2014 6 Nations: England vs Wales (Round 4)

[Big Ewis]

Good Lord, look at Goode there spontaneously photobombing this proud moment...he played about 1m30. Wayyyy too much.

 

[Peat]

I don't buy the vision argument one bit. You don't get 25 meters of space in the fifteens games. In sevens you can get by just on pace because there's always room to maneuver in. That's not the case in modern rugby, you have to work in close confinement. I don't want wingers who think that they can get by just running fast in a straight line. No kicking, no tight play, minimal ruck play, etc. Stuff you need.

Sometimes you do though and you need to exploit it.

This argument reminds me of something Martin Johnson said about when Leicester went pro. The first big name forwards coach they got in, he deconstructed every element of the lineout and had them practice it in isolation. They'd be kneeling while people threw balls at them to simulate taking a ball once in the air for example. They didn't spend all of their time practicing the whole thing. They spent a lot of time practicing parts of it.

Sevens is like that. It's part of the game, taken and focused on to a huge degree. Sevens is valuable for teaching players how to play a certain part of the game. Just because its missing other elements does not devalue it as a training tool.

In all seriousness, looking at the number of NZ and Aussie backs with serious 7s experience, I find it mildly surprising its still an argument. Those are the countries that produce the best loosies and backs in the world as a rule. If Sevens is bad, this wouldn't happen.

 

[j'nuh]

May for me is out.... he's not had the impact i wanted, so i'd go with yarde. Nowell is a keeper for me, he's been excellent and he always beats the first man - his work rate is just fantastic.

May beats so many more defenders and makes so many more meters and clean breaks per run than Nowell does...

Sorry, Nowell has been the worst England back for me. We've seen that he can stop big men like Picamoles, but we also saw today that wingers can take him on the outside. Shrugged aside by North worryingly easily. Missed three of his four tackles today. Terrible rucking. As a winger, you're often the first player to reach the breakdown in the backline, since play often breaks down just before it gets to you. And he was an absolute hindrance at one particular ruck. He did this weird flop on top of his player, which meant Twelvetrees could neither get to the ball, nor drive through the ruck. I think our standards are very low if we pick him on the basis of his running. He's a decent runner, but that should be an absolute minimum from a winger. But he's still miles off May, Yarde and Wade in that regards. He's not particularly creative, fast, doesn't beat many defenders or look like he'll worry defences.

I will say that he's been good considering how little rugby he's played at pro level. Could be something in a year or two. But as for now, I'm going to say we should pick two from May/Wade/Yarde.

He looks to me very much like an out-of-position fullback.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm not too sure Wales' performances should be simply put down to a Lions hangover. There may be a little truth in it, with the likes of Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun-Wyn Jones etc. below their best, with it being most obvious against Ireland, but I think there's more to it. Today, the tactics were simply shocking. How is giving the most dangerous back-three in this years tournament uncontested ball a tactic? Why kick the ball straight to England's most potent ball carrier, again with no pressure applied, from the kick-off a tactic? This killed us in the first half, handing possession and territory to England on a silver platter. We weren't good enough, and England too organised to change the course of the game in the second half.

I also think that teams now fully understand how to stop Wales playing. The SH teams have been able to do so all along, but it's taken the NH sides a few years. I don't know a single Welsh rugby fan who hasn't been calling out for years for the tactics to be modified. It has brought us success, but a team must evolve if it wants to continue succeeding, and Gatland hasn't changed anything about his game plan. There is always a place for direct running and physicality, but there needs to be some subtlety there as well, and at the moment we have no subtlety at all. We hope that Roberts or North can break a tackle in midfield, but today they were running into the likes of Lawes and getting nowhere. There's also zero evidence of a back-three that actually works together to counter attack. You'd think that those three could drop back and cause havoc on the counter attack, but all we get is an up and under from Halfpenny.

For years Gatland has churned out the same line, that Wales keep the ball on the park because they have superior fitness. That simply isn't the case any longer, England and Ireland are easily as fit, in fact they are fitter this season!

If Gatland is willing to change his tactics, then there's no reason to panic. We've still got a hugely talented squad of players that are capable of playing a different game plan. I actually think a lot of them would suit a different game plan, as evidenced with last years performance against England, where I thought Wales employed a much more subtle game plan.

So the ball's in Gatland's court. The problem is, he's been totally unwilling to change anything in the past, despite similar (or worse) runs of form/results. This should act as an eye opener, that he has a year to tinker with the tactics and the team, so we can emerge a better side come RWC time. A good start would be to drop Rhys Priestland, who's had far, far to many chances now.

I agree with all of this.

Warren G is a good coach but his bed will be made in the next couple of Wales games(by himself). Every coach out there has his favorites and sticks for too long with given players or a set way of playing, but most coaches eventually make the changes the hcore fans have been calling for. Look at England; we've gradually shed the players we didn't want, such as Botha, Stevens, Ashton, and I have no doubt that Goode will follow when the time is right(That's now, by the way). I know with Wales its a bit different but its still the principles of having favourites in the first place and the general conviction on Gatlands part that his game plan will be good enough if applied correctly. The worry would be that Gats will put this result down to simply execution, like after the Ireland game.

After this game, If I were Welsh, my biggest worry would be if Gatland sees Webbs poor showing as proof that Philips is integral to Wales' game plan. Wales need more time without that physicality at 9 to get used to playing without it. I don't think Gats is an idiot though and I'm 90% sure Biggar well start against Wales. I think the general ambiguity around what was going to at scrum time and his general form this tourny will be enough for Gethin J to keep his place. Literally no idea if Webb will keep his place but for Wales' sake I hope so. On the other hand, if Gatland stays with the view that Warrenball works when properly executed, he'd by extension have to stick with Webb, or else be called the biggest hypocrite of all time. In Gatlands defence, lots of what was wrong for Wales was inability to hold onto the ball; they lost it forward a lot and not all of that can be put to Englands defence.

What to say about Poite:
It was good to see him have a stab at refereeing the breakdown rather than simply fixating on the offside line, but there were at least 3 occasion when I felt he made a wrong call.
Davies, Farrell and I think Jenkins(?) each had an occasion where in going to compete for the ball they flopped first of all onto the ruck, before eventually supporting their on body weight. Not quick enough. Referees like Owens or Joubert would have penalised the other way round on those occasions. Other decisions: though I dislike Liam Williams, I don't really think it should have been a penalty against him towards the end. I also thought England got away with it when Nowell took out Halfpenny in the air, but thats easier to say when you've just won the game.

As regards the makeup of the lions and @ Feicarsinn I'm 50/50. I think that certain English guys were hard done by such as Robshaw but many of the faults are Lancasters not Gatlands; e.g no way should brown have gone because his performances on the wing were not good enough. Also Robshaws chances were dented by being played as a 7.
On the other hand, I do think many of our guys are underrated generally. The welsh guys on this forum don't seem to think this way, but a couple of people on other forums such as rugby rebels said before the game that not a single England player would make the wales 15. That's just a bit cyclopic if I may say so.

Delighted with the triple crown; hope we treat Italy seriously next week and first and foremost try and just win the game. If france do us a favour, fair play but without that we can't realistically win, so no point chasing the game too early.

 

[Maverick1987]

What time is ScrumV on?

120 odd points advantage to England this weekend so far.

Haha can't wait to see the bloke and his stat pad . Maybe the music won't be so epic this week haha

 

[goodNumber10]

May beats so many more defenders and makes so many more meters and clean breaks per run than Nowell does...

Sorry, Nowell has been the worst England back for me. We've seen that he can stop big men like Picamoles, but we also saw today that wingers can take him on the outside. Shrugged aside by North worryingly easily. Missed three of his four tackles today. Terrible rucking. As a winger, you're often the first player to reach the breakdown in the backline, since play often breaks down just before it gets to you. And he was an absolute hindrance at one particular ruck. He did this weird flop on top of his player, which meant Twelvetrees could neither get to the ball, nor drive through the ruck. I think our standards are very low if we pick him on the basis of his running. He's a decent runner, but that should be an absolute minimum from a winger. But he's still miles off May, Yarde and Wade in that regards. He's not particularly creative, fast, doesn't beat many defenders or look like he'll worry defences.

I will say that he's been good considering how little rugby he's played at pro level. Could be something in a year or two. But as for now, I'm going to say we should pick two from May/Wade/Yarde.

He looks to me very much like an out-of-position fullback.

We watched different games then mate. May goes looking, and i like him but he worries me far more than Nowell (who is an out of position 15). May for me, just doesn't beat defenders in a way that A: gets them turning on their feet, and B: gets our attack going forward.

I like that Nowell will have a go then absolutely smash into the contact area.

 

[ruggabee]

I don't buy the vision argument one bit. You don't get 25 meters of space in the fifteens games. In sevens you can get by just on pace because there's always room to maneuver in. That's not the case in modern rugby, you have to work in close confinement. I don't want wingers who think that they can get by just running fast in a straight line. No kicking, no tight play, minimal ruck play, etc. Stuff you need.

This was the footage I saw a few years ago. If the coaching panel for the best side in the world feels it benefits their players then there must be something to it. Fitness, beating a man, being forced to take advantage of space when it appears - Sevens is an environment that will push those skills to the fore.

 

[TrueSlawter]

To be fair England deserved really to win by more. The Gatland ball tactics need to change or at least be ran properly all the pointless kicking didn't help at all.

 

[goodNumber10]

Julian Savea, Adam Thompson, Ben Smith, Leonard all mentioned in that same clip.....

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Parling's lineout work is massively overplayed IMO.
The only thing he was over Attwood (or Joe/Courtney) is leadership.

I agree he is a hard worker though but I reckon in the not so distance future Slater and Kitchener will be the tigers starting 2nd row options. Kitchener has been on fire when he has played so quick and strong in the lineout, and Slater has been massive for tigers in the past few weeks and has 100% win record at captaincy (abit only 2 games). Who as a combo could after the WC be able to dislodge them, although that's will be hard on recent form.

Nowell had a very good game and think him and Yarde would be good. Still think Twelvetrees has been poor outside that great kick, this torunment he has looked past his best. Wouldn't mind seeing Burrell and Manu 12,13 combo some time. Also want to see Watson play.

It good to see though (outside of 10) some real depth in attacking options.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I don't buy the vision argument one bit. You don't get 25 meters of space in the fifteens games. In sevens you can get by just on pace because there's always room to maneuver in. That's not the case in modern rugby, you have to work in close confinement. I don't want wingers who think that they can get by just running fast in a straight line. No kicking, no tight play, minimal ruck play, etc. Stuff you need.

Sevens in the summer for the young international prospects who wont be in the English Saxons or 1XV would benefit so much from the fitness and skills set of sevens to help develop certain aspects I don't think anyone is suggesting that it should be they only form of rugby just as a tools to help players on certain aspects.

 

[Tony Manx]

May beats so many more defenders and makes so many more meters and clean breaks per run than Nowell does...

Sorry, Nowell has been the worst England back for me. We've seen that he can stop big men like Picamoles, but we also saw today that wingers can take him on the outside. Shrugged aside by North worryingly easily. Missed three of his four tackles today. Terrible rucking. As a winger, you're often the first player to reach the breakdown in the backline, since play often breaks down just before it gets to you. And he was an absolute hindrance at one particular ruck. He did this weird flop on top of his player, which meant Twelvetrees could neither get to the ball, nor drive through the ruck. I think our standards are very low if we pick him on the basis of his running. He's a decent runner, but that should be an absolute minimum from a winger. But he's still miles off May, Yarde and Wade in that regards. He's not particularly creative, fast, doesn't beat many defenders or look like he'll worry defences.

I will say that he's been good considering how little rugby he's played at pro level. Could be something in a year or two. But as for now, I'm going to say we should pick two from May/Wade/Yarde.

He looks to me very much like an out-of-position fullback.

A complete summary if one accepts it comes from a May supporter!!

May was useless today....did not pass until the 73rd minute, ran sideways, dies with good ball that could have gone out, gave away at least two penalties for holding on! He has done nothing this 6N and, personally, see no difference between him and Ashton!!

As a Top 14 supporter, I have no axe to grind as to Wade, Yarde, May, Ashton, Nowell, May or anyone else but as an independent mind.....May is not good enough on the form this tournament!!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm quite happy without tuilagi. Unless he shows he can add some more dimension to his game I wouldn't want him back. Burrell actually passes! And passes really well I've never seen tuilagi do that. I know people says he passes when playing for tigers but not with the precision of Burrell.

 

[goodNumber10]

Probably because Burrell is a 12 by trade.

 

[j'nuh]

A complete summary if one accepts it comes from a May supporter!!

May was useless today....did not pass until the 73rd minute, ran sideways, dies with good ball that could have gone out, gave away at least two penalties for holding on! He has done nothing this 6N and, personally, see no difference between him and Ashton!!

As a Top 14 supporter, I have no axe to grind as to Wade, Yarde, May, Ashton, Nowell, May or anyone else but as an independent mind.....May is not good enough on the form this tournament!!

Oh come off it. You're simply factually wrong:

Passing:

England vs Wales - May made 5 passes (to 2 kicks and 8 runs), Nowell made 1 pass (to 4 kicks and 15 runs)
England vs Ireland - May made 5 passes (to 3 kicks and 11 runs), Nowell made 3 passes (to 2 kicks and 11 runs)
England vs Scotland - May made 7 passes (to 1 kick and 11 runs), Nowell made 3 passes (to 1 kick and 7 runs)

So May passes more...

Running sideways? Well the stats count meters made as meters going forward, so:

England vs Wales - May made 10 meters per carry, Nowell made 7
England vs Ireland - May made 7.3 meters per carry, Nowell made 3.7
England vs Scotland - May made 8.4 meters per carry, Nowell made 3.7

Let's look at tackle stats:

May has made 10 tackles and missed none. 100% success rate.
Nowell has made 15 tackles and missed 4. 79% success rate.

How about penalties given away? (Excluding France game, where Nowell gave away another 2.)

May - 2. Nowell - 3.

Defenders beaten?

May - 17. Nowell - 10.

Clean breaks?

May - 4. Nowell - 2.

There is one stat that Nowell is equal to May on. Both have been turned over three times over the course of the last three games. That's it.

Also, away from stats, you can just see May position himself better, works with Brown better, rucks better (as I said before, Nowell's inability to ruck cost England a possession today) and is faster. Despite not showing it this tournament, he's also a faaaaaar more prolific try scorer.

I'm not blaming Nowell. He's got a lot of potential. But he's still very inexperienced even at club level. The early signs are that he could be a good player, but I don't think he's ready yet.

But I'm actually shocked that anyone can say Nowell has been better. May worries people because he makes so much time for himself whilst on the ball. But I'd have thought people would have enjoyed actually seeing someone who can work a bit of magic from nothing. Yes he probes the line (much like, I don't know, Shane Williams did), but he nearly always makes a ton of meters doing it, running outside of people. To then fault him for hanging on at several points, when one, he only had one penalty today so it was obviously not at several points, and two, hanging on is a pretty instinctual reaction... the point is why should he have to be holding on if he were being properly supported by his team? Australia wouldn't drop Folau because he makes a lot of breaks and his team may sometimes leave him isolated. The point to take away from it is to tell people to support the player better.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's hard to support a player who has just sprinted 50m away from you.

 

[Largejanner]

Gatlandball is now subject to the law of diminishing returns. Bound to happen eventually.

 

[j'nuh]

May never got so far away from his team that someone couldn't support him today.

 

[ratsapprentice]

No, but his team had to run the same distance that he did in order to get to the breakdown when he was tackled.

Given that he is the fastest player in the team he is certain to be without support for a good few seconds.

 

[j'nuh]

Not really. You can be a good 5m away from a tackle and still make it in time to hit the breakdown. Tackles aren't instantaneous. Players need to reach the floor and the tackler still has to get back to his feet or receive support from his own team. And although May is fast, he hardly ever has opportunity to run in an absolutely straight and open line. He'll still slow down to make turns, go round players etc. And he'll still do 10 meters in the same time most players will do 9, so there really shouldn't be that much of a gap. As long as there's someone within 4-5 meters of him and running forward with him, there shouldn't be a problem, especially when May is past the gainline (which turns the entire opposition's defensive line, which means they have to double back on themselves to even make a nuisance of the breakdown.

And this isn't even specific to May. If a winger is fast and makes breaks, needing decent support play will always be an issue. Wade, Habana, Ngwenya, May, Shane Williams, Folau, Dagg, Beale, Jason Robinson,...