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2014 Super Rugby: Blues v Crusaders (Round 3)

THIS!

They missed the playoffs in the inaugural 1996 season, missed them again the next year, and in 2001 when no NZ teams made it. They have not missed them since.

Whilst this is completely true, how many times have the Crusaders won the competition when they have qualified as number four or lower? The last time the Crusaders won the competition, in 2008, they were at home for all of the finals series, qualifying first. The last time the Crusaders won the competition and didn't qualify as the top team was in 2000. They can't afford to lose matches early in the season and build into their work, because I don't think they'll be able to win the competition if they qualify outside the top 2.

Is simply making the finals again going to be enough this season?
 
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Whilst this is completely true, how many times have the Crusaders won the competition when they have qualified as number four or lower? The last time the Crusaders won the competition, in 2008, they were at home for all of the finals series, qualifying first. The last time the Crusaders won the competition and didn't qualify as the top team was in 2000. They can't afford to lose matches early in the season and build into their work, because I don't think they'll be able to win the competition if they qualify outside the top 2.

Is simply making the finals again going to be enough this season?

The Crusaders will be fine in the playoffs if they don't run into the bloody Chiefs again ;) I do agree with you though - if the Crusaders want to win the ***le they really want to top the NZ conference. Hamilton has not been very happy hunting ground for them recently.....

The Crusaders do lack a bit of creativity at 10 with Carter missing. Slade may be able to provide it, but what I would like to see far more of is Dagg taking the ball at first receiver and attacking the line hard. He did it once against the Blues, which resulted in Crotty's try. That is how he made a name for himself initially - indeed there were many calling for him to be convert to a first-five! He seems to have lost that aspect of his game over the last couple of seasons for some reason - now would be a perfect time for him to bring it back, as he could add a different dimension to the Crusaders attack if he hits the line hard at first receiver. To do that I suppose he needs to be in the starting side though......
 
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It will go one of two ways they will snap out of it or they will have a Highlanders shocker like last year. The way they played today for 50minutes looking devoid of any training or will to win things look pretty bad to me. Next week will be interesting to see if they snap out of it.

I'm hoping they snap out of it, but I have a bad feeling about this season. Funny you should mention the 'Landers, because I was just thinking that today - maybe the Crusaders are the new Highlanders this year. I hope not, and I know I had the exact same feeling at the start of last season, so I am - for now - holding onto hope.

The Crusaders have started poorly (again), but I don't think they will be overly worried. They have proven time and time again that they get better as the season progresses. Everyone wrote them off after they got hammered by the Blues at the start of last season too, but predictably they made the playoffs (and were only a point or 2 away from making the final). For the first 30 mins against the Blues they played some excellent rugby, and the dominated a lot of the game versus the Chiefs (but lacked any clinical finishing). They need to decide on their best 15 and stick with it for a few weeks. I think they to bring the likes of Guildford and McNicholl into their starting lineup - guys with genuine pace who know their way to the tryline. The Crusaders have the Stormers in Christchurch next weekend - I expect to see a much improved performance then.

The thing I wonder about with the Crusaders lately is - with the talent they have - are they purposely holding back? They remind me of...well...me. I was a good student, learning came easy to me so I never put forth that extra effort to be a great student. I was happy coming in second. For some reason I get the same vibes from the Crusaders - they have the talent in abundance, but - with just a few exceptions - they never seem to put forth that extra effort. I wonder if it's because they know that, while Super Rugby is important, All Blacks games are MORE important so they purposely hold back in SR in order to give the ABs their all.

das
 
X-rays have confirmed McCaw has a broken thumb, and is set to miss the next 8 weeks (http://tvnz.co.nz/rugby-news/mccaw-s-broken-thumb-adds-crusader-woes-5854862). While he is a loss he is nowhere near as vital to the Crusaders as he has been in the past. We haven't seen the best of him at Super Rugby level for a number of years, while Matt Todd has been very good for the past couple of seasons.
 
First 2 pages of this thread was about throwing Benji on. Lolz. Surplus to requirements yesterday. JK learnt a harsh lesson last year, so I'm a little bit more tolerant about how they progress this year. It was Sir GH that pushed for SBW - So I think they have some kind of judgement on when or how it's best to use Benji.

Our forwards need alot more work. Not just in the set pieces but just in the grind of the game. We're gonna get torn apart by the Saffers if they don't get it right.

Tuipolotu was outstanding last week and last night and hopefully when Kaino gets on board and Kevvie starts, we have a little bit more penetration from our forwards from the get go. Luatua dropping off tackles but for mine, Tom Donnelly was probably the best forward on the park.

Hickey was fantastic, he did what he needed to do, was smart and just let his outside backs dictate when they needed the ball. I think after Carlos, we've been stuck on a rotation of first fives who just presume to think they should be the show, rather than running the show. He had better support from Weepu which Noakes didn't get last week. (imo)

The Saders' seem to lack some imagination. They had a fair bit of dominance but couldn't do anything with it. Andy Ellis was fantastic. Not a big fan of his but it was hard to deny his influence. I thought the crusaders lacked some genuine x-factor in their backline. No real penetration in their midfield and when they weren't able to use their smarts to get around the blues, they didn't have anything.

The trials are over, first game jitters should have been gone, now is the time for the teams to have, at the very least, their defensive systems in place. A little bit of x-factor will go along way.
 
First 2 pages of this thread was about throwing Benji on. Lolz. Surplus to requirements yesterday. JK learnt a harsh lesson last year, so I'm a little bit more tolerant about how they progress this year. It was Sir GH that pushed for SBW - So I think they have some kind of judgement on when or how it's best to use Benji.

Our forwards need alot more work. Not just in the set pieces but just in the grind of the game. We're gonna get torn apart by the Saffers if they don't get it right.

Tuipolotu was outstanding last week and last night and hopefully when Kaino gets on board and Kevvie starts, we have a little bit more penetration from our forwards from the get go. Luatua dropping off tackles but for mine, Tom Donnelly was probably the best forward on the park.

Hickey was fantastic, he did what he needed to do, was smart and just let his outside backs dictate when they needed the ball. I think after Carlos, we've been stuck on a rotation of first fives who just presume to think they should be the show, rather than running the show. He had better support from Weepu which Noakes didn't get last week. (imo)

The Saders' seem to lack some imagination. They had a fair bit of dominance but couldn't do anything with it. Andy Ellis was fantastic. Not a big fan of his but it was hard to deny his influence. I thought the crusaders lacked some genuine x-factor in their backline. No real penetration in their midfield and when they weren't able to use their smarts to get around the blues, they didn't have anything.

The trials are over, first game jitters should have been gone, now is the time for the teams to have, at the very least, their defensive systems in place. A little bit of x-factor will go along way.

Only time will tell if they are right about Benji... in the meantime they can either win or loose the competition while they fluff around with three other 10's.

Im still not convinced any of the other first five options for the blues will last more than a season or two. Face it they struck a Crusaders team that was very very poor for over half of this match. That is not the way a Crusaders outfit usually plays. When the Blues started getting every bounce of the ball the Crusaders looked like a bunch of stunned mullets. No way are the blues going to get THAT lucky in every game.

In saying that i do think Henry and Co out thought blackadder in this game... it seemed alot like they almost worked the crusaders out in this game and played to their own strengths instead of to the Crusaders which put them out of there comfort zone bigtime.
 
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First 2 pages of this thread was about throwing Benji on. Lolz. Surplus to requirements yesterday. JK learnt a harsh lesson last year, so I'm a little bit more tolerant about how they progress this year. It was Sir GH that pushed for SBW - So I think they have some kind of judgement on when or how it's best to use Benji.

Our forwards need alot more work. Not just in the set pieces but just in the grind of the game. We're gonna get torn apart by the Saffers if they don't get it right.

Tuipolotu was outstanding last week and last night and hopefully when Kaino gets on board and Kevvie starts, we have a little bit more penetration from our forwards from the get go. Luatua dropping off tackles but for mine, Tom Donnelly was probably the best forward on the park.

Hickey was fantastic, he did what he needed to do, was smart and just let his outside backs dictate when they needed the ball. I think after Carlos, we've been stuck on a rotation of first fives who just presume to think they should be the show, rather than running the show. He had better support from Weepu which Noakes didn't get last week. (imo)

The Saders' seem to lack some imagination. They had a fair bit of dominance but couldn't do anything with it. Andy Ellis was fantastic. Not a big fan of his but it was hard to deny his influence. I thought the crusaders lacked some genuine x-factor in their backline. No real penetration in their midfield and when they weren't able to use their smarts to get around the blues, they didn't have anything.

The trials are over, first game jitters should have been gone, now is the time for the teams to have, at the very least, their defensive systems in place. A little bit of x-factor will go along way.

I've always had a bit of time for Andy Ellis. He is an excellent support player, has a very good kicking game, and I think he reads the game better than any other halfback in the country. The thing that has always held him back is his passing - indeed that is the main reason he isn't still in the AB's now. At best is passing can be described as 'ok', but I thought it was very poor last night. It lacked any speed, and was very inaccurate. I can't remember a single time Tom Taylor was given a flat pass he could actually run onto - a lot of the passes he took well above his head or down very low. Ellis's passing has never been fantastic but is usually ok - the Crusaders need much better service from him if they want to create anything on attack.

I don't think Heinz is half the player that Ellis is - he doesn't control the game near as well and is prone to the odd shocker, but he does have a much better pass. I just wonder whether they will consider starting Heinz next week and see what the backline can do with a bit more time and space (Ellis can always come on if Heinz is struggling).

Only time will tell if they are right about Benji... in the meantime they can either win or loose the competition while they fluff around with three other 10's.

Im still not convinced any of the other first five options for the blues will last more than a season or two. Face it they struck a Crusaders team that was very very poor for over half of this match. That is not the way a Crusaders outfit usually plays. When the Blues started getting every bounce of the ball the Crusaders looked like a bunch of stunned mullets. No way are the blues going to get THAT lucky in every game.

In saying that i do think Henry and Co out thought blackadder in this game... it seemed alot like they almost worked the crusaders out in this game and played to their own strengths instead of to the Crusaders which put them out of there comfort zone bigtime.

There is no guarantee either Kerr or Hickey last more than a season or two, but based on the evidence thus far I think they are clearly better options than Benji Marshall. I can understand people calling for Marshall ahead of Noakes - Noakes is as good as he will ever be - but Kerr and Hickey are both very talented young players with the potential to be excellent Super Rugby players. Let's compare the players:

Marshall is 29, has basically no experience at rugby union, and showed nothing in the pre-season to suggest he is ready for Super Rugby. He can however pass the ball behind his back.
Kerr is 24, has been outstanding for Counties over the last two ITM Cup seasons, and has not looked out of place at Super Rguby level so far. He is a strong defender, can take the ball to the line, and seems to know how to control the game.
Hickey has just turned 20, and is one of the most talented young 10's in NZ rugby. He is an excellent goal-kicker, has a good tactical kicking game, is a courageous defender, and doesn't mind taking the ball to the line. He started for the NZ U20 side last season, and is still eligible for them this season. He had a very good ITM Cup last season for Auckland as a 19 years old, and had just made a very promising debut for the Blues.

I'm sure the Blues will feel obliged to play Marshall given the price the paid for him, but investing in Kerr or Hickey would be far better bets if they are looking to the future (as well as being the best option right now). I'm not saying that Marshall won't develop into a quality Rugby Union player, but if he does it will take some time (I'm thinking years rather than weeks), especially given 10 is a very specialist position (how many league players have successful been transformed in 10's in union?).
 
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^^ Just good super rugby players they havent got the look of DC or Cruden written all over them have they? Benji brings something much different if they can convert him quickly and manage to hide his failings he could be very good even in the 10 position. Look at Quade Cooper he is far from the complete 10 Benji can be as good as him, if he puts his heart into it. Age certainly is not on his side though he's probably left it to late in that respect.

Have any super rugby sides wont the competition without an international class 10? I dont think so... So i still think Benji is the only one that "could" be an international class first five for the blues.... not sayin that he will though. He'd probaby have to put a mafia style hit on DC and Cruden to have any chance whatsoever though.

Its still pretty early on. Ultimately I suspect Anscombe currently is the only real solution to the blues problems, but fat chance in getting him back there as Kirwan/Blues have ****** him off pretty bad.
 
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^^ Just good super rugby players they havent got the look of DC or Cruden written all over them have they? Benji brings something much different if they can convert him quickly and manage to hide his failings he could be very good even in the 10 position. Look at Quade Cooper he is far from the complete 10 Benji can be as good as him imo if he puts his heart into it. Age certainly is not on his side though he's probably left it to late in that respect.

Have any super rugby sides wont the competition without an international class 10? I dont think so... So i still think Benji is the only one that "could" be an international class first five for the blues.... not sayin that he will though. He'd probaby have to put a mafia style hit on DC and Cruden to have any chance whatsoever though.

Its still pretty early on. Ultimately I suspect Anscombe currently is the only real solution to the blues problems imo but fat chance in getting him back there as Kirwan/Blues have ****** him off pretty bad.

Kerr is unlikely to ever be international class, but it is strange to suggest that Hickey will never be international class. The guy has a huge amount of talent, and is clearly some distance ahead of his age-grade peers (few NZ players play in two U20 World Cups - he will as long as he is not playing for the Blues at the time). He is one of the most talented 10's we have seen at age-grade level for several years - I think he is a better player than Cruden was at the same age. There is obviously no guarantees he will develop into an international class player, but if he keeps developing at the rate he is I see no reason why he will not.

I would say he is a much better investment than Gareth Anscombe. Anscombe never really excelled at ITM Cup level - Auckland looked far better last season when Anscombe was injured and replaced by a 19 year old Hickey. Anscombe is the better goal-kicker, but in all other aspects Hickey looks the better player. I do think Anscombe could be a useful first-five at Super Rugby, but Hickey looks to have the potential to be much better.
 
Nadolo was 22 when he left Australia. While this is quite young, many wings are already at (or at least are very near) their peaks in their early 20s. He may well have made big improvements to his game, but I think it is fair to say he is completely unproven at Super Rugby level (or any comparative level). He could prove to be very good, but I have seen nothing in his career thus far to suggest he should be starting on the wing for the Crusaders...

Most players do, but some players get better when they get older, especially the Fijian players. I remember when Nadolo made his debut for Fiji when he was 22, he was crap, but this year he was a totally different player. I think he's better as a center than a winger, but I guess we'll see how he does
 
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Most players do, but some players get better when they get older, especially the Fijian players. I remember when Nadolo made his debut for Fiji when he was 22, he was crap, but this year he was a totally different player. I think he's better as a center than a winger, but I guess we'll see how he does

Fair enough, I'm sure you have seen a lot more of him than I have. I do hope he turns out to be a great buy for the Crusaders - they could really use someone with a bit of power in their backline!
 
Who was it that placed all the money on the Crusaders? ;)

I would be one of those, although my conviction was not as great as those that were picking the 30+ point Crusaders win :) Safe to say I got pretty badly burned in this game. What makes things worse is I was on holiday so didn't really get to watch the game. I did however flick on the TV to see the Crusaders "safely" up by 14 coming to the end of the first half.....


Not to matter, on wards and upwards hopefuly :)

I do not think I will be backing the Crusaders again in a hurry though.


Well done Blues!
 
Worth re-posting this I reckon:



18 years old - What a talent!
 
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The Crusaders seem to be lacking a bit of cut in attack.

I think Elis has had a slow start to the season, the back line seemed to have more time and space when Heinz game on against the chiefs. I also think they are lacking a big carrier in the backs, someone who can really commit defenders and offload.

I know richie missed two tackles for those two blues trys but they were both desperate cover tackles rather than standard bread and butter stuff for a 7 in his channel. Overall I've actually thought McCaw has been playing with good energy and actually running the ball well and showing good speed.

So has Matt Todd, its really obvious that McCaw is resisting moving to 6 and its understandable. Hes injured now so its off the table for the time being but you would have to think that the crusaders would be better off right now with him at 6 and Todd at 7. Would also think that their loosie setup is so good that they can afford to rotate players a bit. They do have 5 All Black Loosies.

With Romano and Crockett benched its asking a lot of McCaw and Read in the ball carrying department, George whitelock can chip in as well but hes not quite the same level. I think the starting pack is just missing one or two genuine ball runners like Todd, Romano or even Crockett who can be good as for a prop. leaves them short overall when they dont have any big guys in the backs to take the ball up.
 
Fair enough, I'm sure you have seen a lot more of him than I have. I do hope he turns out to be a great buy for the Crusaders - they could really use someone with a bit of power in their backline!

... maybe they should play him at Centre rather than the Wing ... they Crusaders seem to go better with a large Centre playing
 
The Crusaders seem to be lacking a bit of cut in attack.

I think Elis has had a slow start to the season, the back line seemed to have more time and space when Heinz game on against the chiefs. I also think they are lacking a big carrier in the backs, someone who can really commit defenders and offload.

I know richie missed two tackles for those two blues trys but they were both desperate cover tackles rather than standard bread and butter stuff for a 7 in his channel. Overall I've actually thought McCaw has been playing with good energy and actually running the ball well and showing good speed.

So has Matt Todd, its really obvious that McCaw is resisting moving to 6 and its understandable. Hes injured now so its off the table for the time being but you would have to think that the crusaders would be better off right now with him at 6 and Todd at 7. Would also think that their loosie setup is so good that they can afford to rotate players a bit. They do have 5 All Black Loosies.

With Romano and Crockett benched its asking a lot of McCaw and Read in the ball carrying department, George whitelock can chip in as well but hes not quite the same level. I think the starting pack is just missing one or two genuine ball runners like Todd, Romano or even Crockett who can be good as for a prop. leaves them short overall when they dont have any big guys in the backs to take the ball up.

I certainly agree that the Crusaders lack ball runners in both the forward pack and the backline. Tim Perry has been pretty solid at LH, but I feel the Crusaders could use Crockett's ball running ability (though it will likely cost them 2 penalties a game at scrum-time...). Likewise I think they need Romano starting at lock for the same reason. Todd has been the best ball runner in the first couple of matches, while Read is very effective running a bit wider. Given McCaw is out I think they should have Taufua on the bench to add some impact in the last 20-30 minutes. I'm sure they will opt for Luke Whitelock though....

There really aren't many options in terms of big ball running backs until Nadolo becomes available. The Crusaders attack got very lateral at times during the Chiefs - strangely I think bringing back Zac Guildford could help here. Guildford certainly isn't a direct ball runner, but he runs great lines off the 10 and 12, which will bring a different dimension to the Crusaders attack, and put the defensive side in two minds (whether Guildford gets the ball or not). Having Guildford running these lines also makes the grubber kick a feasible option, though I don't want to see them doing that too much (as I feel some teams become obsessed with it...).
 
Haven't had the chance to reply, been a busy week, but safe to say that was a pleasant surprise on Friday!

The Blues young players really stood up, thought Tuipoloto was outstanding, really had a scare with his knee at the start but came back with a fantastic game. I thought Hickey was superb, really cool headed. Like how the first few times he got his hands on the ball he took it into contact, setting the tone. Tevita Li ... boy has incredible talent, was really chuffed to see him get the start and make his mark. Also, that intercept try, surely he was onside!!! If that was offside nearly EVERY play over the weekend was offside. The ref completely bottled that, the fact he blew it dead THEN sent it upstairs ...

As a whole alot to improve on still, the forwards need alot of work, the lineout was HORRIBLE. If we dont get that sorted the SA tour is going to be a long one indeed.

Was nice seeing Woody back in the blue packing down next to Mealamu.
 

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