2014 6 Nations: England vs Wales (Round 4)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

My player ratings for the Welsh lot:

01 Gethin Jenkins - 4.5. Equalling Stephen Jones' record cap haul, but really struggled I thought. Secured a good turn-over early on, but afterwards he was rightly penalised (imo) for boring in at the scrum, and missed a number of tackles. Paul James' impact in the scrum was noticeable and should have been brought on once it was clear that Jenkins was on the wrong side of Poite in the scrum, before he put us under pressure by being yellow carded! A decision needs to be made now about whether he can make it to the WC.
02 Richard Hibbard - 5. Crucial over-throw at a lineout a few metres from our line allowed England to take full control of the game with Burrell going over in the corner. Struggled to impose himself on the game with his carrying or tackling. Whilst he's been great over the past couple of years, maybe Owens' superior all round game, in particular his lineout throwing, would be more beneficial than Hibbard's physicality.
03 Adam Jones - 5. I'm not going to judge him harshly on the scrum, as I thought he applied pressure on his side. The one scrum with him and James on the pitch went very well. The rest of his game today was poor though. Missed a number of tackles, and offered little else of real note.
04 Jake Ball - 7. Another good performance, putting in a good defensive shift. Secured some good lineout ball, but juggled with one simple take.
05 Alun-Wyn Jones - 5. For me, the most disappointing Wales player thus far (because he's usually world class). Usually excellent, but recently he's been poor. Today he missed tackles, and knocked the ball on in contact. He did try hard, but is quite a bit below his best atm.
06 Dan Lydiate - 6. An OK performance, putting in plenty of trademark chop tackles. Ultimately though, he made fewer tackles than Ball and Warbs, despite being in the side for that sole purpose. Tipuric is imo the most talented player we've produced in a long time, surely a place should be made for him, and Lydiate should be the one to miss out.
07 Sam Warburton - 7.5. One of the few Wales players to really step-up imo. Huge work rate, making a lot of tackles, and making yards carrying the ball. I think there are some question marks about his captaincy when things aren't going to plan. Is he capable, or willing, to get the players together mid half, and say that things aren't working and the tactics need to change?
08 Toby Faletau - 6. Some good things, some sloppy play as well.

09 Rhys Webb - 5.5. Like Faletau, did a few good things, making a couple of half-breaks around the fringes which should have led to more. However, supplied a couple of sloppy passes, and his box kicking was far too long. Was also penalised a couple of times for not rolling away. I still think that someone other than Phillips is needed at 9, whether Webb is the answer, I don't really know.
10 Rhys Priestland - 3. Shocking kicking display. Dropped an easy take under the high ball, and spilled possession when we were looking threatening. Had his chances, and then some. If a kicking game was the tactic, then why pick Priestland, when Biggar fits the bill better? Biggar from now-on please.
11 George North - 5. Made the wrong decision most of the time. Kicked when he should have passed, costing us an almost certain try. Passed (forwards) when he probably should have kicked. Also knocked the ball on in contact a couple of times. One good run down the wing, skinning Nowell, but promptly messed it up with a forward pass to no-one.
12 Jamie Roberts - 5.5. Stopped at source as he ran at English forwards all game. Pointless grubber scuppered one of our best attacking opportunity. Game-plan needs to change to get the best out of him, instead of simply being used as a battering ram!
13 Jon Davies - 5. Nice offload early should have resulted in a try, but overall looked rusty after being rushed back. Another who was guilty of giving up possession with a poorly executed grubber when we were on the attack.
14 Alex Cuthbert - 6. Quiet for most of the first half, but looked threatening when he did run with the ball, making a couple of breaks. Rushed out of defence for Burrell's try, which proved costly.
15 Leigh Halfpenny - 7.5. Can't question his commitment, making a try saving tackle on big Burrell, dislocating his shoulder in the process. Exceptional place kicking display again keeping us in the game. Also solid under the high ball as always. Guilty of poor kicking out of hand, and seems unwilling to counter. Partly at fault for Burrell's try, finding himself slightly out of position and not able to cover the grubber through.

I'd knock Halfpenny down to a 7, or even 6.5, for his part in the kicking game yesterday. Also, it would have been better for both sides if he hadn't made that phenomenal tackle! Thing is Burrell did pretty much everything right; he didn't ignore Halfpenny but stepped in to counteract the hit - and still went right out!

Additionally, whilst stats may not tell the whole truth, Alun Wyn, Ball and Lydiate all made as many or more tackles than Warbuton, and the latter two guys missed none. Alun Wyn also made more metres than any forward barring the two number 8's. I don't believe that relative to Jake Balls rating, 5 for Wyn-Jones is entirely fair; I just think you've come to expect more from Jones and are taking that into account. And Faletau made pretty much as many as Morgan, which I hadn't expected to see.

As for England: Hartley apparently made 13 tackles missing none - that's backrow level. But he gave away 4 penalties!
Sean Fitzpatrick described Hartley as world class which I doubt many people here would agree with!

 

[Maverick1987]

I'd knock Halfpenny down to a 7, or even 6.5, for his part in the kicking game yesterday. Also, it would have been better for both sides if he hadn't made that phenomenal tackle! Thing is Burrell did pretty much everything right; he didn't ignore Halfpenny but stepped in to counteract the hit - and still went right out!

Additionally, whilst stats may not tell the whole truth, Alun Wyn, Ball and Lydiate all made as many or more tackles than Warbuton, and the latter two guys missed none. Alun Wyn also made more metres than any forward barring the two number 8's. I don't believe that relative to Jake Balls rating, 5 for Wyn-Jones is entirely fair; I just think you've come to expect more from Jones and are taking that into account. And Faletau made pretty much as many as Morgan, which I hadn't expected to see.

As for England: Hartley apparently made 13 tackles missing none - that's backrow level. But he gave away 4 penalties!
Sean Fitzpatrick described Hartley as world class which I doubt many people here would agree with!

I rate Hartley as world class and I firmly believe had he not been suspended would have been starting lion . His darts are great his tackling very good his scrummaging up there with the best and he never takes a backward step he's everything you want in a hooker . I think one of the things he could work on is his carrying but when you have Cole Marler Lawes Launchbury Vunipolas Morgan we don't need him to really . Just his temperament can let him down sometimes (quite a lot in the past not so much recently)

 

[KAPman]

This is an England side that is finding good balance in their play. Since Stuart Lancaster has been in charge they've mainly been driven by their forward play, with a backline efficient in defence and the basic skills but not the most potent or creative in attack, the exception being that win against the All Blacks of course.
But now they've really found good balance, alot of it comes from Danny Care at 9, and Mike Brown at 15. Two players in the form of their lives right now, and could be key for England going into the next world cup. Owen Farrell has also developed into a potent attacker, he's playing with his head up and running at the defence, and through gaps when he sees them, I still do think though he lacks pace, and if he works on that, then he will be a handful for any defence. Their back five forwards 4-8, have a terrific workrate also in defence and attack.

I do actually think that Wales' problems right now is a combination of teams predicting their gameplan alot better than in previous years, and I have to say a wee bit of a hangover from the Lions tour, cause some of them arent playing as sharply this year. Leigh Halfpenny's been good with his goalkicking, and defence, but not as potent in attack. Dan Lydiate has struggled for form, Adam Jones hasnt been as destructive in the scrums, Jamie Roberts hasnt been breaking the gain line as well as he can, George North has been a bit inconsistant in this championship also.
I wouldn't worry too much at all if I were a Wales fan, cause by the time these teams meet again in the world cup, I think Wales will be in better shape, and it will be a close contest, but Wales do need to try and add some variety to their gameplan, try and get a balance of bashup power and guile

 

[Peat]

I'm not saying that the Lions tour is the only reason or even the main reason.

But I think the general existence of a Lions hangover is close to incontrovertible.
I also think that its close to incontrovertible that the Welsh players are, anything else apart, simply not in the best of form. George North doesn't blow a 2 on 1 in favour of a poorly executed kick because of tactics or whatever. He does it because he performed unusually poorly at a key instance. Even if the tactics influenced the decision they didn't influence the execution. You can ignore a couple of such instances but there were so many poorly executed skills that I don't see any other conclusion.

I believe the two are linked. It seems incredibly likely. Of course I may be wrong, and it would be somewhat besides the point, as the main point is that the Welsh players are a considerable margin below their best and that the reason for this is not solely tactical. Tactics are not responsible for players getting basic skills wrong.

If the Welsh players start performing those basic skills right, could Gatlandball work again? I don't see how anyone can categorically say No. It's done over most of the 6N teams in recent years. Yeah, there's other factors involved - other teams have improved, critical Welsh players getting old, weaknesses in key positions, etc.etc. Its quite possible, maybe probable that these factors are more important in the current malaise. But the potential is still there and writing off Gatlandball completely ignores the complicating factors.

I'm no fan of Gatlandball. I've made no secret of this. I believe long term it is to the Welsh detriment. But I will still be nervous about facing it next year, because it can be very effective, and there is far more potential for it to work than is currently being shown.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think too much focus is put on the Wales attacking game plan "Warren Ball", when actually their trump card in the 6nations has been their defence, and THAT got shredded. I think that's where teams have really figured them out. I think the poor attacking game came from that because suddenly they aren't getting turn over ball, they are playing backwards and things like North's kick etc... to me come from a panicking attempt to get back into the game ASAP - so lack of composure.

Wales defend quite narrow with the wingers acting like an extra centre, they want to push you into using a punch group and backing Warburton and co getting in on that. England played a simple attacking plan, they did exactly that on first phase but didn't worry too much about running a punch group off 2nd or 3rd phase instead using the next wave of forwards as blockers and the backs as sliders behind as a spread group.

I just think Mike Catt has figured out their defence.

 

[dullonien]

I'm not saying that the Lions tour is the only reason or even the main reason.

But I think the general existence of a Lions hangover is close to incontrovertible.
I also think that its close to incontrovertible that the Welsh players are, anything else apart, simply not in the best of form. George North doesn't blow a 2 on 1 in favour of a poorly executed kick because of tactics or whatever. He does it because he performed unusually poorly at a key instance. Even if the tactics influenced the decision they didn't influence the execution. You can ignore a couple of such instances but there were so many poorly executed skills that I don't see any other conclusion.

I believe the two are linked. It seems incredibly likely. Of course I may be wrong, and it would be somewhat besides the point, as the main point is that the Welsh players are a considerable margin below their best and that the reason for this is not solely tactical. Tactics are not responsible for players getting basic skills wrong.

If the Welsh players start performing those basic skills right, could Gatlandball work again? I don't see how anyone can categorically say No. It's done over most of the 6N teams in recent years. Yeah, there's other factors involved - other teams have improved, critical Welsh players getting old, weaknesses in key positions, etc.etc. Its quite possible, maybe probable that these factors are more important in the current malaise. But the potential is still there and writing off Gatlandball completely ignores the complicating factors.

I'm no fan of Gatlandball. I've made no secret of this. I believe long term it is to the Welsh detriment. But I will still be nervous about facing it next year, because it can be very effective, and there is far more potential for it to work than is currently being shown.

There was certainly a lack of basic skills, but I don't think that changed the fact that we were second best throughout that match. We probably created enough opportunities to win the match, if the players were clinical, but that would have been an injustice to England. My biggest gripe with the current tactics is with the kicking game, it simply isn't working. It applies little pressure on the opposition, simply handing the ball back time and time again. This has always been the case against the big 3, with poorly executed kicks often being our downfall, especially against Australia.

I'm not necessarily calling for a complete overhaul of our game plan, I'm calling for it to be tweaked. We need to work on our lineout, so that we can feel comfortable at kicking to touch and applying pressure on the opposition lineout. Our own lineout needs work, and if that means starting Ken Owens then so be it. We also need to vary things in attack, because there's been very little evidence of genuine backline moves leading to try's during Gatland's reign as head coach. Most of the tries we score come from turn-over possession, or moments of individual skill/power (Shane Williams when he was involved, North and Roberts more recently, Tipuric against England last year).

If we don't change our tactics, we might still do reasonably well in next years WC if the players are on top form, possibly beating England. But we'll likely still come unstuck against Australia, and lose to SA or NZ if we make it out of the pool.

 

[Big Ewis]

Well I think it's a bad year for Wales altogether. Even against France, the side they beat by the widest margin so far, a side that doesn't know what playing together is, they really didn't look all that. They weren't very threatening on attack, just a handful at times because of their sheer size, but really should've punished France more.

Their forwards were a bit overlooked against England I believe, they were present and protecting the rucks, contesting; although they weren't as willing as the English, didn't have that fire; it's just from then on afterwards they weren't inspired. They kept kicking the ball back, aimlessly at times, to England for excellent counterballs.
It's like they tried attacking, just a tiny bit, then just gave up almost immediately, literally gave the ball up to the opponent.

Their defense is another thing.

 

[goodNumber10]

Booooo! Hoooooo! Hoooo! Poor Gethin!

Gethin Jenkins treatment worries Robin McBryde - BBC Rugby

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26533504

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Watched the match back yesterday and these are my player ratings:

1: Joe Marler - Was part of a really industrious front row effort in the tackle area and at the breakdown who between them made 30 tackles and combined they missed fewer than our backrow! Marlers linespeed is always top notch and he is very important in chopping down offensive players early. He had a steady enough day at the scrum barring a couple of big pressure moments, which is not a bad return against Adam Jones. 7

2. Dylan Hartley - Excellent throwing for the most part, barring one lapse. He's popping up less often in the scrum than he often does. He gave away 4 penalties though for different things which would have cost us a game in other circumstances. A couple were instances where he would have barely had the time to make a decision, but still that reflex decision making is something players need. A pretty strong work-rate and 13 tackles made save his score from being lower.5.5

3. David Wilson - Good game from the big man - I was worried after the first scrum but he seemed to settle. Whether or not he was as much at fault as Gethin Jenkins I don't know - but Poite clearly seemed to think Wilson was ok and it's surely a huge victory to have the prop opposite you carded. He got stuck in at ruck time and had one fantastic waddle towards the line. I'd love for him to keep his place when Cole returns. 7.5

4. Joe Launchbury : Hitting rucks and chasing down wingers, he was everywhere really. His carrying is much improved - I remember him smashing through an attempted double tackle from Alun Wyn-Jones and Adam Jones. He's carrying in a way which I think often typifies tighthead locks - not necessarily making loads of metres but drawing in multiple tacklers and being tiring to tackle. His speed and strength combined just make him such a handful - I remember him scragging Philips after a 5 metre scrum and almost dragging him over Wales' try line. Lower tackle count than any other forward but that's ok considering the tackle counts of the back-row + Lawes Top top player. 8

5. Courtney Lawes: His best performance in an England shirt by some way. He had it all! Carrying, shuddering tackles (such as that on Roberts) He made a charge down and regathered and I think that led to points. Lovely flick out the back to Burrell for the 'Not-a-try' - stole the odd lineout and mastered ours. I think the penalty against him was harsh as I think Webb released him quite early and then re-grabbed his ankle, which made it look like Lawes was held. Imo it's no coincidence that he's in his best form with the continuous run of games he's had - he's injury prone which often disrupts his momentum. But hell does he have some now! 9/9.5

6. Tom Wood: Made the most tackles and only missed 1. Quite often however he was the second tackler in so was putting in a hit with Robshaw already round the guys legs. Kept a lid on Webb even when the latter seemed to be finding some space. Wood and Marler practise the chop tackle somewhat clumsily but ultimately effectively and Wood caused lots of disruption at the breakdown, such as putting in the boot where possible. 7

7. Chris Robshaw: Quieter than he sometimes is; he dropped off a couple of tackles, and his carrying was less evident. However he led our linespeed really well and the workrate was still there. Was visibly irrate with himself when he and Hartley gave away a penalty and I thought that showed his discipline and high standards. 7

8. Ben Morgan: One of his best games in an England shirt. Not just carrying well but a good passing game went with it. He knew when to pass and when to take it up himself. Dragged Liam Williams into touch when Wales were on the break, won a few turnovers and lasted the duration 8

9. Danny Care: Top decision making. Varied his passing game and his kicking game was vastly improved. Knew when he had to tackle and when to leave it for his forwards. Was solely responsible for the first try with two successive quick penalties. 8

10. Owen Farrell: Definitely one of his best games in an England shirt. Kicking from hand and tee was on the money. This said, he managed to infuriate me with his attempted cross-kick to Nowell. Surely if you're going for such a manoeuvre you've got to at least allow the winger to run onto it - not just kick it so that he has to stand still and wait for the ball to arrive. Farrell still looks awkward taking the ball to the line, and his laborious attempts to straighten and pass mean he WILL be intercepted one of these days. Almost happened with North on sunday. Nuisance around rucks and likes to put the boot in. Great to have him in a match 23 even if he's not a truly flair player. 7.5

11. Johnny May: He will always make metres but so far he has been guilty of some questionable decision making, e.g on sunday he decided not to pass to Nowell outside him which resulted in a turn over. Not backing himself pace wise, and sometimes looks unsure what he's trying to do. Mistakes have crept in for example the missed try against Ireland. He beats defenders but I'd rather he went forward a tad earlier. Dropped one high ball which he could have caught. Still, he can be dangerous and will always beat defenders. The worry for him should be that with returning injured players, he may not find himself in the picture all too soon 6

12. Billy Twelvetrees: Top game. Much improved distribution. It was he who put Wilson in for his 'gallop' towards the line. Dealt with the physicality of Roberts and North really well, leading Englands defense. Perfect kick for Burrells try. Still think that he maybe tries to force it when taking the ball forwards himself, resulting in him coming across rather muddled when on the ball. Better decision making though and largely knew when to run and when to kick.

13. Luther Burrell: I really did not expect him to look comfortable at 13 but I feel he's more a threat there than he ever has at 12. I think that, bearing in mind the options England have now at 12, and the incoming Burgess, he should take very seriously the idea of a positional switch. We simply have fewer options at 13. Big defensive hits on the welsh backs, in the right place at the right time, great finish for his try. Gave away one penalty for coming in at the side after Wales had counter-rucked through, definitely understandable mistake to make considering the chaos. 8

14. Jack Nowell: Like May, has made mistakes, but it doesn't seem to put him off. Has got real acceleration with which he always seems to make metres. Am a fan of him, but he'll be under pressure, like May, when the likes of Wade and Yarde return. One missed tackle on George North which might have been costly, but otherwise has been a rock in defense all tournament. I think Lancaster will always have time for a wing built along the lines of Nowell, and imo he has a better chance of keeping his place than May. 7

15. Mike Brown: Continues to impress. Not just his carrying but his Gary owens and under the high ball. Seems to give the other players confidence to have him around. Best full-back in europe right now 8


Subs:

Mako Vunipola: Some nice darts with ball in hand but I struggle to see him staying in the picture if he cannot improve his scrummaging. Was bent over backwards in two scrums by Adam Jones and co.

Tom Youngs: Better lineout, got busy and kept the status quo.

Henry Thomas: Had one good scrum I recall. Also make a huge tackle in the Welsh 22.

David Attwood: Some more shuddering tackles. He's become a key key part of our 80 minute game. Really maturing as a player and is of a type England need.


Quick Note on Wales:

Toby Faletau: Watching back, he just made a couple of wrong decisions. Tried to offload when it wasn't on, and I remember him breaking away a touch too early from a Welsh driving maul. Was kept quiet at the breakdown.

Alex Cuthbert: Was dumped on his arse attempting to tackle Owen Farrell in the second half - really not on when you consider his size. Defensively Wales need better.

 

[Tony Manx]

Watched the match back yesterday and these are my player ratings:

1: Joe Marler - Was part of a really industrious front row effort in the tackle area and at the breakdown who between them made 30 tackles and combined they missed fewer than our backrow! Marlers linespeed is always top notch and he is very important in chopping down offensive players early. He had a steady enough day at the scrum barring a couple of big pressure moments, which is not a bad return against Adam Jones. 7

2. Dylan Hartley - Excellent throwing for the most part, barring one lapse. He's popping up less often in the scrum than he often does. He gave away 4 penalties though for different things which would have cost us a game in other circumstances. A couple were instances where he would have barely had the time to make a decision, but still that reflex decision making is something players need. A pretty strong work-rate and 13 tackles made save his score from being lower.5.5

3. David Wilson - Good game from the big man - I was worried after the first scrum but he seemed to settle. Whether or not he was as much at fault as Gethin Jenkins I don't know - but Poite clearly seemed to think Wilson was ok and it's surely a huge victory to have the prop opposite you carded. He got stuck in at ruck time and had one fantastic waddle towards the line. I'd love for him to keep his place when Cole returns. 7.5

4. Joe Launchbury : Hitting rucks and chasing down wingers, he was everywhere really. His carrying is much improved - I remember him smashing through an attempted double tackle from Alun Wyn-Jones and Adam Jones. He's carrying in a way which I think often typifies tighthead locks - not necessarily making loads of metres but drawing in multiple tacklers and being tiring to tackle. His speed and strength combined just make him such a handful - I remember him scragging Philips after a 5 metre scrum and almost dragging him over Wales' try line. Lower tackle count than any other forward but that's ok considering the tackle counts of the back-row + Lawes Top top player. 8

5. Courtney Lawes: His best performance in an England shirt by some way. He had it all! Carrying, shuddering tackles (such as that on Roberts) He made a charge down and regathered and I think that led to points. Lovely flick out the back to Burrell for the 'Not-a-try' - stole the odd lineout and mastered ours. I think the penalty against him was harsh as I think Webb released him quite early and then re-grabbed his ankle, which made it look like Lawes was held. Imo it's no coincidence that he's in his best form with the continuous run of games he's had - he's injury prone which often disrupts his momentum. But hell does he have some now! 9/9.5

6. Tom Wood: Made the most tackles and only missed 1. Quite often however he was the second tackler in so was putting in a hit with Robshaw already round the guys legs. Kept a lid on Webb even when the latter seemed to be finding some space. Wood and Marler practise the chop tackle somewhat clumsily but ultimately effectively and Wood caused lots of disruption at the breakdown, such as putting in the boot where possible. 7

7. Chris Robshaw: Quieter than he sometimes is; he dropped off a couple of tackles, and his carrying was less evident. However he led our linespeed really well and the workrate was still there. Was visibly irrate with himself when he and Hartley gave away a penalty and I thought that showed his discipline and high standards. 7

8. Ben Morgan: One of his best games in an England shirt. Not just carrying well but a good passing game went with it. He knew when to pass and when to take it up himself. Dragged Liam Williams into touch when Wales were on the break, won a few turnovers and lasted the duration 8

9. Danny Care: Top decision making. Varied his passing game and his kicking game was vastly improved. Knew when he had to tackle and when to leave it for his forwards. Was solely responsible for the first try with two successive quick penalties. 8

10. Owen Farrell: Definitely one of his best games in an England shirt. Kicking from hand and tee was on the money. This said, he managed to infuriate me with his attempted cross-kick to Nowell. Surely if you're going for such a manoeuvre you've got to at least allow the winger to run onto it - not just kick it so that he has to stand still and wait for the ball to arrive. Farrell still looks awkward taking the ball to the line, and his laborious attempts to straighten and pass mean he WILL be intercepted one of these days. Almost happened with North on sunday. Nuisance around rucks and likes to put the boot in. Great to have him in a match 23 even if he's not a truly flair player. 7.5

11. Johnny May: He will always make metres but so far he has been guilty of some questionable decision making, e.g on sunday he decided not to pass to Nowell outside him which resulted in a turn over. Not backing himself pace wise, and sometimes looks unsure what he's trying to do. Mistakes have crept in for example the missed try against Ireland. He beats defenders but I'd rather he went forward a tad earlier. Dropped one high ball which he could have caught. Still, he can be dangerous and will always beat defenders. The worry for him should be that with returning injured players, he may not find himself in the picture all too soon 6

12. Billy Twelvetrees: Top game. Much improved distribution. It was he who put Wilson in for his 'gallop' towards the line. Dealt with the physicality of Roberts and North really well, leading Englands defense. Perfect kick for Burrells try. Still think that he maybe tries to force it when taking the ball forwards himself, resulting in him coming across rather muddled when on the ball. Better decision making though and largely knew when to run and when to kick.

13. Luther Burrell: I really did not expect him to look comfortable at 13 but I feel he's more a threat there than he ever has at 12. I think that, bearing in mind the options England have now at 12, and the incoming Burgess, he should take very seriously the idea of a positional switch. We simply have fewer options at 13. Big defensive hits on the welsh backs, in the right place at the right time, great finish for his try. Gave away one penalty for coming in at the side after Wales had counter-rucked through, definitely understandable mistake to make considering the chaos. 8

14. Jack Nowell: Like May, has made mistakes, but it doesn't seem to put him off. Has got real acceleration with which he always seems to make metres. Am a fan of him, but he'll be under pressure, like May, when the likes of Wade and Yarde return. One missed tackle on George North which might have been costly, but otherwise has been a rock in defense all tournament. I think Lancaster will always have time for a wing built along the lines of Nowell, and imo he has a better chance of keeping his place than May. 7

15. Mike Brown: Continues to impress. Not just his carrying but his Gary owens and under the high ball. Seems to give the other players confidence to have him around. Best full-back in europe right now 8


Subs:

Mako Vunipola: Some nice darts with ball in hand but I struggle to see him staying in the picture if he cannot improve his scrummaging. Was bent over backwards in two scrums by Adam Jones and co.

Tom Youngs: Better lineout, got busy and kept the status quo.

Henry Thomas: Had one good scrum I recall. Also make a huge tackle in the Welsh 22.

David Attwood: Some more shuddering tackles. He's become a key key part of our 80 minute game. Really maturing as a player and is of a type England need.


Quick Note on Wales:

Toby Faletau: Watching back, he just made a couple of wrong decisions. Tried to offload when it wasn't on, and I remember him breaking away a touch too early from a Welsh driving maul. Was kept quiet at the breakdown.

Alex Cuthbert: Was dumped on his arse attempting to tackle Owen Farrell in the second half - really not on when you consider his size. Defensively Wales need better.

No score for 36 so I would put 6.5....disagree on Hartley's score and despite penalties would give him 7 and May 5 other than that excellent post

 

[TRF_Olyy]

13. Luther Burrell: I really did not expect him to look comfortable at 13 but I feel he's more a threat there than he ever has at 12. I think that, bearing in mind the options England have now at 12, and the incoming Burgess, he should take very seriously the idea of a positional switch. We simply have fewer options at 13. Big defensive hits on the welsh backs, in the right place at the right time, great finish for his try. Gave away one penalty for coming in at the side after Wales had counter-rucked through, definitely understandable mistake to make considering the chaos. 8

Completely agree with this - I was worried about him at 13 but he's gone very very well, and it's not like he's gone up against nobodies - Basta will have tested his defence considerably, and then he's gone up against two test lions in BOD and Davies.

An Eastmond/Burrell midfield is a very exciting thought.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree with the idea that Burrell looks better at 13 than he does at 12.
Of course we haven't seen him at 12 for England, but it seems that way so far.

 

[goodNumber10]

yeah, i'm very happy with the midfield, i really hope they leave it as it is...unless injury or loss of form disrupts it. As much as i like Tuilagi, Burrell is a more rounded player and in a lot of ways reminds me of Mike Tindall - he got walloped a couple of times by Bastereaud in the firstgame then learnt from it and picked better lines.

He's a handful. i'd still like an out and out strike runner in the back three though.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Do you disagree with everything else Olyy?

Burrell is a better 13 than North - and Jim Mallinder has shown a willingness to play the latter there. Maybe he'll start to consider Burrell as an option there too.

@Tony I meant to give Twelvetrees a 7.5 for his all-round game.
Hartley was strong in many aspects but I just don't think you can score a 7 when you give away 4 penalties - that's potentially 2/3 of Wales' points against us!

 

[Peat]

Quite. If Dylan Hartley hadn't been such a gumba, that match would never have been close at all. To get a 7 when giving away 4 penalties you have to be playing like a Saffa hooker. And he wasn't. Nowhere near. The Youngs-Hartley debate remains open.

Twelvetrees was at least an 8, all of our best creative moments came from him. I feel people are being a little generous to Fazlet.

I also think May was better than Nowell. No missed tackles and that cut-back inside was a major part in Burrell's try.

Care arguably an 8.5 or higher.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The thing about May is I feel he's a bit too keen on looking for the glory himself. Sometimes it is better to get the pass off but he seems to want to go alone. Individually he is good but this is a team sport and he isn't coming across as a team player.

 

[Maverick1987]

The thing about May is I feel he's a bit too keen on looking for the glory himself. Sometimes it is better to get the pass off but he seems to want to go alone. Individually he is good but this is a team sport and he isn't coming across as a team player.

He's a wing . They always think about themselves

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

He's a wing . They always think about themselves

Not something you should do when you frequently run back into the centre of the pitch.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The thing about May is I feel he's a bit too keen on looking for the glory himself. Sometimes it is better to get the pass off but he seems to want to go alone. Individually he is good but this is a team sport and he isn't coming across as a team player.

I think that's very harsh.
Looking for gaps =/= looking for glory =/= being selfish. I've got no qualms with him running laterally if the other option is running down 2m forwards and then being dragged in to touch by the wall of defenders in front of him.

 

[Tony Manx]

The thing about May is I feel he's a bit too keen on looking for the glory himself. Sometimes it is better to get the pass off but he seems to want to go alone. Individually he is good but this is a team sport and he isn't coming across as a team player.

I agree and, because of his running looking for glory, he gave two penalties which were blatant and unavoidable as he was isolated yet he is supported when Hartley is vilified when at least two of his penalties were extremely harsh....eg for one he was adjudged to take the ball in an offside position when only the ref, and reckon it was a guess, could decide who touched the high ball, not even a second before the catch, as between defender and attacker!

Incidentally, Hartley is also being criticised for his all round game yet he was the centre figure in a front row that won the ref over, was visible in defence and attack and he also threw more or less infallibly.....methinks his reputation with some and the fact that he WAS an arrogant dick have not been forgotten or forgiven!! Without him, we would be like the French without Swarezski (Sp!) and stuck with their second or even fourth choice who was USELESS!!