2014 6 Nations: England vs Wales (Round 4)

[TRF_Olyy]

May is nowhere near as being made out here (though I don't think he's quite as good as jnuh makes out either ). I really do like him, though, and I don't think he's done anything really wrong. Does crab a lot, but then it often pays off for Gloucester. He gave away one penalty doing it today, I wouldn't say it's a mmmaaajjjoorrr issue. If he'd have run straight forward he'd have hit defence, why not dance around a bit and try and find a mismatch? Not like there was a lot on on the halfway line that he's scuppered. I'd rather our wingers are allowed to play naturally/to their instincts than tell them to stick on the wing and if they get the ball then to run straight forwards.

I like both Nowell and May - they've both gone, for the most part, well this Six Nations. Yarde and Wade won't walk straight back in to the side, and that's a good thing as competition will only push the players harder.
The way I view it is we have Wade vs May, as two wingers who can spark something from nothing/can beat defenders for fun with agility/speed, and Yarde vs Nowell as the more defensively solid/powerful wingers - not sure whether this is actually the case, as I can't remember which wings Yarde/Wade play on/whether they can do both. Could pick two names out of a hat and end up with a top draw wing partnership though. And, as May and Nowell can both play 15, hopefully Wade/Yarde coming back to fitness will spell the end of Goode in the 23.

 

[Patchey]

Goode is ever present. Goode is omniscient. Goode will never be ended.

Not sure what came over me then!

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm not calling for May to be dropped at all btw.

May is nowhere near as being made out here (though I don't think he's quite as good as jnuh makes out either ). I really do like him, though, and I don't think he's done anything really wrong. Does crab a lot, but then it often pays off for Gloucester. He gave away one penalty doing it today, I wouldn't say it's a mmmaaajjjoorrr issue.
I like both Nowell and May - they've both gone, for the most part, well this Six Nations.

I'd pretty much agree with that.
Jonny May's unpredictability is both good and bad at the same time - he is equally as unpredictable for his own team as he is for the opposition.

Both May and Nowell have been massive improvements on our wings in recent times.

I also agree with you on who is competing with each other.
I think it's probably Nowell vs Yarde and May vs Wade (Watson, even).
But they play on opposite sides, Olyy (Yarde and May on the left and Wade and Nowell on the right).

Let's move this to the England 6N thread, shall we.

 

[jrZielinski]

may will be good if he could run in a straight line

 

[j'nuh]

I ain't saying May is playing fantastic by any means. Not putting him on level with England's star backs this tournament (Brown, Care, Burrell). I just find it frustrating to see people slating May and praising Nowell, when the stats speak for themselves in how May has been better.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think it's probably Nowell vs Yarde and May vs Wade (Watson, even).

Damn it, I'd forgotten about Watson - and then Foden coming back to fitness as well.

So we've got to pick a back line from:
11. May, Yarde
12. Twelvetrees, Eastmond, (Burrell)
13. Burrell, Tuilagi
14. Nowell, Wade, Watson
15. Brown, Foden, (Watson)

Then there's also the likes of Daly, Joseph, Sharples, Miller etc. from the Saxons pushing for honours.


Some serious depth in the backs, makes a change from previous years!
Only worry is halfbacks: Care is head and sholders above the rest. Dickson is good, but nothing special - same with Wigglesworth. Youngs can(/could) be great, but rarely shows it these days and certainly not in an England shirt. Simpson looked top draw before but injuries hampered his England chances and his form has been up and down for Wasps. Robson looks very good at Gloucester - bit young ATM but getting good amounts of game time.

Farrell has had a good series so far, no qualms with him being in the side. Ford has been very good for Bath (bar a few blips) - beyond that: Burns is terrible, Myler is OK but don't really think he's international level. Cipriani, beyond that, who has had a hell of a season.
Sam Hill has looked good for Exeter, though didn't really shine for Saxons (not many did, mind) and his kicking could be better (was pretty poor vs Bath this morning).

 

[ratsapprentice]

---I'm going to reply in the other thread now---

 

[j'nuh]

tbh, if we wanted one creative, one solid player, why not Monye as the solid player? At least Monye has some particular skills that are definitely international quality. I'm not sure what Nowell's niche actually is at the minute. Wade would come in for me.

It was quite refreshing to hear today that England had the best attacking back three in the tournament though. When did that last happen? :huh:

 

[Rich Taff]

I think I've developed Rugby Tourettes Syndrom. I spent all afternoon unexpectedly shouting 'Stop F***ing kicking it!'.

 

[j'nuh]

Wouldn't it be great if Lawes coming back to the form was the start of all the 2010 crew picking up form again? Add in the 2010 variants of Youngs, Foden, Ashton and Cole...

Who would actually get the nod out of 2010 Foden vs 2014 Brown? I'm inclined to say Foden..?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think I'd take Brown, though it's an incredibly hard choice.
2010 Foden was very very good, but it was his link work with Ashton that really set him apart, those two had a fantastic understanding of each other.

I'm hoping this break for Cole allows his body some time to recover and recoup, and he comes back stronger from it - though it's hard to judge whether he will considering it's a neck injury that's put him out.

 

[dullonien]

My player ratings for the Welsh lot:

01 Gethin Jenkins - 4.5. Equalling Stephen Jones' record cap haul, but really struggled I thought. Secured a good turn-over early on, but afterwards he was rightly penalised (imo) for boring in at the scrum, and missed a number of tackles. Paul James' impact in the scrum was noticeable and should have been brought on once it was clear that Jenkins was on the wrong side of Poite in the scrum, before he put us under pressure by being yellow carded! A decision needs to be made now about whether he can make it to the WC.
02 Richard Hibbard - 5. Crucial over-throw at a lineout a few metres from our line allowed England to take full control of the game with Burrell going over in the corner. Struggled to impose himself on the game with his carrying or tackling. Whilst he's been great over the past couple of years, maybe Owens' superior all round game, in particular his lineout throwing, would be more beneficial than Hibbard's physicality.
03 Adam Jones - 5. I'm not going to judge him harshly on the scrum, as I thought he applied pressure on his side. The one scrum with him and James on the pitch went very well. The rest of his game today was poor though. Missed a number of tackles, and offered little else of real note.
04 Jake Ball - 7. Another good performance, putting in a good defensive shift. Secured some good lineout ball, but juggled with one simple take.
05 Alun-Wyn Jones - 5. For me, the most disappointing Wales player thus far (because he's usually world class). Usually excellent, but recently he's been poor. Today he missed tackles, and knocked the ball on in contact. He did try hard, but is quite a bit below his best atm.
06 Dan Lydiate - 6. An OK performance, putting in plenty of trademark chop tackles. Ultimately though, he made fewer tackles than Ball and Warbs, despite being in the side for that sole purpose. Tipuric is imo the most talented player we've produced in a long time, surely a place should be made for him, and Lydiate should be the one to miss out.
07 Sam Warburton - 7.5. One of the few Wales players to really step-up imo. Huge work rate, making a lot of tackles, and making yards carrying the ball. I think there are some question marks about his captaincy when things aren't going to plan. Is he capable, or willing, to get the players together mid half, and say that things aren't working and the tactics need to change?
08 Toby Faletau - 6. Some good things, some sloppy play as well.

09 Rhys Webb - 5.5. Like Faletau, did a few good things, making a couple of half-breaks around the fringes which should have led to more. However, supplied a couple of sloppy passes, and his box kicking was far too long. Was also penalised a couple of times for not rolling away. I still think that someone other than Phillips is needed at 9, whether Webb is the answer, I don't really know.
10 Rhys Priestland - 3. Shocking kicking display. Dropped an easy take under the high ball, and spilled possession when we were looking threatening. Had his chances, and then some. If a kicking game was the tactic, then why pick Priestland, when Biggar fits the bill better? Biggar from now-on please.
11 George North - 5. Made the wrong decision most of the time. Kicked when he should have passed, costing us an almost certain try. Passed (forwards) when he probably should have kicked. Also knocked the ball on in contact a couple of times. One good run down the wing, skinning Nowell, but promptly messed it up with a forward pass to no-one.
12 Jamie Roberts - 5.5. Stopped at source as he ran at English forwards all game. Pointless grubber scuppered one of our best attacking opportunity. Game-plan needs to change to get the best out of him, instead of simply being used as a battering ram!
13 Jon Davies - 5. Nice offload early should have resulted in a try, but overall looked rusty after being rushed back. Another who was guilty of giving up possession with a poorly executed grubber when we were on the attack.
14 Alex Cuthbert - 6. Quiet for most of the first half, but looked threatening when he did run with the ball, making a couple of breaks. Rushed out of defence for Burrell's try, which proved costly.
15 Leigh Halfpenny - 7.5. Can't question his commitment, making a try saving tackle on big Burrell, dislocating his shoulder in the process. Exceptional place kicking display again keeping us in the game. Also solid under the high ball as always. Guilty of poor kicking out of hand, and seems unwilling to counter. Partly at fault for Burrell's try, finding himself slightly out of position and not able to cover the grubber through.

 

[Zed]

England seem to be building nicely towards the 2015 World Cup. They've been playing with quite a few injuries this 6N have they not? So they have lots of depth. Starting to get worried now with us in their pool, along with Wales, although they haven't be at their best lately. I don't think we will beat England at home if they continue to improve like they are. They don't have many players that would make a World XV, but are playing well as a team and Lancaster seems to know his sh*t.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

England seem to be building nicely towards the 2015 World Cup. They've been playing with quite a few injuries this 6N have they not? So they have lots of depth. Starting to get worried now with us in their pool, along with Wales, although they haven't be at their best lately. I don't think we will beat England at home if they continue to improve like they are. They don't have many players that would make a World XV, but are playing well as a team and Lancaster seems to know his sh*t.

Can't really agree with the whole "England don't have many world XV players" thing. Lawes, Launchbury, Brown, B Vunipola and Care could all be contenders for a world XV when on form. Wales like to think their team is full of "world class" players yet too often they get shown up. Just like the English arrogance or boring English 10 man rugby, it's a line often produced that is losing all meaning due to simply not being true for England any more. Hell there are people who still say that the 2003 England team contained basically no players who would make a world XV when they were beating everyone.

 

[LittleGuy]

I think sevens is rather useless as a development tool. There's a completely different skill set required and in many ways playing a lot of sevens could prove to be detrimental to an aspiring fifteens player. It'd be much more beneficial to have the Saxons side take a more active role, playing games more regularly against the tier two nations.

That hasn't been the case with Canada, in fact it's been a fantastic development tool for us with our limited options, virtually all our XV's backs and lots of the loose forwards have seen action in 7's and I can't think of many players I'd say have been harmed from it, possibly Hirayama has as he plays XV's like it's 7's.

Don't think the Tier Two sides are interested in playing the likes of the Saxons anymore we'd be better off playing one another(as is happening now with the PNC and other events), I'd rather have games against the likes of Tonga than a Saxons game attended by a handful of fans and not drawing any interest in the Tier Two and three markets where the game needs to grow. The ENC sides will also have troubles getting players released for games against the "A" sides since it's hard enough for them to get player's released for full cap matches.

 

[Shaggy]

That hasn't been the case with Canada, in fact it's been a fantastic development tool for us with our limited options, virtually all our XV's backs and lots of the loose forwards have seen action in 7's and I can't think of many players I'd say have been harmed from it, possibly Hirayama has as he plays XV's like it's 7's.

Don't think the Tier Two sides are interested in playing the likes of the Saxons anymore we'd be better off playing one another(as is happening now with the PNC and other events), I'd rather have games against the likes of Tonga than a Saxons game attended by a handful of fans and not drawing any interest in the Tier Two and three markets where the game needs to grow. The ENC sides will also have troubles getting players released for games against the "A" sides since it's hard enough for them to get player's released for full cap matches.

Seems to have worked pretty well for our mob (the All Blacks) as a development tool too ... in fact there's been cases where the All Black management has sent players back to sevens to hone their skills, and improve their fitness.

for tier two XV's sides, seven's is a great development tool, as it allows the country to retain the players in a professional capacity and have them available for XV's internationals, without the hassle of getting releases from the European clubs.

... I agree with you comment about the Saxons too ... more test matches are what is needed

 

[St George]

Good to see St George extinguish the Dragons fire.

Can't see why an England v Wales 6N match thread should have continuous discussions on 7's....

On May & Nowell, i agree with both sides of the arguement in that although they have not been to bad, they havent exactly set the place alight either. I hope that we can see some game time for others like Yarde, Wade & Watson before the next 6N in time for the WC. Both incumbents have shown they are not fazed by the step up, and they both need to take this experience into their domestic game and improve their alround skills.

Burrell has been superb IMO and I hope he doesnt get dropped for Manu. I personally think that Burrell & Manu could be an outstanding Centre partnership finally for England. 36 is another who hasnt done much wrong so far, although he has made mistakes, he seems to be showing progress and improvement in the role.

Would agree that Parling may struggle to return, and i too would keep the Lock personnel just as they are.

I think the 6N ***le would be a bonus at this stage, and i'm not too bothered if Ireland take it as they have played well throughout. For me, the reversal on Wales to end their mini-run was essential, and to also go to Murryfield and show that all that Braveheart crap is pointless was a joy to watch. Next, to be able to go to Rome and not just win, but with abundance and not a hint of lucky England. But i think this Englands mindset is different from the past two years. Last year we saw a good result against Scotland followed by another away in Dublin, and everyone in white was talking world-beaters after the preceding win against the ABs. Then the slowdown and abject winning displays against France & Italy before the thrashing in Cardiff. IMO the Welsh did us a favour that day and it was indeed a painful bump to earth. This year has been a totally different set of results 7 more importantly, performances, with a good display in defeat followed by 3 wins with improvement in each. Italy should be afraid....very afraid, IMO. Fingers crossed of course.

Now comes the whinge....
All week i have read about how the Welsh Lions (12 or 1200 ) should have the nous and ability to beat the almost Lionless English, but there was a few things that kept springing to mind. 1st..the teams that beat the Ozzies had a reasonable amount of Irish & English in them to warrant some credit for the series win. But the more telling stat is that in the AI's, the formidable Welsh Lions became fireless Dragons again, whilst the inferiour Lionless English actually beat the Ozzies on their own. IMO to much is made of the Lions makeup squads in reference to their individual nations, as it really is a miracle sometimes that this scratch barbarians type squad can win at all. Great to watch and i will be a Lions fan forever, but nothing should be taken to seriously in context to the national sides.

Looking forward to the early start next week, as these late ones are killing me. Just had a hernia op recently, so hopefully be able to have a few beers after Rome instead of just going to bed.

 

[goodNumber10]

Oh come off it. You're simply factually wrong:

Passing:

England vs Wales - May made 5 passes (to 2 kicks and 8 runs), Nowell made 1 pass (to 4 kicks and 15 runs)
England vs Ireland - May made 5 passes (to 3 kicks and 11 runs), Nowell made 3 passes (to 2 kicks and 11 runs)
England vs Scotland - May made 7 passes (to 1 kick and 11 runs), Nowell made 3 passes (to 1 kick and 7 runs)

So May passes more...

Running sideways? Well the stats count meters made as meters going forward, so:

England vs Wales - May made 10 meters per carry, Nowell made 7
England vs Ireland - May made 7.3 meters per carry, Nowell made 3.7
England vs Scotland - May made 8.4 meters per carry, Nowell made 3.7

Let's look at tackle stats:

May has made 10 tackles and missed none. 100% success rate.
Nowell has made 15 tackles and missed 4. 79% success rate.

How about penalties given away? (Excluding France game, where Nowell gave away another 2.)

May - 2. Nowell - 3.

Defenders beaten?

May - 17. Nowell - 10.

Clean breaks?

May - 4. Nowell - 2.

There is one stat that Nowell is equal to May on. Both have been turned over three times over the course of the last three games. That's it.

Also, away from stats, you can just see May position himself better, works with Brown better, rucks better (as I said before, Nowell's inability to ruck cost England a possession today) and is faster. Despite not showing it this tournament, he's also a faaaaaar more prolific try scorer.

I'm not blaming Nowell. He's got a lot of potential. But he's still very inexperienced even at club level. The early signs are that he could be a good player, but I don't think he's ready yet.

But I'm actually shocked that anyone can say Nowell has been better. May worries people because he makes so much time for himself whilst on the ball. But I'd have thought people would have enjoyed actually seeing someone who can work a bit of magic from nothing. Yes he probes the line (much like, I don't know, Shane Williams did), but he nearly always makes a ton of meters doing it, running outside of people. To then fault him for hanging on at several points, when one, he only had one penalty today so it was obviously not at several points, and two, hanging on is a pretty instinctual reaction... the point is why should he have to be holding on if he were being properly supported by his team? Australia wouldn't drop Folau because he makes a lot of breaks and his team may sometimes leave him isolated. The point to take away from it is to tell people to support the player better.

where did you get those stats from? as they don't tally up with the official Accenture ones.

The problem with stats is that they are all blither unless interpreted correctly and nothing that you posted there shows the effectiveness of any of those things.

No point making 20 tackles if you concede ground every time, no point beating 20 defenders if you only make one meter after, No point passing when you've run up a blind alley and decided you've got no where left to go.

Making yards is fine but the flow of the ball is more natural for a left wing so May should get more clear runs down the touchline, wheras Nowell needs to go looking - May got more clean runs but Nowell was involved in the move of the game via his support running.

Regardless it's completely pointless comparing Nowell and May as they are playing different positions and running in different traffic... compare May to Yarde or another person playing on the left.

I like May but he's not done it for me (personal preference don't take take it personally), Nowell has.

 

[Largejanner]

Gatland`s sh*t-eating smile when he couldn't bring himself to conceded that England were the better side yesterday was telling.

 

[Big Ewis]

Good to see St George extinguish the Dragons fire.

been waiting for this one, haven't ya ?

And I agree with the "England DOES class players", but only just now. There aren't too many players I'd think of all the way up until recently for England to make a 6N XV, although they played well together as a team. Right now that isn't the case anymore.

Gatland`s sh*t-eating smile when he couldn't bring himself to conceded that England were the better side yesterday was telling.

the fact that you're calling it a "sh*t-eating smile" is quite telling itself !