chase is always so slow it either allows easy yards on the carry, or the kicker an age to set himself to return it. It's only when you get the one off blitzer that we get any pressure on the opposition.

 

[Rich Taff]

Did Stuart Lancaster tell Mike Brown 'You're great on the counterattack, but I want you to defend like Halfpenny'?

 

[Peat]

Yeah, agree with both things.
I don't know if our system has the 9 as a sweeper, but if it does then he's crap at it as we always have a ton of space in behind. Italy exposed this a bit today, but Sexton w/ Bowe/Kearney will have a field day dinking over the top.

Also agree on the kick chase - as a unit we've probably got one of the quickest backlines in rugby at the moment, yet our kick chase is always so slow it either allows easy yards on the carry, or the kicker an age to set himself to return it. It's only when you get the one off blitzer that we get any pressure on the opposition.

We very rarely play a sweeper and this has been highlighted before.

Kick Chase is more than the wings or even the backs - personally I think this has seen improvement recently, but we're still not great at it..

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fair enough! I did think I'd seen people say England don't use a sweeper, but couldn't remember.
I'm far from an analyst, I'll leave that for the likes of yourself and GN10

 

[goodNumber10]

well havign watched the irish game i'm convinced we need to do some surgery on our back three - Ford, Burrell, Joseph is the right midfield for that but we need a back three that is strong in the air and great on the kick return.

No chance of this at all i suspect, but i'd like to see Roko come in on the right wing - and Watson move to 15 with Nowell at 11. (I'd like to see Tait in at 15, but it'll never happen so) i'm struggling outside of Pennell and fear we're going to see Goode.

My backline for next week would be:

youngs
ford
Nowell
Burrell
JJ
Roko
Watson

It's likely to be:
youngs
ford
may
Burrell
JJ
Nowell
Watson

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Out of interest, why would you pick Youngs over Wigglesworth?
I know he was very good vs Wales, but his performance today was far more in line with what we've come to expect recently in an England shirt.
Both him and Wiggy are very good defenders, but Wigglesworth's kicking is ten times better.

Do you think Youngs potential zip/running game will help over a much improved kicking game vs Ireland? (genuine question, not sarcastic/rhetorical )

 

[yaboyjj]

I hope you're not serious about starting Wigglesworth next week- he's painfully slow.
Watson shouldn't start at full-back against Ireland imo, as promising as he is, he'd be horribly exposed by Sextons kicking game and Bowe/Kearney kick chasing. It looks a bit bare at fb behind Brown, Goode/Pennel? I have a feeling that Goode will be parachuted in- Pennell would be a bold move (could pay off though).
At scrum time I'm a little concerned about the replacement props, I'm not holding my breath about Corbs regaining form/fitness though (fast track Auterac anyone?!- arguably already as good as Mullan/Waller, and has a higher ceiling than Mako imo)

my team for Ireland:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Atwood
5. Lawes
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Nowell
12. 36
13. Joesph
14. Watson
15. Pennell

16. Youngs
17. Vunipola
18 Brookes
19. Kruis
20. Ewers (just because- don't care about the eps)
21. Simpson (^)- also I rate the ability to win a game/up pace from the bench, over the ability to close a game out
22. Cipriani
23. Eastmond/Burrell

We can't afford to have defensive flakes against Ireland, Watson/Nowell/Pennel are all pretty good under the high ball, which is very important while 36 offers a better kicking option than Burrell. It was a poor last 15 minutes for England today, and that was partly down to the loss of Haskell and Youngs (Croft is too lightweight and Wiggle is too slow).

 

[goodNumber10]

Out of interest, why would you pick Youngs over Wigglesworth?
I know he was very good vs Wales, but his performance today was far more in line with what we've come to expect recently in an England shirt.
Both him and Wiggy are very good defenders, but Wigglesworth's kicking is ten times better.

Do you think Youngs potential zip/running game will help over a much improved kicking game vs Ireland? (genuine question, not sarcastic/rhetorical )

Because of his sniping and how narrow that keeps oppo backrows. i think he was somewhat negated this week due to the pitch being wet and the italians sitting tight after his snipes last week.

I'm a fan of Wigglesworth and he is a much batter tactical kicker, but i think our 9's kicking from rucks next week needs to be for distance not to regather, and that's how we use youngs as a distance kicker from 9 and let ford make the regather kicks.

To be honest i need to watch the ireland game again, as on watching it just now i'm not sure where we're going to beat them (but i felt much the same last year), so my thoughts might change after that.

@yaboyjj why would you go with 36 over Burrell? (thought 36's passing today was nice and sharp tbf)

On Watson at 15, i think Lancaster will look to make as few changes as possible, and he seems to trust wingers who can move position so i have a feeling he'll give him a start there.

Pennell would be fine imho, anyone but Goode.

 

[yaboyjj]

Because of his sniping and how narrow that keeps oppo backrows. i think he was somewhat negated this week due to the pitch being wet and the italians sitting tight after his snipes last week.

I'm a fan of Wigglesworth and he is a much batter tactical kicker, but i think our 9's kicking from rucks next week needs to be for distance not to regather, and that's how we use youngs as a distance kicker from 9 and let ford make the regather kicks.

To be honest i need to watch the ireland game again, as on watching it just now i'm not sure where we're going to beat them (but i felt much the same last year), so my thoughts might change after that.

@yaboyjj why would you go with 36 over Burrell? (thought 36's passing today was nice and sharp tbf)

On Watson at 15, i think Lancaster will look to make as few changes as possible, and he seems to trust wingers who can move position so i have a feeling he'll give him a start there.

Pennell would be fine imho, anyone but Goode.

In a game of this type and magnitude, I just don't trust Watson to be a stable/reassuring presence at the back- particularly in defense and kicking. We need a guy with a good kicking game at the back, which opens the gate for Goode :/
36 has shown more than Burrell thus far, and Burrell seems to have taken on some old 36 habits (throwing wild offloads and intercepts), certainly Twelvetrees fulfills more of an Eastmond type role (good passing game) which seems to complement Joseph well enough at Bath.

 

[goodNumber10]

In a game of this type and magnitude, I just don't trust Watson to be a stable/reassuring presence at the back- particularly in defense and kicking. We need a guy with a good kicking game at the back, which opens the gate for Goode :/

We've been playing with Ford back in the 15 role a lot more than we did with Farrell who we leave up in the defensive line, so they might consider that enough of akicking option (crosses fingers)

36 has shown more than Burrell thus far, and Burrell seems to have taken on some old 36 habits (throwing wild offloads and intercepts), certainly Twelvetrees fulfills more of an Eastmond type role (good passing game) which seems to complement Joseph well enough at Bath.

Not sure i'm seeing the same as you there then mate, I think Burrell has been fine, his defence has been good (especially on kick chase), but it's a fair point about 36 and kicking option,with no brown we lose that 2nd option, so we may indeed see him come in - the question there will then be do they move JJ or Lose Burrell :/

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Because of his sniping and how narrow that keeps oppo backrows. i think he was somewhat negated this week due to the pitch being wet and the italians sitting tight after his snipes last week.

I'm a fan of Wigglesworth and he is a much batter tactical kicker, but i think our 9's kicking from rucks next week needs to be for distance not to regather, and that's how we use youngs as a distance kicker from 9 and let ford make the regather kicks.

Fair enough!
That does make a lot of sense and, as pointed out above, our kick chase is nothing to write home about so distance is paramount.




Edit:
A left field suggestion for 15 might be Cipriani?
He's not played there for donkey's years but there were a whole host of players/ex-players/pundits calling for him to come straight on at 15 when Brown went off injured today.
Though the fact that he didn't does pour a lot of water on this idea.

 

[Peat]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I rate Goode's positioning and kicking quite a distance ahead of Watson's and therefore want to see him at full-back and would rather go for him, despite Watson's advantage taking the high ball. Pennell would be pretty cool but kinda ballsy.

As for how we beat Ireland -

- Match their discipline
- Give nothing for free
- Have a go at the set-piece
- Be strong under the high ball
- Attack them. They don't always deal with tempo well. Teams that generate plenty of quick ball can really start stretching them. They like to get over the ball and they like their choke tackle but if you can get them backpedaling they can't do it. Youngs and Ford I think are really capable of turning ok ball into quick ball if the forwards are supporting adequately and, tbh, I'd be tempted to tell whoever 12 is that the ruck is their most important duty (oh gods, I'm beginning to sound like I'm calling for Barritt again...).

If I was really, really horrible, I'd say kick Sexton and Murray as early on as possible.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As for how we beat Ireland -

- Match their discipline

I thought their discipline was atrocious today, they just weren't penalised for it.
It's a cliché, but a different referee would have pinged them off the park for the amount of ruck infringements they had today.

Their scrum does look weak, though. Ross is past his prime and a not-that-great-France scrum had him in all sorts of trouble. Best's throwing also left a lot to be desired - if Parling (or Wood - despite what we'd lose from Haskell's absence) is fit then we could have some success come lineout time too.


I agree on sending the big runners at Sexton. For all that idiotic Irish commentator's verbal m@sturb@tion over his "bravery", what the idiot said was bravery was really showing that he Sexton had real qualms over tackling the impact runners. He didn't want to throw his shoulder in/put his body on the line to make the hit, instead went high/with the arms, and copped a face full of skull for it. Just because you repeatedly injure yourself doesn't mean you're a hero.
It wasn't THAT bad because there were often other Irish defenders about to take advantage of his face being a speed bump, but generally is a guy's only going high then that's a sign to send your big guys down his channel.

 

[Peat]

Sexton going high has nothing to do with qualms and everything to do with the fact he's a big strong lad with instructions to a) Execute the choke tackle where all possible and b) Prevent the offload. You might injure him going at him, but if you think he's going to give much in defence, I'd say otherwise. He's possibly the soundest defensive fly-half I've seen in recentyears.

As for discipline - if the ref had blown, they'd have probably adapted. They're smart like that, as a rule.

 

[Spartan]

Need to tighten the defence up a bit, but Jonathan Joseph was immense again, Ireland will be a key game for us, atmosphere should be great in Dublin.