[2014 EOYT] Wales vs New Zealand

[donmcdazzle]

I can't recall Cruden ever playing anything other than 10. If he did, it would have been at a pinch - possibly at full back? Turbos, Canes, and Chiefs - I've ono;y seen him start at 10. At the end of the day he is the starting 10 for the ABs or he is out of the playing squad - simply as that.

Listening to a few of the guys close to the ABs if Cruden Starts Barrett is cover, If Carter Starts Barrett is again cover, If Barrett starts Carter is cover (probably ranked in that order currently as well).

Carter will have the whole of Super Rugby to get rid of the rust, if he stays injury free he'll then have the Rugby Championship etc as well before the RWC. I think it's heaps of time for him and a nice build up. If he can regain his old form during that time, he'll likely surpass Cruden. Fingers crossed for him cause a fully fit, inform Carter will help the ABs chances of retaining the RWC immensely. That being said, Cruden would do a fine job too! I;m not sure therefore that Carter needs this game vs Wales, and my hunch is that the selectors feel they have used him enough on this tour and will sit him out for this one.

I agree regarding Carter. They're about to have a bit of time off anyway so it isn't like we need to have him back in form asap. I'd leave him out and let him have a proper, full pre season with no injuries. Then hopefully he can hit the ground running at the start of super rugby and put together a full campaign in good form.

Re: Cruden and positions; he has only ever played 10 at senior level. He actually made (or at least was involved in all the trials) the NZ u16 as a 12 or 13 I think, but played 10 at 1st XV level and only there ever since. When he was first in the canes Hammett had the great idea of trying him at halfback. I don't think it ever happened thankfully, but can't have helped when the canes tries to keep him from going to the chiefs (that and Hammett picking Kirkpatrick ahead of him).

 

[smartcooky]

Is Cruden only able to play 10? Has he played any other position? I don't think he has for the ABs, but what about club or super level? At least Barrett and Carter can play a couple of different ones.

Yeah, Cruden's only downsides are his lack of versatility (he is pretty much 10 or nothing) which cannot be easily fixed, and his current poor all round kicking form (line and tactical, place kicking 68%), which can be fixed. Compare this with

Barret (10/15) 82%
Carter (10/12/15) 78%
Slade (10/15) 86%

The Cruden 10/Carter 12 experiment was tried last year (I think, or maybe the year before) and it was a failure.

 

[Big Ewis]

fk, one HUNDRED caps as capitàn...and he's just pilin up those milestones to make sure at the end when it's all said and done salon discussions will bring him up as the best. That's a good thing to remember when you're really down, when you're a piece of shiit and you've done everything you possibly could wrong_well I...do have 100 caps as captain. It's the fix all, ay.

 

[Draggs]

OK, finally a chance to talk about the team.
Halfpenny back to fullback doesn't surprise me. Liam Williams played well last week, but Halfpenny is crucial in this team, with his kicking and positioning in defence/receiving kicks. People say Williams is better in attack, but I am still of the opinion Halfpenny plays more conservatively under orders, while Williams plays his style. Look at the Lions third test when Halfpenny hit the line with great effect. Liam also apparently took a knock, so there you go.

North and Cuthbert wouldn't be dropped for Williams, they are our only regular try scorers. Both are poor in defence and seem a bit unsure where they belong on field except when taking the ball out wide. North to 13 would be the only way Williams would make the back three apart from injury-forced changes.

Midfield isn't surprising; Roberts has been ineffective for a while, punctuated by decent matches here and there. His handling was shocking last week, so bad I am willing to mark it off as a bad day. Davies to 13 is a desperation move. He has been injured/out of form for Clermont so far, so throwing him into the ABs this quickly is clearly a roll of the dice.

Halfbacks both returning from injuries sustained v Australia. Biggar is the man for this job, the most controlling player we have at 10. Also a reliable boot if needed. Webb isn't my first pick overall, and his match v Aus was so typical: god or a goat. The line between amazing/awful is very thin for Rhys.

With Jenkins injured, James starting makes sense. We don't need to do the debate between them every thread, so let's avoid it! Hibbard was on the naughty step for all of five minutes! Baldwin over Phillips on the bench I would assume has more to do with match fitness, and I don't rate Baldwin in tight or loose. Lee was obvious.

AWJ and Ball, who else? Davies and Charteris were anonymous v Fiji. We really need the nippers to come through in a few years. Our last few (Peers, King, Hill, Screech, Cook) all topped at 6'4"-6'5". Thornton, Beard, Davies, Hughes are bigger lumps, could see them getting time for their regions soon. Could honestly also see either Snyman or Earle getting a shot when eligible next year.

Back row: yawn. Lydiate is the new 'golden boy'. OK, I get it he does like 18 tackles per match, but that shouldn't be the only important stat for a blindside. We really need other options. McCustard and Turnbull are not options. Shingler doesn't fit in the squad with his style of play. I would do Tipuric-Warburton for the time being. Faletau hasn't been impressive lately, almost feel as if he is more suited to flanker. Baker is the only other 8, and he is still a little passive in defence at times. No real candidates in the U20 either. Benjamin was the 8 this year, but his size doesn't work for a modern international 8. Mongo?

 

[nzlizard]

The other important point is how well Piutau goes will impact on Smiths chances. Smith could have a blinder, but if Piutau struggles it certainly won't help Smith's cause.

To me this is almost the biggest factor, Smith and Dagg can both play fullback, Smith better, I do wonder though if the selectors look at it from a back 3 package vs individual positions in the back 3, only reason I can think of for it.

What annoys me is the last time Smith had a good crack in the 15 jersey (against England) he was outstanding, even Hansen was saying things along the lines of him taking it to the next level and Dagg had work to do etc. Skip ahead to the next tests.. Dagg at 15 again.

Agreed completely with the comments from Hansen, but I do wonder if they are trying to recreate that form of last year when Smith scored so many tries on the wing, lets be honest Jane doesn't offer much there, he is a safe choice as he can tackle, kick and pass really well but lacks the X factor of Smith or Savea on this wing.

Carter will have the whole of Super Rugby to get rid of the rust, if he stays injury free he'll then have the Rugby Championship etc as well before the RWC. I think it's heaps of time for him and a nice build up. If he can regain his old form during that time, he'll likely surpass Cruden. Fingers crossed for him cause a fully fit, inform Carter will help the ABs chances of retaining the RWC immensely. That being said, Cruden would do a fine job too! I;m not sure therefore that Carter needs this game vs Wales, and my hunch is that the selectors feel they have used him enough on this tour and will sit him out for this one.

Yup, not too much can be read into selections from this EOYT for a few reasons

1. Hard to work out what Hansen is thinking
2. Next years super form will play a large part in who gets what, as Cruden, Barrett and Carter all have enough experience to start, Barrett not so much as the others but he could do it.
3. Utility back positions could be the key to who gets selected and who doesn't, 3 of the 4 can play more than 1 position and 2 of those can comfortably play 3 or more positions good enough to see out matches.

 

[turmeric2015]

I don't think Piutau's form on the wing will have that much to do with whether B.Smith plays at fullback long term anyway, as there's Cory Jane still to come back as a right winger, and, who knows what other players that can immerge durring the Super Rugby season.

I disagree with that. I presume you agree with NZLizard that the AB selectors view the back three as a package - Savea has the 11 locked down - B Smith has one of the remaining 2 spots secured, but the incumbent group has Dagg at FB. If a change is to be forced, Smith switches to 15 but someone must take 14 - hence why that player's role (who right now is most likely Piutau) is so important if Smith is to push his way into the 15 spot.

I guess therefore that where we disagree is on the long term 14? For me Piutau is close to cementing himself as the best out and out 14 option the ABs have got (if you take Smith out of the equation). I find it strange you don't see Piutau in the picture long term! Jane's future in the AB jersey is surely coming to an end. 31 (almost 32) is quite old for the modern day All Black wing. Not to mention injuries seem to be getting more frequent for him. Don't get me wrong, I highly rate him, but long term Piutau is clearly the future. He could even be the present after this weekend!

As for new blood coming through - any thoughts? I watched most of the ITM cup this year and am not sure anyone jumped out at me as massive contenders to challenge for AB starting spots in the near future. There is some talent, no doubt, but anyone really seriously pushing?? I don't think there is at this stage. I enjoyed watching James Lowe, Waisake Naholo, Nehe Milner-Skudder, and Lolagi Visinia but none of them are close to Piutau right now.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Davies to 13 is a desperation move. He has been injured/out of form for Clermont so far, so throwing him into the ABs this quickly is clearly a roll of the dice.

I fully expect him to go off injured. It's not the first time Gatland has rushed him back and thrown him straight into an international start against strong opposition, only to see him last a game at most before being forced out.
It's a shoulder injury he's had as well - testing that against the strength of some of these All Black runners could end in disaster.

 

[Mikel92]

The team has been announced
Starting XV:

1. Wyatt Crockett (35)
2. Dane Coles (26)
3. Owen Franks (66)
4. Brodie Retallick (35)
5. Samuel Whitelock (61)
6. Jerome Kaino (55)
7. Richie McCaw - captain (136)
8. Kieran Read (71)
9. Aaron Smith (37)
10. Beauden Barrett (27)
11. Julian Savea (32)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (22)
13. Conrad Smith (84)
14. Charles Piutau (13)
15. Ben Smith (37)

Reserves:

16. Keven Mealamu (122)
17. Joe Moody (7)
18. Charlie Faumuina (26)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (6)
20. Liam Messam (39)
21. TJ Perenara (10)
22. Colin Slade (16)
23. Ryan Crotty (12)

http://allblacks.com/News/26385/all-blacks-team-named-to-play-wales

 

[Darwin]

1. Wyatt Crockett (35)
2. Dane Coles (26)
3. Owen Franks (66)
4. Brodie Retallick (35)
5. Samuel Whitelock (61)
6. Jerome Kaino (55)
7. Richie McCaw - captain (136)
8. Kieran Read (71)
9. Aaron Smith (37)
10. Beauden Barrett (27) <_<
11. Julian Savea (32)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (22)
13. Conrad Smith (84)
14. Charles Piutau (13)
15. Ben Smith (37) :bana::bananarock::bowdown::champion::bravo::carrot::bananarock::gat:

Reserves:

16. Keven Mealamu (122)
17. Joe Moody (7)
18. Charlie Faumuina (26)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (6)
20. Liam Messam (39)
21. TJ Perenara (10)
22. Colin Slade (16)<_<
23. Ryan Crotty (12)

 

[Kapa O Pango]

1. Wyatt Crockett (35)
2. Dane Coles (26)
3. Owen Franks (66)
4. Brodie Retallick (35)
5. Samuel Whitelock (61)
6. Jerome Kaino (55)
7. Richie McCaw - captain (136)
8. Kieran Read (71)
9. Aaron Smith (37)
10. Beauden Barrett (27)<_<
11. Julian Savea (32)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (22)
13. Conrad Smith (84)
14. Charles Piutau (13)
15. Ben Smith (37) :bana::bananarock::bowdown::champion::bravo::carrot::bananarock::gat:

Reserves:

16. Keven Mealamu (122)
17. Joe Moody (7)
18. Charlie Faumuina (26)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (6)
20. Liam Messam (39)
21. TJ Perenara (10)
22. Colin Slade (16)<_<
23. Ryan Crotty (12)

R.I.P Wales.

The back-three finally Hansen got it right. Savea, Smith, Piutau.

Jesus christ, this is like a full strength squad.

The 10 option is a bit tricky at the moment, maybe Slade should have been starting.

Good squad.

 

[Shaggy]

I disagree with that. I presume you agree with NZLizard that the AB selectors view the back three as a package - Savea has the 11 locked down - B Smith has one of the remaining 2 spots secured, but the incumbent group has Dagg at FB. If a change is to be forced, Smith switches to 15 but someone must take 14 - hence why that player's role (who right now is most likely Piutau) is so important if Smith is to push his way into the 15 spot.

I guess therefore that where we disagree is on the long term 14? For me Piutau is close to cementing himself as the best out and out 14 option the ABs have got (if you take Smith out of the equation). I find it strange you don't see Piutau in the picture long term! Jane's future in the AB jersey is surely coming to an end. 31 (almost 32) is quite old for the modern day All Black wing. Not to mention injuries seem to be getting more frequent for him. Don't get me wrong, I highly rate him, but long term Piutau is clearly the future. He could even be the present after this weekend!

As for new blood coming through - any thoughts? I watched most of the ITM cup this year and am not sure anyone jumped out at me as massive contenders to challenge for AB starting spots in the near future. There is some talent, no doubt, but anyone really seriously pushing?? I don't think there is at this stage. I enjoyed watching James Lowe, Waisake Naholo, Nehe Milner-Skudder, and Lolagi Visinia but none of them are close to Piutau right now.

I don't think that you are getting where I coming from in general - I'm not looking at selections as a one off match, I'm looking at them in a RWC type of environment (that's is long term as I'm going to get), where you are going to need at least four specialist winger/fullbacks, with cover for some of those positions/specialists provided by utilities such as Barrett, and even Slade ... maybe some of the midfielder SBW, Crotty, etc .

Anyway, in that environment Dagg and Smith are both going to be needed and used as Fullbacks for various games ... my point is that if Piutau's form suddenly becomes bad, there is likely to be Cory Jane in the picture as well. In the mid year tests, they started the first test with Jane, Smith, and Dagg. Piutau has played on the Left wing also, so they could go with Piutau, Jane and Smith next year (four a game) if required. I'm a huge Savea fan, and he definitely has a mortgage on the 11 jersey at the moment, but Hosea Gear returns to New Zealand rugby, so there's another option.

As for those other's you've mentioned, I enjoy watching them too, and probably have a slightly biased view towards James Lowe (as I'm a Makos fan), but he's not ready for higher honors yet IMO ... I'm not sure who would put pressure to be honest, not I wasn't expecting Fekitoa this year either.

Hmmn ... It turns out Gatland was right about Barrett

 

[Mikel92]

It's a really good team can't moan with it. I hope Piutau and Smith make the best of their opportunity. If Jane were fully fit I'd be starting him on that wing, Piutau can motor with the best of them though. For me the backline is ALMOST just right. The whole team is just about on the money. I'm one of the few posters who don't want to burn Dagg at the stake, haha, so full strength to me would probably include him. But hey, it isn't really a question about who is better, but more about who has more suitable attributes for this particular game.

Bit disappointed for Carter, but he will have next year's Super. Even though part of me knows Barrett thrives off the bench, I prefer him over Cruden and I'm kinda excited to see how him and Slade get on! There is some real talent in the Welsh backline, so with Ben Smith's better tackling and Barrett's ability to chase down just about anyone, that should add some safety.

 

[nzlizard]

The team has been announced
Starting XV:

1. Wyatt Crockett (35)
2. Dane Coles (26)
3. Owen Franks (66)
4. Brodie Retallick (35)
5. Samuel Whitelock (61)
6. Jerome Kaino (55)
7. Richie McCaw - captain (136)
8. Kieran Read (71)
9. Aaron Smith (37)
10. Beauden Barrett (27)
11. Julian Savea (32)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (22)
13. Conrad Smith (84)
14. Charles Piutau (13)
15. Ben Smith (37)

Reserves:

16. Keven Mealamu (122)
17. Joe Moody (7)
18. Charlie Faumuina (26)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (6)
20. Liam Messam (39)
21. TJ Perenara (10)
22. Colin Slade (16)
23. Ryan Crotty (12)

http://allblacks.com/News/26385/all-blacks-team-named-to-play-wales

Would like to see Fekitoa get more game time as I feel he has more to offer and can be used in as many positions as Crotty and adds that extra spark of the bench, Cane as well needs more game time.

Team looks great but no real backline reserve that is a game breaker or has the super impact.

I don't think that you are getting where I coming from in general - I'm not looking at selections as a one off match, I'm looking at them in a RWC type of environment (that's is long term as I'm going to get), where you are going to need at least four specialist winger/fullbacks, with cover for some of those positions/specialists provided by utilities such as Barrett, and even Slade ... maybe some of the midfielder SBW, Crotty, etc .

Anyway, in that environment Dagg and Smith are both going to be needed and used as Fullbacks for various games ... my point is that if Piutau's form suddenly becomes bad, there is likely to be Cory Jane in the picture as well. In the mid year tests, they started the first test with Jane, Smith, and Dagg. Piutau has played on the Left wing also, so they could go with Piutau, Jane and Smith next year (four a game) if required. I'm a huge Savea fan, and he definitely has a mortgage on the 11 jersey at the moment, but Hosea Gear returns to New Zealand rugby, so there's another option.

As for those other's you've mentioned, I enjoy watching them too, and probably have a slightly biased view towards James Lowe (as I'm a Makos fan), but he's not ready for higher honors yet IMO ... I'm not sure who would put pressure to be honest, not I wasn't expecting Fekitoa this year either.

Hmmn ... It turns out Gatland was right about Barrett

Agree with this, WC is the focus and this year should have been about preparing for that.

Apart from the the guys tried this year no one else stands out for a call up 1 year out, Fekitoa could be a wing utility as he has the size and fend

Gear provides an option also and you have Slade, Barrett and even SBW that could play wing utility at a pinch.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Dagg is a fine player but we need to se more of Smith at fullback and Piutau needs game time to make him a useful component for the RWC.
Looks like Hansen is determined not to let Wales get that elusive win over a southern hemisphere team.
Barrett needs game time to get more comfortable especially if Dan suffers more injuries and if Cruden can't find his kicking boots.
I hope Conrad's head space is ok. He hasn't seemed himself on this tour.
Be nice to see Read and Kaino fire up in this match.

 

[inteNZity]

hi, just joined.... looks like the team most expected the selectors to pick, Hanson seems to have had some pre planned selections for this tour which is fair enough. I would have liked to see Colin Slade start to see if he is in as good a form as he as he looks. thought maybe TJP might get another start, 1/2 back is starting to look a bit like 1st 5 was prior to the last WC, one awesome player with no real back up. its a shame Nathan Harris and Victor Vito were injured as both could have really added value to the squad, I think Vito could be the impact player we need off the bench, he seems to have matured, he may even push Liam for a spot in the WC squad. I'll leave the Dagg selection to the AB selectors, I'm a fan of Izzy but the clock is ticking. All in all looking good and don't forget Ma'a....

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Best NZ line-up of the year? Good luck Wales..

Welcome to the forum @inteNZity! I like the username. And on your post, yeah NZ certainly isn't struggling for depth ATM is what I get out of it; 1st world problems.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Ummmn, I think "The Jones Boy" may have been trying to derail the "who's better - Barrett, Cruden, or Donald" thread, or was it the "which 10 won the RWC final" thread, and turn it into an "All Blacks V Wales" thread ... maybe he should be commended for trying to do so, rather than criticised for showing Wales respect

Thank you.
I get tired of the endless navel gazing about players individual aspects when there is a BIG game looming we should focus on the game rather than dredging up old bitterness about players past performances.
Hansen has selected a team to get the job done, Wales are strong at home and they can beat us if they are on the top of their game.
They have had plenty of warm up time and here comes the crunch game of the tour.
I hope Barrett has a good game and that our loose forwards stand up as a trio and have their best performance so far.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Looking forward to this one. Two fairly full strength sides. Millenium stadium should be bouncing on Saturday night.

 

[nzlizard]

thought maybe TJP might get another start, 1/2 back is starting to look a bit like 1st 5 was prior to the last WC, one awesome player with no real back up. its a shame Nathan Harris and Victor Vito were injured as both could have really added value to the squad, I think Vito could be the impact player we need off the bench, he seems to have matured, he may even push Liam for a spot in the WC squad. I'll leave the Dagg selection to the AB selectors, I'm a fan of Izzy but the clock is ticking. All in all looking good and don't forget Ma'a....

Welcome.

Don't think we would start TJP for the last game of the year, hopefully we are up a few points by the 50min mark so he at least gets 30mins.

Can't see Nonu offering too much with the depth we have at 2nd five now, SBW, Crotty and Fekitoa look comfortable there and Nonu hasn't been his block busting self for a couple of seasons, he has been too inconsistent.

Agree with Vito having potential to show impact of the bench, but he needs a great season next year to cement a spot, you would have to say McCaw, Read and Kaino are auto selections, and then Cane, Luatua, Vita and Messam make up the next tier, Cane seems to have the 7 backup spot so it is really who does 6/8 cover the best and how many loosies they want in the mix.

 

[Kapa O Pango]

So Cuthbert will be marking Savea oh gosh, those two guys are huge, with Cuthbert 6'6, Savea 6'4.