2013 Junior World Championship

[Darwin]

I find this very hard to believe.

Probably because it is blatantly untrue. It is probably one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen suggested :lol: Sifplay clearly has no idea what he is talking about (or is simply trolling), so I can't be bothered wasting my time on him.

 

[sifplay]

I find this very hard to believe.

I bet you believe that Pacific Islanders and Moari's are the same as well?

 

[nickdnz]

Don't be selfish man. It means that Fiji and Samoa are losing their top youngsters.

Their heritage states that the children always belong to their village. Most of them are born in NZ but grew up in Samoa or Fiji with a gran or other family member. The only reason the Kiwi's use them is to get other youngster to play for NZ as role models play a big part of their life. And it still do not explain anything from ripping their best youngsters away and taking them for yourselves. Even if they are born in NZ you took them born in Samoa and Fiji as well. So its really selfish and you should be helping them as a developing rugby nation rather than plundering them. But I suppose if you guys don't do it the French and English would take them.

I bet you believe that Pacific Islanders and Moari's are the same as well?

Hmm, I think you're the one who is totally ignorant of this issue to be honest...

 

[Darwin]

I bet you believe that Pacific Islanders and Moari's are the same as well?

What are Moari's?

I assume you mean Māori. For your information Māori are Pacific Islanders

 

[smartcooky]

Their heritage states that the children always belong to their village. Most of them are born in NZ but grew up in Samoa or Fiji with a gran or other family member. The only reason the Kiwi's use them is to get other youngster to play for NZ as role models play a big part of their life. And it still do not explain anything from ripping their best youngsters away and taking them for yourselves. Even if they are born in NZ you took them born in Samoa and Fiji as well. So its really selfish and you should be helping them as a developing rugby nation rather than plundering them. But I suppose if you guys don't do it the French and English would take them.

This is complete and utter tripe. You seem to be suggesting that they are born in NZ, go back to Fiji/Samoa/Tonga, grow up and then came back to NZ as adults. Well, I have news for you... this doesn't happen. You obviously have absolutely no idea about this country at all.

NZ born Pacific Islanders are either the children of immigrants, or the children of the children of immigrants. Many Pacific Island kids here are second generation New Zealanders; some are third and some are even fourth generation. Why should they turn out for Fiji/Tonga or Samoa.

I was born in Enfield, Middlesex (in England) and emigrated to NZ in the 1960's; does that mean my children should turn out for England?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I was born in Enfield, Middlesex (in England) and emigrated to NZ in the 1960's; does that mean my children should turn out for England?

....are they any good?

 

[ZeFrenchy]

But I suppose if you guys don't do it the French [...] would take them.

That's totally uncalled for. Of the 1,000 odd players to have played for France, only 8 were not french. (4 have been South African and all of them recent, so maybe you've heard of those). Most of them actually held a french passport, so you could still count them as being as french as any frenchman. And three of them were an Englishman, a Welshman and an American that were part of the first ever France test match. Hardly a "poaching" nation (not saying that others are).

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

luatua played for samoa in one of the previous u20 comps before playing for NZ, same with piutau (for tonga). Maybe there are some other players out there as well.

 

[ratsapprentice]

....are they any good?

:lol:

 

[sifplay]

Hmm, I think you're the one who is totally ignorant of this issue to be honest...

I think you are reverting from the point herePita Ahki - Tonga 2011Ofa Tu'ungafasi - TongaOpe Peleseuma - SamoaCherry picking. If they were first selected for NZ fine. But really when they represent a other country and then to go take a few performers they have is really selfish. And not that is no name of one born in NZ. Look how the SOmaon team have fallen from 2008 till last year in the JWC.

 

[psychic duck]

I think you are reverting from the point herePita Ahki - Tonga 2011Ofa Tu'ungafasi - TongaOpe Peleseuma - SamoaCherry picking. If they were first selected for NZ fine. But really when they represent a other country and then to go take a few performers they have is really selfish. And not that is no name of one born in NZ. Look how the SOmaon team have fallen from 2008 till last year in the JWC.

Conversely, look how the Samoan national team have risen since then thanks to the fact they have started picking half a team worth of NZ born players who have gone through the New Zealand rugby system, have had their development paid for and coached by New Zealand, and now have been persuaded to represent Samoa and are helping them thrive. Exactly the same scenario for Tonga. No coincidence that Samoa have risen since they started to far better in their attempts to get eligible New Zealanders such as Paul Williams, Fotuali'i or Ti'i Paulo for example to turn out for them.

Add to that, a load of Samoan/Tongan born players also take advantage of the New Zealand rugby system and were produced by New Zealand. And the benefits of the Samoan/Tongan/New Zealand relationship far more benefits the Pacific Islanders strength of squad than it does New Zealand. Samoa would not be near the side they are today if they just had players who have come through the Samoan system. They would also have tiny depth in player base, which adding eligible New Zealand boosts significantly.

 

[sifplay]

What are Moari's?

I assume you mean Māori. For your information Māori are Pacific Islanders

So you do not recognise Pacific Islanders as having separate cultural identities from their Kiwi counterparts? The term ‘Pacific Islander’ is a blanket term used in metropolitan countries like New Zealand to identify people from a number of different Pacific Island countries and their New Zealand-born descendants. Its use conceals the historical, political and cultural uniqueness of each Pacific Island society. Mäori is not a Tongan, Samoan, Fijian or Palagi. Classing someone from the pacific island as a Mäori shows a lack of distinction between them.

 

[big ginger 8]

Can a New Zealander confirm this for me plaese.

My understanding is that New Zealand only pick players in their final year for u20s so players who are eligble for island nations take advantadge of it to get experience in the JWC as it doesn't tie them to that nation?

 

[Darwin]

Conversely, look how the Samoan national team have risen since then thanks to the fact they have started picking half a team worth of NZ born players who have gone through the New Zealand rugby system, have had their development paid for and coached by New Zealand, and now have been persuaded to represent Samoa and are helping them thrive. Exactly the same scenario for Tonga. No coincidence that Samoa have risen since they started to far better in their attempts to get eligible New Zealanders such as Paul Williams, Fotuali'i or Ti'i Paulo for example to turn out for them.

Add to that, a load of Samoan/Tongan born players also take advantage of the New Zealand rugby system and were produced by New Zealand. And the benefits of the Samoan/Tongan/New Zealand relationship far more benefits the Pacific Islanders strength of squad than it does New Zealand. Samoa would not be near the side they are today if they just had players who have come through the Samoan system. They would also have tiny depth in player base, which adding eligible New Zealand boosts significantly.

Exactly. What is happening is pretty obvious to anyone who looks into the issue, but unfortunately there are still a number of people out there that are willfully ignorant.

I think you are reverting from the point herePita Ahki - Tonga 2011Ofa Tu'ungafasi - TongaOpe Peleseuma - SamoaCherry picking. If they were first selected for NZ fine. But really when they represent a other country and then to go take a few performers they have is really selfish. And not that is no name of one born in NZ. Look how the SOmaon team have fallen from 2008 till last year in the JWC.

Are you just trolling? Otherwise wow. Just wow.

As has been explained time and time again, these players are New Zealanders. The vast majority were born in New Zealand (Peleseuma is the sole exception I can find). Grew up in New Zealand. All played for New Zealand Secondary Schools. All were involved in the NZ Under 20 training camps. The fact NZ has a policy of only selected players in the their final year of eligibility means these players have the opportunity to turn out for there country of ethnic origin while they are 19, before being selected for the New Zealand side in their final year of eligibility (which was always going to happen regardless of whether they turned out for Tonga/Fiji/Samoa the year before). How you interpret this as being 'cherry picked' is truly bizarre.

So you do not recognise Pacific Islanders as having separate cultural identities from their Kiwi counterparts?

Where did you get that from? I simply stated the Māori are Pacific Islanders. As are Tongans. As are Cook Islanders. As are Uveans. Pacific Islanders simply refers to people from the Pacific Islands.

The term 'Pacific Islander' is a blanket term used in metropolitan countries like New Zealand to identify people from a number of different Pacific Island countries and their New Zealand-born descendants. Its use conceals the historical, political and cultural uniqueness of each Pacific Island society. Mäori is not a Tongan, Samoan, Fijian or Palagi. Classing someone from the pacific island as a Mäori shows a lack of distinction between them.

Great to see you know how to copy and paste: http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/pasifika_education/27772/2

I am quite aware of what the term 'Pacific Islander' means. Are you? As the text you have quoted states, each Pacific Society has its own historical, political and cultural uniqueness. Māori are not Tongans. Tongans are not Fijians. Niueans are not Samoans. They are all Pacific Islanders though.

Can a New Zealander confirm this for me plaese.

My understanding is that New Zealand only pick players in their final year for u20s so players who are eligble for island nations take advantadge of it to get experience in the JWC as it doesn't tie them to that nation?

Spot on. If the rules were changed so that U20 caps tied players to particular nations these sort of players would almost certainly not turn out for Tonga/Fiji/Samoa. This would certainly weaken these sides not only at U20 level, but also at test level, as it would greatly reduce their potential player pool in future.

 

[sifplay]

Exactly. What is happening is pretty obvious to anyone who looks into the issue, but unfortunately there are still a number of people out there that are willfully ignorant.



Are you just trolling? Otherwise wow. Just wow.

As has been explained time and time again, these players are New Zealanders. The vast majority were born in New Zealand (Peleseuma is the sole exception I can find). Grew up in New Zealand. All played for New Zealand Secondary Schools. All were involved in the NZ Under 20 training camps. The fact NZ has a policy of only selected players in the their final year of eligibility means these players have the opportunity to turn out for there country of ethnic origin while they are 19, before being selected for the New Zealand side in their final year of eligibility (which was always going to happen regardless of whether they turned out for Tonga/Fiji/Samoa the year before). How you interpret this as being 'cherry picked' is truly bizarre.



Where did you get that from? I simply stated the Māori are Pacific Islanders. As are Tongans. As are Cook Islanders. As are Uveans. Pacific Islanders simply refers to people from the Pacific Islands.

Spot on. If the rules were changed so that U20 caps tied players to particular nations these sort of players would almost certainly not turn out for Tonga/Fiji/Samoa. This would certainly weaken these sides not only at U20 level, but also at test level, as it would greatly reduce their potential player pool in future.

1. Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc etc are a different country. Do you understand the concept of one representing a country then another nation comes and cherry pick the performers from that nation and take them for themselves and brag about the 4 wins they have in the competition? Do you realize that one cannot suddenly turn another nationality in under a year? Do not confuse ethnicity with nationality.
Imagine a team like England go cherry pick the best youngsters from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and other European nations and put them in their U/20 team. If they were born in Samoa and Tonga or Fiji or whetever and they go school in NZ the moment you decide you are going to represent another country like your country of birth then NZ is just a place where you receive your education. You are not helping the Samoa national team at all. You are destroying them and you can see the countries decline since 2008 when NZ started cherry picking the best out of them. Basically its another Kiwi development team representing another country which the IRB allow. Now there is about 5 guys good in that teams in the tournament all NZ go do again is take them put them the NZ u/20 squad to win it the next year. I really can't understand why you can't see it or just grip the concept at what NZ is actually doing but I guess success at any cost and selfishness leed to success all the years before.

Great to see you know how to copy and paste: http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/pasifika_education/27772/2

I am quite aware of what the term 'Pacific Islander' means. Are you? As the text you have quoted states, each Pacific Society has its own historical, political and cultural uniqueness. Māori are not Tongans. Tongans are not Fijians. Niueans are not Samoans. They are all Pacific Islanders though.

That was supposed to be quoted and no it wan't from that source. Was from a book. If you call the Moari and the Pacific Islander the same then you must be either ignorant or you do not know what goes on around. A Moari is not a Pacific Islander or Pacifics people as your ministry states it. Polynesians yes but classing the Moari and the Pacifics People in the same group you are ignoring their culture. But lets agree to disagree as this is going to turn into something about Hitler later on probably. Most on line discussions do...

Just one question though. And do not take this the bad way. Its not intended that way. If South Africa have a team with only black people in it (African) or a team with only Coloreds in it and we call them the Kwagga's and Protea's how will people in NZ react to it? Will they class it as racist?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

A pacific islander is, literally, someone from a pacific island. In the same way that an earthling is someone from Earth. No one is saying that makes all earthlings the same... I think you've misinterpreted something somewhere along the lines.

The players who play for both the Tongan/Samoan/Fijian U20 teams and the NZ U20 teams are usually NZers who are given an opportunity to play U20 rugby a year early. They are aware they won't be selected for the NZ team (due to policy reasons), and they decide that they're better off playing for another U20 team for one year than not playing at all. NZ don't poach them, they opt in to the PI teams for a year and then revert back to their home nation when they become eligible.

What is it you aren't getting? What do we need to explain further?

 

[nickdnz]

1. Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc etc are a different country. Do you understand the concept of one representing a country then another nation comes and cherry pick the performers from that nation and take them for themselves and brag about the 4 wins they have in the competition? Do you realize that one cannot suddenly turn another nationality in under a year? Do not confuse ethnicity with nationality.
Imagine a team like England go cherry pick the best youngsters from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and other European nations and put them in their U/20 team. If they were born in Samoa and Tonga or Fiji or whetever and they go school in NZ the moment you decide you are going to represent another country like your country of birth then NZ is just a place where you receive your education. You are not helping the Samoa national team at all. You are destroying them and you can see the countries decline since 2008 when NZ started cherry picking the best out of them. Basically its another Kiwi development team representing another country which the IRB allow. Now there is about 5 guys good in that teams in the tournament all NZ go do again is take them put them the NZ u/20 squad to win it the next year. I really can't understand why you can't see it or just grip the concept at what NZ is actually doing but I guess success at any cost and selfishness leed to success all the years before.


That was supposed to be quoted and no it wan't from that source. Was from a book. If you call the Moari and the Pacific Islander the same then you must be either ignorant or you do not know what goes on around. A Moari is not a Pacific Islander or Pacifics people as your ministry states it. Polynesians yes but classing the Moari and the Pacifics People in the same group you are ignoring their culture. But lets agree to disagree as this is going to turn into something about Hitler later on probably. Most on line discussions do...

Just one question though. And do not take this the bad way. Its not intended that way. If South Africa have a team with only black people in it (African) or a team with only Coloreds in it and we call them the Kwagga's and Protea's how will people in NZ react to it? Will they class it as racist?

1. Of course Darwin knows they are different countries. His point was that Māori people are also by definition Pacific Islanders - as they are people whose ethnic origins is the Pacific Islands (New Zealand). You say you are 'ignoring their culture' but continue to define 'them' as Pacific Islanders as one group, despite the many different nations, cultures and ethnicities that describes.

2. You are just wrong about New Zealand 'cherry picking the best'. They are New Zealanders! Most were born in New Zealand! Because of our own selection policy which disallows too young players to play for NZ U20's - some players decide they want exposure to that level earlier and so they go around the system by playing for a country they are eligable. You seem to guess that these players actually consider themselves Samoan/Fijian/Tongan above being a New Zealander, but it shows you have no understanding of our own cultural landscape. I play for Johnsonville. At least half my team is Polynesian. They were born in New Zealand. Went to school in New Zealand. Played all their rugby in New Zealand. Work and go to Universities in New Zealand. Some likely have never been to Samoa/Tonga/Fiji and do not speak the language. Regardless they can if they are good enough, play for Samoa/Tonga/Fiji - and given the oppertunity probably would because it gives them exposure to a level of rugby they otherwise couldn't. There are more Polynesian people who live in New Zealand than Apia, Suva and Nuku'alofa combined! Doesn't mean they don't consider themselves New Zealanders...

If Fiji/Samoa/Tonga were concerned that their best players would just play for New Zealand - then they should not select players from the New Zealand rugby development system...

You claim that Samoa has gone down hill since 2008? Huh? In what aspect? Beating Australia in 2011 and Wales in 2012? Having their highest rankings since the system began? Half of the Samoan team was in fact born in New Zealand, and decided to play for Samoa after not looking to make the All Blacks. You just seem to ignore this. You cling to a claim which benefits your own perception of New Zealand however you don't consider the reality..

 

[gaston le gaff]

Let's not forget guys that there is a RUGBY competion on the horizon, irespective of who plays for who, and where they wre born or which grandma or grand dad gave them their education and their respect for fellow humans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Peat]

1. Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc etc are a different country. Do you understand the concept of one representing a country then another nation comes and cherry pick the performers from that nation and take them for themselves and brag about the 4 wins they have in the competition? Do you realize that one cannot suddenly turn another nationality in under a year? Do not confuse ethnicity with nationality.

Imagine a team like England go cherry pick the best youngsters from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and other European nations and put them in their U/20 team. If they were born in Samoa and Tonga or Fiji or whetever and they go school in NZ the moment you decide you are going to represent another country like your country of birth then NZ is just a place where you receive your education. You are not helping the Samoa national team at all. You are destroying them and you can see the countries decline since 2008 when NZ started cherry picking the best out of them. Basically its another Kiwi development team representing another country which the IRB allow. Now there is about 5 guys good in that teams in the tournament all NZ go do again is take them put them the NZ u/20 squad to win it the next year. I really can't understand why you can't see it or just grip the concept at what NZ is actually doing but I guess success at any cost and selfishness leed to success all the years before.

It is incredibly possible and increasingly common in today's world to consider yourself affiliated in some way with two seperate national identities and be willing to represent either. The England/Ireland/Scotland example does happen - both ways. Kieran Brookes playing Irish u18s then English U20s. James Tyas played English u16s then Scottish U20s. There's a few other examples too - and its not uncommon for players to then pick a different allegiance to the one they held at age grade level.

Also, Samoa's in decline as a rugby nation? Really? That's pretty provably not true. And how many non-NZ born players have NZ played since 2008?

That was supposed to be quoted and no it wan't from that source. Was from a book. If you call the Moari and the Pacific Islander the same then you must be either ignorant or you do not know what goes on around. A Moari is not a Pacific Islander or Pacifics people as your ministry states it. Polynesians yes but classing the Moari and the Pacifics People in the same group you are ignoring their culture. But lets agree to disagree as this is going to turn into something about Hitler later on probably. Most on line discussions do...

I'm not being funny, but guys who presumably live around Maoris, know Maoris, can spell Maori correctly and might even consider themselves as Maori, probably know more about the Maori than you do from reading a book.

 

[Darwin]

I'm not being funny, but guys who presumably live around Maoris, know Maoris, can spell Maori correctly and might even consider themselves as Maori, probably know more about the Maori than you do from reading a book.

You would think that, but I'm enjoying being "educated" on the mater. It is rather amusing :lol:

1. Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc etc are a different country.

Wow. Really? I never knew that. You learn something every day I guess....

Do you understand the concept of one representing a country then another nation comes and cherry pick the performers from that nation and take them for themselves and brag about the 4 wins they have in the competition? Do you realize that one cannot suddenly turn another nationality in under a year? Do not confuse ethnicity with nationality.

Do you understand that this isn't happening? As has been explained to you (ad naseum) this is not the case, but you continue to stick your head in the sand and ignore what people are saying What part of "they are all New Zealanders" don't you understand?

Imagine a team like England go cherry pick the best youngsters from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and other European nations and put them in their U/20 team. If they were born in Samoa and Tonga or Fiji or whetever and they go school in NZ the moment you decide you are going to represent another country like your country of birth then NZ is just a place where you receive your education. You are not helping the Samoa national team at all. You are destroying them and you can see the countries decline since 2008 when NZ started cherry picking the best out of them. Basically its another Kiwi development team representing another country which the IRB allow. Now there is about 5 guys good in that teams in the tournament all NZ go do again is take them put them the NZ u/20 squad to win it the next year. I really can't understand why you can't see it or just grip the concept at what NZ is actually doing but I guess success at any cost and selfishness leed to success all the years before.

No-one can see it because it is happening solely in your mind. In reality this isn't the case, but don't let that stop you

That was supposed to be quoted and no it wan't from that source. Was from a book. If you call the Moari and the Pacific Islander the same then you must be either ignorant or you do not know what goes on around. A Moari is not a Pacific Islander or Pacifics people as your ministry states it. Polynesians yes but classing the Moari and the Pacifics People in the same group you are ignoring their culture. But lets agree to disagree as this is going to turn into something about Hitler later on probably.Most on line discussions do...

Just one question though. And do not take this the bad way. Its not intended that way. If South Africa have a team with only black people in it (African) or a team with only Coloreds in it and we call them the Kwagga's and Protea's how will people in NZ react to it? Will they class it as racist?

You are right. Moari and Pacific Islanders are different. Moari's don't even exist.....

This isn't a debate. If you can't understand what I (and numerous others) are saying I'm not going to bother anymore. I didn't think it was that difficult to understand. Obviously I was wrong.