[2013 EOYT] South Africa

[TRF_stormer2010]

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09/11/2013

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17/11/2013

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23/11/2013

Actually quite a tricky tour for us; Wales can be argued to be the NH's finest even if most of their result have been against fellow NH opposition rather than us down South. Still a quality outfit and they've been desperately close on a number of times against Southern opposition in recent years.

Scotland is a banana skin for SA. Has been now for a while though a lot of that has to do with leveling factors; Scottish weather and more recently a French ref. That said, Scotland have been making a habit of scaring us and even beating us. I do think though that we are too settled while hungry for that to happen this time round. At least I hope so.

France is France and has always been difficult with home advantage a huge factor. In a lot of ways this can be seen as a 'mirror' match-up with both teams having close enough to the same strengths and weaknesses. SA probably a little more consistant than France but France having the home advantage evens it up.

Discuss.​

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

My expectations; SA will be both hungry and optimistic come November and I feel that odd blend of disappointment and optimism will see us travel focused an hungry so I expect a clean sweep though wouldn't be surprised if we fell to either of Wales or France if we go into either even a little overconfident or simply run into a brilliant game from either side as both are capable of the sublime on the day.

 

[psychic duck]

Actually quite a tricky tour for us; Wales can be argued to be the NH's finest even if most of their result have been against fellow NH opposition rather than us down South. Still a quality outfit and they've been desperately close on a number of times against Southern opposition in recent years.

Scotland is a banana skin for SA. Has been now for a while though a lot of that has to do with leveling factors; Scottish weather and more recently a French ref. That said, Scotland have been making a habit of scaring us and even beating us. I do think though that we are too settled while hungry for that to happen this time round. At least I hope so.

France is France and has always been difficult with home advantage a huge factor. In a lot of ways this can be seen as a 'mirror' match-up with both teams having close enough to the same strengths and weaknesses. SA probably a little more consistant than France but France having the home advantage evens it up.

Poor excuse for losing that game.

 

[Big Ewis]

I'm very interest in all three games, and will watch with a lot of attention.

* Wales S.A. can turn out to be a fascinating, close battle. Both teams with powerful scrums, very forward oriented. But also both teams with capable backs, just not all that impressive on attack though for both sides. I have a feeling SA will take this based on recent results rather than the actual match-up on paper.

* Sco SA: again, could be a very interesting match-up. I'd imagine S.A. will run rampant over them, but again the recent outcomes may prove to be a current trend for this one again. Scotland can hope to defend thoroughly and sneak in some tries with some quick backs on that roster, but the scrum and forward play will be at S.A.'s advantage.

* FRA SA: this will be decided by how France plays against the AB. If we beat NZ at home, we'll have performed the French improbable miracle for the Tour and more, and I can't imagine France, again based on history, remaining as focused for 80min against SA. If we lose to NZ, this could be our wake-up call, and we'll play all our strengths against the Boks and win.
But on paper, regardless of form and psyche, we both have strong forwards and a powerful scrum, we both have backs who can do some damage for a given match. The test will be at the breakdown and on defense. I'm pretty hopeful for this one, as it may be a similar to the 2009 test. An all powerful SA team coming to town, and France more than showing up at home. I expect a couple of tries from France here.

Personally, I see SA going either 3-0 or 2-1 losing in Paris.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Poor excuse for losing that game.

Poor conditions levels the playing field somewhat. This I consider fact. I don't mean it as an excuse but it is a factor to keep into consideration.

I'm very interest in all three games, and will watch with a lot of attention.

* Wales S.A. can turn out to be a fascinating, close battle. Both teams with powerful scrums, very forward oriented. But also both teams with capable backs, just not all that impressive on attack though for both sides. I have a feeling SA will take this based on recent results rather than the actual match-up on paper.

* Sco SA: again, could be a very interesting match-up. I'd imagine S.A. will run rampant over them, but again the recent outcomes may prove to be a current trend for this one again. Scotland can hope to defend thoroughly and sneak in some tries with some quick backs on that roster, but the scrum and forward play will be at S.A.'s advantage.

* FRA SA: this will be decided by how France plays against the AB. If we beat NZ at home, we'll have performed the French improbable miracle for the Tour and more, and I can't imagine France, again based on history, remaining as focused for 80min against SA. If we lose to NZ, this could be our wake-up call, and we'll play all our strengths against the Boks and win.
But on paper, regardless of form and psyche, we both have strong forwards and a powerful scrum, we both have backs who can do some damage for a given match. The test will be at the breakdown and on defense. I'm pretty hopeful for this one, as it may be a similar to the 2009 test. An all powerful SA team coming to town, and France more than showing up at home. I expect a couple of tries from France here.

Personally, I see SA going either 3-0 or 2-1 losing in Paris.

I agree in that I think a lot... maybe everything for us (and France and Wales) will hinge on the focus of the teams. It's certainly not a strength for SA as we've seen the AB's just outlast us by knowing what they have to do as a team, trusting their game and just getting the job done. I like to think we are developing that slowly under HM. Wales have the goods but seem to drop results mostly because of what one could only assume is a lack of belief that they can beast the 'big' SH sides? They've been close so many times but find a way to lose (apart from with the B & I Lions so maybe that will do it for them?). France is well, France. SA has also been known to drift mentally in EoYT matches so, yeah, anything can happen IMO. If we can keep up improving that'd be enough for me and would be what I would like to see in addition to bringing in a few players. I also expect the Paris match to be a cracker if both teams turn up for it; certainly our biggest test of the tour if not yours (which I see as an advantage for us LOL).

 

[Big Ewis]

^ yup. Our biggest match is obviously hosting the All-Mighties. And I think this match, considering the French psyche, will be the pivotal point of our EOYT. Like I said, a loss or win, big or small, can entirely change our mindset and de facto physical ability against S.A. We've got Tonga in between, that's going to wear us down and I hope we'll at least be physically ready. Disasters have happened in EOYT...
I hope what happened to the AB last year in Twickenham doesn't happen to S.A. this year in Paris, and I hope for us we don't do smt like AUS 2010.
If we lose so be it, and if S.A. loses so be it; but I want to see two teams playing near the highest level, and look physically fresh.

 

[RWC2011Fan]

South Africa is playing at Stade de France for the first time since the World Cup Final in 2007. Can't believe that was six years ago.

 

[psychic duck]

Poor conditions levels the playing field somewhat. This I consider fact. I don't mean it as an excuse but it is a factor to keep into consideration.

It was much a factor as was Scotland playing in South African conditions last June. Particularly as it wasn't really all that terrible conditions anyway, not at all anywhere near the level of Australia last year. It was merely a mild drizzle at most, which hardly was stopping South Africa playing their traditional boring play. New Zealand have eased past Scotland in far worse conditions before.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It was much a factor as was Scotland playing in South African conditions last June. Particularly as it wasn't really all that terrible conditions anyway, not at all anywhere near the level of Australia last year. It was merely a mild drizzle at most, which hardly was stopping South Africa playing their traditional boring play. New Zealand have eased past Scotland in far worse conditions before.

I merely stated it was a factor and I stick by that. You are ascribing more to a simple statement than was intended for the mere reason of throwing your overbearing personality around but I actually don't even mind that if it amuses you to do so.

^ yup. Our biggest match is obviously hosting the All-Mighties. And I think this match, considering the French psyche, will be the pivotal point of our EOYT. Like I said, a loss or win, big or small, can entirely change our mindset and de facto physical ability against S.A. We've got Tonga in between, that's going to wear us down and I hope we'll at least be physically ready. Disasters have happened in EOYT...
I hope what happened to the AB last year in Twickenham doesn't happen to S.A. this year in Paris, and I hope for us we don't do smt like AUS 2010.
If we lose so be it, and if S.A. loses so be it; but I want to see two teams playing near the highest level, and look physically fresh.

That would be great but the June and November internationals will probably continue to be a case of teams playing each other at opposite ends of their seasons with the RWC the only real time everyone is on the same page. That said there is no reason that our guys shouldn't be able to get up for the last game and yours gel in their third match of the season so IMO there should be a better chance of good rugby than if it were the 1st or 2nd match of the tour.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Weather has always played a part in rugby matches, let's not go ahead and kid ourselves about that fact...

Anyways...

My opinion of this tour:

I hope that HM keeps the continuity going, but with the same breath, I hope he gives a couple of up-and-comers a chance to join the tour.

Here are a few names I'd like to see make the cut:
Lourens Adriaanse
Frans Malherbe (he's fit again)
Pieter Steph Du Toit
Paul Willemse
Cobus Reinach
Raymond Rhule
Cheslin Kolbe
Damian De Allende

those are some faces that has really been impressive at Currie Cup.

Then there some guys I'd like to see get some game time:
Pat Lambie
Piet van Zyl
Coenie Oosthuizen
Jan Serfontein
Siya Kolisi

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Weather has always played a part in rugby matches, let's not go ahead and kid ourselves about that fact...

Anyways...

My opinion of this tour:

I hope that HM keeps the continuity going, but with the same breath, I hope he gives a couple of up-and-comers a chance to join the tour.

Here are a few names I'd like to see make the cut:
Lourens Adriaanse
Frans Malherbe (he's fit again)
Pieter Steph Du Toit
Paul Willemse
Cobus Reinach
Raymond Rhule
Cheslin Kolbe
Damian De Allende

those are some faces that has really been impressive at Currie Cup.

Then there some guys I'd like to see get some game time:
Pat Lambie
Piet van Zyl
Coenie Oosthuizen
Jan Serfontein
Siya Kolisi

Some really exciting options there though some of them I want to see have a season of Super rugby first. Do you know anything about FdP's availability for this tour. Apart from those players you mentioned I have also been very impressed with Derrick Minie though it's gonna hard for anybody to get into the Bok backrow particularly with Arno Botha also waiting in the wings along with the experience of Brussow, Burger and Spies, young Marcel Coetzee and Kolisi who has taken his chances for the most part.

There are probably gonna be the odd NH based player as well that might not usually get a look in simply because they know the terrain and it saves money. I do hope though that we do bring in a few fresh faces and give the bench/fringe player more time rather than bank on the likes of Schalk Brits, Ruan Pienaar, Bakkies Botha and the like.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Some really exciting options there though some of them I want to see have a season of Super rugby first. Do you know anything about FdP's availability for this tour. Apart from those players you mentioned I have also been very impressed with Derrick Minie though it's gonna hard for anybody to get into the Bok backrow particularly with Arno Botha also waiting in the wings along with the experience of Brussow, Burger and Spies, young Marcel Coetzee and Kolisi who has taken his chances for the most part.

There are probably gonna be the odd NH based player as well that might not usually get a look in simply because they know the terrain and it saves money. I do hope though that we do bring in a few fresh faces and give the bench/fringe player more time rather than bank on the likes of Schalk Brits, Ruan Pienaar, Bakkies Botha and the like.

Derrick Minnie???!!! GTFO!!! He's kak and not a family member of Einstein. No!! There are much better guys than him! I'd rather pick Jacques "Vleis" Engelbrecht or Marnus Schoeman.

I doubt that HM will pick more NH based players than he already has... He's going to use this tour to prepare for next year's RC and get a team shaped up for the WC. There will be no use to pick someone like Schalk Brits or Bakkies. He might look at Chilliboy, who has been part of the group this year and is also now NH-bound. Bakkies?? Nah, I think that ship has finally sailed. Especially after giving Franco van der Merwe a cap on Saturday (TBH, I didn't even know he was on the field until the final whistle blew and he shook hands with the other players on the field).

I would like to see what happens to Willem Alberts and Bryan Habana. who both got injured badly in the first half. Any ideas how long they will be out?? This is then the ideal chance to give Siya Kolisi and Jan Serfontein some more playing time. Move JJ to the Wing, and give Jan a chance at centre and swap Willem for Siya. It's after all just 3 games, so there's not much to change from now.

And we shouldn't forget that guys like Arno Botha, Pierre Spies, Jaco Taute and Johan Goosen is almost ready to play again...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Derrick Minnie???!!! GTFO!!! He's kak and not a family member of Einstein. No!! There are much better guys than him! I'd rather pick Jacques "Vleis" Engelbrecht or Marnus Schoeman.

I doubt that HM will pick more NH based players than he already has... He's going to use this tour to prepare for next year's RC and get a team shaped up for the WC. There will be no use to pick someone like Schalk Brits or Bakkies. He might look at Chilliboy, who has been part of the group this year and is also now NH-bound. Bakkies?? Nah, I think that ship has finally sailed. Especially after giving Franco van der Merwe a cap on Saturday (TBH, I didn't even know he was on the field until the final whistle blew and he shook hands with the other players on the field).

I would like to see what happens to Willem Alberts and Bryan Habana. who both got injured badly in the first half. Any ideas how long they will be out?? This is then the ideal chance to give Siya Kolisi and Jan Serfontein some more playing time. Move JJ to the Wing, and give Jan a chance at centre and swap Willem for Siya. It's after all just 3 games, so there's not much to change from now.

And we shouldn't forget that guys like Arno Botha, Pierre Spies, Jaco Taute and Johan Goosen is almost ready to play again...

LOL. I like Minie but, yeah, I can't see him get a call up. Not with the line of better quality players ahead of him and already having been involved with the Bokke. For smaller guy (relatively speaking of course) Minie carries the ball very well you have to admit though. But even me as a fan wouldn't want him included ahead of Alberts, Louw, Vermeulen, Burger, Labuschagne, Botha, Kolisi or Brussow. I would have him ahead of Coetzee and Spies though... but that is irrelevant so you needn't worry.

Franco van der Merwe was a big mistake if you ask me. A wasted cap. The other F vd Merwe and Juandre Kruger aren't great either; not the type of player you want on the field in a pressure game. Same with Kirchner and Ruan Pienaar IMO and to a lesser extent I still include Morne Steyn in that category. We have better though some of them might be injured. If Spies pulls on a Bok jersey again, well I wouldn't be pleased. JdP needs to be dropped as well. Let him get his **** right in SR if he can and if he does then fine but he has been a massive liability in general play and not dominant enough in the scrum to warrant inclusion for that alone.


So what I'd like to see is a squad of.. I suppose I'll have to check if some of the guys I'd want to go along would be fit and available.. but for my part I want to see us look for replacements or even only competition for:

TH du Plessis
LK Flip and Franco van der Merwe as well as Juandre Kruger
SH anyone capable of deputizing for FdP with clean and quick service.. no-one currently inspires me TBH
FH Morne Steyn... we have Goosen but the question is will we use him and then there is Lambie who has not taken his few chances at 10 but I'd like to see him get a chance with the type of ball that Steyn has had recently.
FB Kirchner- probably either of Taute or Le Roux with Ludik going abroad but Le Roux really has to look at his defense. Marnitz Boshoff has been decent but I wouldn't consider him before a good year in SR.
On the wing situation between Habana, Le Roux and JPP we have good wingers but there is an asterisk next to each name; how available are Habana and JPP going to be and will we need Le Roux at 15? The rest don't inspire at all IMO and we'd be better served in getting one of our provincial centers on one of the wings IMO (I'm thinking of JJ or De Allende) or reconsider Aplon but a back three of Habana, Aplon, Le Roux.... lightest in the world?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

http://www.irb.com/mm/Document/News...ovemberInternationalsMOAppointmentsKBCORR.pdf






Will be interesting. I just hope for consistent ref performances. I thought Nigel Owens was excellent over the weekend; you hardly noticed him yet he still pinged the infringements effectively enough. If these refs above have half as competent a game as Saturday I might even enjoy these tests.

 

Last edited: Oct 8, 2013

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psychic duck

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• Oct 8, 2013

• #15

I merely stated it was a factor and I stick by that. You are ascribing more to a simple statement than was intended for the mere reason of throwing your overbearing personality around but I actually don't even mind that if it amuses you to do so.

You're using it as an excuse. South Africa were arrogant in that match. It wasn't even a typical Scotland fluke 20% possession match, Scotland had more possession in the game. The drizzle was barely a factor in the game, especially considering that SA were playing a one paced kicking game with Steyn at 10. South Africa should beat Scotland in any conditions, SA played bad. Them being crap was also more to do with the struggle in the match last June than Poite as well.

 

Last edited: Oct 8, 2013

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TRF_stormer2010

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• Oct 8, 2013

• #16

You're using it as an excuse. South Africa were arrogant in that match. It wasn't even a typical Scotland fluke 20% possession match, Scotland had more possession in the game. The drizzle was barely a factor in the game, especially considering that SA were playing a one paced kicking game with Steyn at 10. South Africa should beat Scotland in any conditions, SA played bad. Them being crap was also more to do with the struggle in the match last June than Poite as well.

SA did play bad, yes. I would call that a factor as well. Whether due to complacency, rotation, a new squad, bad weather, fatigue, lack of focus etc etc. You'll call them all excuses and I'll call them all factors in the loss when I try to dissect for myself what went wrong and why. I agree that SA should be beating Scotland without much trouble but the results seem to suggest otherwise which is why I call it a banana peel. BUT that said I expect us to win comfortably this year even if the weather should be bad because some of the other excuses are out of the way; I refer to a greater unity in our sqaud that wasn;t there earlier. I see we have another French ref though LOL. And I doubt we'll be complacent again.

I don't understand what exactly you mean with the highlighted bit there. So we are just crap; full stop? The struggle? You mean the struggle at the rucks? Where Scotland were entering from the side, going off their feet, hands in the ruck and not releasing or rolling away and getting away with it while we weren't savvy enough to try the same? This June or last year June? Sorry, I think it is a case of English being both of our's 2nd language.

 

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Gena_ZA

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• #17

Can only give my opinion when I see our touring squad.
Will this be the time that HM introduces new players to take the place of the ones arguably not going to the World Cup?
- Fullback
- Flyhalf or at least backup
- no 5
- backup to 6
- new wing

I would certainly hope so.

 

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Gena_ZA

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• #18

You're using it as an excuse. South Africa were arrogant in that match. It wasn't even a typical Scotland fluke 20% possession match, Scotland had more possession in the game. The drizzle was barely a factor in the game, especially considering that SA were playing a one paced kicking game with Steyn at 10. South Africa should beat Scotland in any conditions, SA played bad. Them being crap was also more to do with the struggle in the match last June than Poite as well.

We apologize for playing bad against Scotland historically. Will will attempt to play them of the park in November.
Please stand by

 

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TRF_heineken

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• #19

Can only give my opinion when I see our touring squad.
Will this be the time that HM introduces new players to take the place of the ones arguably not going to the World Cup?
- Fullback
- Flyhalf or at least backup
- no 5
- backup to 6
- new wing

I would certainly hope so.

I hope so too!!

I see the Griquas are resting Willie Le Roux for this last week of Currie Cup games.

Who will be picked though is a very good question... It's rather quiet on the HM front

We apologize for playing bad against Scotland historically. Will will attempt to play them of the park in November.
Please stand by

Yes. We are sorry that we couldn't be better prepared in Sunny South Africa for the muddy, crappy soggy pitches of Scotland. The only players who could possibly have been prepared for those type of conditions are perhaps the WP/Stormers, and then it's about a few weeks in the year...

 

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TRF_stormer2010

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• Oct 9, 2013

• #20

Can only give my opinion when I see our touring squad.
Will this be the time that HM introduces new players to take the place of the ones arguably not going to the World Cup?
- Fullback
- Flyhalf or at least backup
- no 5
- backup to 6
- new wing

I would certainly hope so.

I hope so too. I'd add the conundrum at 9 to your list as well unless we are gonna get FdP back full time anytime soon. But even then who will be the back-up. I don't think anyone has put their hands up yet.

I hope so too!!

Yes. We are sorry that we couldn't be better prepared in Sunny South Africa for the muddy, crappy soggy pitches of Scotland. The only players who could possibly have been prepared for those type of conditions are perhaps the WP/Stormers, and then it's about a few weeks in the year...

It's been worse weather than usual in the Cape this winter. But ironically the WP Bok players missed out on the worst of it and its pretty decent now.

 

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[psychic duck]

I merely stated it was a factor and I stick by that. You are ascribing more to a simple statement than was intended for the mere reason of throwing your overbearing personality around but I actually don't even mind that if it amuses you to do so.

You're using it as an excuse. South Africa were arrogant in that match. It wasn't even a typical Scotland fluke 20% possession match, Scotland had more possession in the game. The drizzle was barely a factor in the game, especially considering that SA were playing a one paced kicking game with Steyn at 10. South Africa should beat Scotland in any conditions, SA played bad. Them being crap was also more to do with the struggle in the match last June than Poite as well.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

You're using it as an excuse. South Africa were arrogant in that match. It wasn't even a typical Scotland fluke 20% possession match, Scotland had more possession in the game. The drizzle was barely a factor in the game, especially considering that SA were playing a one paced kicking game with Steyn at 10. South Africa should beat Scotland in any conditions, SA played bad. Them being crap was also more to do with the struggle in the match last June than Poite as well.

SA did play bad, yes. I would call that a factor as well. Whether due to complacency, rotation, a new squad, bad weather, fatigue, lack of focus etc etc. You'll call them all excuses and I'll call them all factors in the loss when I try to dissect for myself what went wrong and why. I agree that SA should be beating Scotland without much trouble but the results seem to suggest otherwise which is why I call it a banana peel. BUT that said I expect us to win comfortably this year even if the weather should be bad because some of the other excuses are out of the way; I refer to a greater unity in our sqaud that wasn;t there earlier. I see we have another French ref though LOL. And I doubt we'll be complacent again.

I don't understand what exactly you mean with the highlighted bit there. So we are just crap; full stop? The struggle? You mean the struggle at the rucks? Where Scotland were entering from the side, going off their feet, hands in the ruck and not releasing or rolling away and getting away with it while we weren't savvy enough to try the same? This June or last year June? Sorry, I think it is a case of English being both of our's 2nd language.

 

[Gena_ZA]

Can only give my opinion when I see our touring squad.
Will this be the time that HM introduces new players to take the place of the ones arguably not going to the World Cup?
- Fullback
- Flyhalf or at least backup
- no 5
- backup to 6
- new wing

I would certainly hope so.

 

[Gena_ZA]

You're using it as an excuse. South Africa were arrogant in that match. It wasn't even a typical Scotland fluke 20% possession match, Scotland had more possession in the game. The drizzle was barely a factor in the game, especially considering that SA were playing a one paced kicking game with Steyn at 10. South Africa should beat Scotland in any conditions, SA played bad. Them being crap was also more to do with the struggle in the match last June than Poite as well.

We apologize for playing bad against Scotland historically. Will will attempt to play them of the park in November.
Please stand by

 

[TRF_heineken]

Can only give my opinion when I see our touring squad.
Will this be the time that HM introduces new players to take the place of the ones arguably not going to the World Cup?
- Fullback
- Flyhalf or at least backup
- no 5
- backup to 6
- new wing

I would certainly hope so.

I hope so too!!

I see the Griquas are resting Willie Le Roux for this last week of Currie Cup games.

Who will be picked though is a very good question... It's rather quiet on the HM front

We apologize for playing bad against Scotland historically. Will will attempt to play them of the park in November.
Please stand by

Yes. We are sorry that we couldn't be better prepared in Sunny South Africa for the muddy, crappy soggy pitches of Scotland. The only players who could possibly have been prepared for those type of conditions are perhaps the WP/Stormers, and then it's about a few weeks in the year...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Can only give my opinion when I see our touring squad.
Will this be the time that HM introduces new players to take the place of the ones arguably not going to the World Cup?
- Fullback
- Flyhalf or at least backup
- no 5
- backup to 6
- new wing

I would certainly hope so.

I hope so too. I'd add the conundrum at 9 to your list as well unless we are gonna get FdP back full time anytime soon. But even then who will be the back-up. I don't think anyone has put their hands up yet.

I hope so too!!

Yes. We are sorry that we couldn't be better prepared in Sunny South Africa for the muddy, crappy soggy pitches of Scotland. The only players who could possibly have been prepared for those type of conditions are perhaps the WP/Stormers, and then it's about a few weeks in the year...

It's been worse weather than usual in the Cape this winter. But ironically the WP Bok players missed out on the worst of it and its pretty decent now.