[2013 EOYT] South Africa

[TRF_Ezequiel]

He played in Japan for 6 months. That's it. I think we can expect the same from him that he has done in the past.

 

[Gena_ZA]

[h=3]Springbok squad:[/h] Fullbacks:

• Zane Kirchner Fullback 28 caps 25 points 29 years
• Gio Aplon Fullback/Wing 17 caps 25 points 31 years
• Willie le Roux Fullback/Wing 9 caps 15 points 24 years

Wings & Centres:

• JP Pietersen Wing 48 caps 70points 27 years
• Bryan Habana Wing 92 caps 265 points 30 years
• JJ Engelbrecht Centre/Wing 10 caps 20 points 24 years
• Jaque Fourie Centre 69 caps 160 points 32 years
• Jean de Villiers (captain) Centre 93 caps 120 points 32 years
• Jan Serfontein Centre 9 caps 5 points 20 years

Flyhalves:

• Morné Steyn Flyhalf 51 caps 618 points 29 years
• Johan Goosen Flyhalf 4 caps 8 points 21 years
• Pat Lambie Flyhalf/Fullback 29 caps 55 points 23 years

Scrumhalves:

• Fourie du Preez Scrumhalf 65 caps 70 points 31 years
• Ruan Pienaar Scrumhalf 71 caps 130 points 29 years
• Louis Schreuder Scrumhalf 0 caps 0 points 23 years

Looseforwards:

• Duane Vermeulen No 8 13 caps 5 points 27 years
• Siya Kolisi Loose forward 8 caps 0 points 22 years
• Francois Louw Loose forward 25 caps 25 points 28 years
• Willem Alberts Loose forward 27 caps 30 points 28 years
• Marcell Coetzee Loose forward 14 caps 5 points 22 years

Locks:

• Pieter-Steph du Toit Lock 0 caps 0 points 21 years
• Eben Etzebeth Lock 20 caps 0 points 22 years
• Flip van der Merwe Lock 31 caps 5 points 28 years
• Bakkies Botha Lock 76 caps 35 points 34 years

Props:

• Jannie du Plessis Prop 51 caps 5 points 30 years
• Frans Malherbe Prop 0 caps 0 points 22 years
• Coenie Oosthuizen Prop 11 caps 5 points 24 years
• Gurthrö Steenkamp Prop 46 caps 30 points 32 years
• Tendai Mtawarira Prop 50 caps 10 points 28 years

Hookers:

• Bismarck du Plessis Hooker 54 caps 40 points 29 years
• Adriaan Strauss Hooker 30 caps 25 points 27 years
• Scarra Ntubeni Hooker 0 caps 0 points 22 years

 

[Draggs]

Jannie deserves a rest. There are no other tight heads though.
This squad is a step backwards. Botha is past it and Fourier has been in the wilderness for two years. Big mistake.
Scarra ugh, no thanks. Kyle Cooper has been in good form, I'd like to see him soon.
Aplon and Kirchner over say Marais? Yes he makes mistakes but he is developing very well. Goosen who has played not even a full match?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't know, Draggs. A lot depends on the actual matchday 22s that we'll be seeing. If its an 'experience'-at-all-costs approach then I agree unresevedly- it would be a step backwards. But if we see, from out of that squad, Lambie starting at 10 with Goosen on the bench, PSdT starting alongside Etzbeth and Willie le Roux at 15 (could have been other betteroptions looking forward but oh, well) with JPP and Habana on the wings.. well, if we see that at any stage I'd call it a definate step forward. That is assuming the 'older' guys that aren't near any form are mainly there in a mentoring/back up capacity (big assumption I know).

I mean if you look back we've had much worse teams very recently than what you can push onto the field with this suqad; Basson! I'd love to see (and would see as a big step forward);

1 Mtawarira (Steenkamp)
2 BdP (16 Strauss)
3 Oosthuizen (17 Malherbe - don't look past this guy, Draggs!) (I'd say there are other THs- they've just not had any opporunity with JdP being a crutch and 3/4 off them have f**ed of to Europe.Time to buck the trend with the doc at an all time form low)
4 Etzebeth (18 Botha)
5 PSdT
6 Louw
7 Alberts (19 Kolisi)
8 Vermeulen
9 FdP (20 Doesn't matter- both Pieaar and Schreuder are pretty useless so probably Pienaar simply because capping Schreuder won't help looking forward whereas continuing with Pienaar would simply be par for the course)
10 Lambie (21 Goosen)
11 Habana
12 JdV
13 Fourie
14 JPP
15 Le Roux (... Kirchner/Aplon whatever; we missed a trick here IMO)

I mean c'mon, while it could've been better we havn't had as good a 23 post 2009 as this would be; I think HM is doing a fine job even if I'd go for pushing the development at a faster pace.

 

[Gena_ZA]

Your observations tends to lean to much towards your team Drags, objectivity is what is needed and Heyneke brings just that

95% of that squad is good, there is and will always be up for debate
Schroeder vs Sharks no 9's - Sharkies win but Heyneke sees hi as backup at 10 as well
Scara is a political move but he is not bad at all
Aplon had a way better season that Marais - give him time -> with that approach Kolbe should be in the side, so de Allende, so on and so on
But Frans Steyn should have been chosen, a good time to say goodbye to Zane
Glad Schalk not there, he is far from ready
In Goosen he clearly sees our future

 

[Draggs]

I like my Sharks, yeah, but I don't think it negates some points.
No gripes with Malherbe. Aplon lacks the physicality, I'd rather see de Allende. Aplon as a wing only
Goosen keeps getting crocked, he needs some time to mature and not at test level.

Fourie and Bakkies are odd calls. Bakkies hasn't stood out in Toulon, de Jäger would be a better pick. De Allende over Fourie I'd say. It's tough to judge Jaque because he is over out of the limelight.

 

[psychic duck]

I like my Sharks, yeah, but I don't think it negates some points.
No gripes with Malherbe. Aplon lacks the physicality, I'd rather see de Allende. Aplon as a wing only
Goosen keeps getting crocked, he needs some time to mature and not at test level.

Fourie and Bakkies are odd calls. Bakkies hasn't stood out in Toulon, de Jäger would be a better pick. De Allende over Fourie I'd say. It's tough to judge Jaque because he is over out of the limelight.

Sorry Draggs but I don't agree at all with this.

Fourie is by far the best Bok #13 of the new Millennium, he's also still only 30 years old, and despite admittedly not seeing him play much in Japan of late he was named in the Dream Team of the season in both seasons and has scored 24 tries in 24 games. Whilst rugby in Japan is hard to judge, if he's fit and healthy then it's certainly not an "odd" call to put a player of his quality in the squad, especially given that it's not SA's strongest one.

As for Bakkies, whilst he has been replaced well by Etzebeth, and there may be doubts as to whether he is required in a strong position. But to say he hasn't stood out in Toulon isn't fair, he was acknowledged as one of the best locks of the season for Toulon, and indeed Rugbyrama named him as the best.

 

[Draggs]

Fourie is indeed. That's why I said I can't really judge Jaque, I haven't seen him in two years. I would like to see more from Jordaan, Englebrecht, Sadie, Howard down the line. Is he 30? I'd swear he was older. He has been around for a long time which doesn't help the perception.
Bakkies has been good, but no more so than a few of the domestic locks. I don't mind him if it is more as a mentor or stop gap, but 2015 might be a long stretch. Then again, Thorn held out into his mid 30s. I don't want it to be Eben and Bakkies. Etzebeth and du Toit should start, regardless of their young age. Botha off he bench would add some grunt, along with say Alberts.

 

[psychic duck]

Fourie is indeed. That's why I said I can't really judge Jaque, I haven't seen him in two years. I would like to see more from Jordaan, Englebrecht, Sadie, Howard down the line. Is he 30? I'd swear he was older. He has been around for a long time which doesn't help the perception.
Bakkies has been good, but no more so than a few of the domestic locks. I don't mind him if it is more as a mentor or stop gap, but 2015 might be a long stretch. Then again, Thorn held out into his mid 30s. I don't want it to be Eben and Bakkies. Etzebeth and du Toit should start, regardless of their young age. Botha off he bench would add some grunt, along with say Alberts.

From the last two Rugby World Cup winners alone. Brad Thorn and Os du Randt are evidence that players shouldn't be ditched on getting the wrong side of 30 for the sake of it. Especially in the tight 5 and with Bakkies style of play I don't think age is an issue and he can be an option for the next RWC, however I do understand the concern of picking overseas players. Only the really good ones are worth the bother, so I suggest that SA implement some sort of limit to it, say 2/3 non SA based players for the 23 for example - Steenkamp, du Preez and Fourie.

 

[Big Ewis]

he was acknowledged as one of the best locks of the season for Toulon, and indeed Rugbyrama named him as the best.

(taking a little break from the usual quarrels, if you may for just one brief moment...):
do you read French, psychic ?

 

[TRF_heineken]

So it's clear that HM wants to broaden the pool a bit more, and see if some fringe players could make the cut in his team.

I'm just wondering what type of match 23 team would look like?

1. Beast
2. Bismarck
3. Jannie Du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Bakkies Botha
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen

9. FdP
10. Morne Steyn
11. Bryan Habana
12. JDV
13. Jaque Fourie
14. JPP
15. Willie Le Roux

16. Adriaan Strauss
17. Guthro Steenkamp
18. Coenie Oosthuizen
19. PSDT
20. Siya Kolisi
21. Ruan Pienaar
22. Pat Lambie
23. Johan Goosen

Am I the only one thinking... Man I shouldn't be at the bottom of the ruck with this forward pack...

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

So it's clear that HM wants to broaden the pool a bit more, and see if some fringe players could make the cut in his team.

I'm just wondering what type of match 23 team would look like?

1. Beast
2. Bismarck
3. Jannie Du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Bakkies Botha
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen

9. FdP
10. Morne Steyn
11. Bryan Habana
12. JDV
13. Jaque Fourie
14. JPP
15. Willie Le Roux

16. Adriaan Strauss
17. Guthro Steenkamp
18. Coenie Oosthuizen
19. PSDT
20. Siya Kolisi
21. Ruan Pienaar
22. Pat Lambie
23. Johan Goosen

Am I the only one thinking... Man I shouldn't be at the bottom of the ruck with this forward pack...

Is HM preparing for the 2015 World Cup or the 2011 World Cup...?

But seriously, I wouldn't have Botha and Etzebeth playing together if I could help it.

Who's the back up to Louw in the squad?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Is HM preparing for the 2015 World Cup or the 2011 World Cup...?

But seriously, I wouldn't have Botha and Etzebeth playing together if I could help it.

Who's the back up to Louw in the squad?

Why does it bother people so much that HM is picking some of the older guys??

Bakkies Botha has been on top of his game and is now one of the top locks in the NH.
Fourie Du Preez has already shown that he's still one of the best scrumhalves in the world.
Jaque Fourie isn't that old, and has always been a star in the bok jersey.

Any coach would tell you that mixing youth with experience is key. looks like some people think that this much experience is a bad thing??

Kolisi would be Flouw's back-up I'd imagine. But this is once again a topic that people should stop asking. with the current setup, the Boks don't need a back-up to Louw in the fetcher role. Duane Vermeulen, Bismarck Du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth and Coenie Oosthuizen has proven they can steal just as many balls as Flouw.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Why does it bother people so much that HM is picking some of the older guys??

Bakkies Botha has been on top of his game and is now one of the top locks in the NH.
Fourie Du Preez has already shown that he's still one of the best scrumhalves in the world.
Jaque Fourie isn't that old, and has always been a star in the bok jersey.

Any coach would tell you that mixing youth with experience is key. looks like some people think that this much experience is a bad thing??

Kolisi would be Flouw's back-up I'd imagine. But this is once again a topic that people should stop asking. with the current setup, the Boks don't need a back-up to Louw in the fetcher role. Duane Vermeulen, Bismarck Du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth and Coenie Oosthuizen has proven they can steal just as many balls as Flouw.

HM is welcome to pick those guys, but all it does is tell local players that they're better off heading overseas to earn megabucks than stick around in South Africa, because either way you can be selected for the Boks. Maybe if it were a short term solution, or South Africa didn't have any upcoming players, it would be a bit different. But when you have guys like PDST and Serfontein I really don't see the need for guys like Botha and Fourie. It's also a bit worrying, surely, that it's been two years since the last World Cup and there isn't a halfback since then who's looked the goods. Hougaard was touted as the next big thing after FdP but has never really looked up to standard for an international halfback, and has been curtailed by injury. Meanwhile, you've had two new guys brought in this year who have now both been cast aside in favour of anothe new halfback. Not to mention a serial underperformer in Ruan Pienaar is being selected week in and week out for the squad too. How are these young halfbacks going to improve if they aren't getting any game time? South Africa is the second strongest rugby nation in the world, behind NZ, and they have a very similar set up, I just don't get why you'd look overseas when you can promote and develop local players.

Just my two cents.

 

[TRF_heineken]

HM is welcome to pick those guys, but all it does is tell local players that they're better off heading overseas to earn megabucks than stick around in South Africa, because either way you can be selected for the Boks. Maybe if it were a short term solution, or South Africa didn't have any upcoming players, it would be a bit different. But when you have guys like PDST and Serfontein I really don't see the need for guys like Botha and Fourie. It's also a bit worrying, surely, that it's been two years since the last World Cup and there isn't a halfback since then who's looked the goods. Hougaard was touted as the next big thing after FdP but has never really looked up to standard for an international halfback, and has been curtailed by injury. Meanwhile, you've had two new guys brought in this year who have now both been cast aside in favour of anothe new halfback. Not to mention a serial underperformer in Ruan Pienaar is being selected week in and week out for the squad too. How are these young halfbacks going to improve if they aren't getting any game time? South Africa is the second strongest rugby nation in the world, behind NZ, and they have a very similar set up, I just don't get why you'd look overseas when you can promote and develop local players.

Just my two cents.

Scarra Ntubeni, Louis Schreuder, PSDT and Frans Malherbe are all newcomers on this tour. All of them are local players. And During the June Internationals, Jan Serfontein, Willie Le Roux, Siya Kolisi, Arno Botha and Piet van Zyl as well as Jano Vermaak made their debuts -All Local players.
Last Year - JJ Engelbrecht, Johan Goosen, Keegan Daniel, Tiaan Liebenberg, Eben Etzebeth, Marcel Coetzee - All Local Players.

Picking 3 players that are playing abroad is hardly a thing to be worried about. and as for Morne Steyn, Bryan Habana, Zane Kirchner and Juandre Kruger (who isn't even picked now) they were local players from the beginning of the year, and only moved now in the middle of the RC.

I think it's a brilliant move picking Bakkies and Jaque, BECAUSE of Jan Serfontein and PSDT in the Squad. Jan and PSDT need mentors in their position to learn vital info and to gain as much experience. Jan and PSDT are both under 22 years old, so this could work tremendously well

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Scarra Ntubeni, Louis Schreuder, PSDT and Frans Malherbe are all newcomers on this tour. All of them are local players. And During the June Internationals, Jan Serfontein, Willie Le Roux, Siya Kolisi, Arno Botha and Piet van Zyl as well as Jano Vermaak made their debuts -All Local players.
Last Year - JJ Engelbrecht, Johan Goosen, Keegan Daniel, Tiaan Liebenberg, Eben Etzebeth, Marcel Coetzee - All Local Players.

Picking 3 players that are playing abroad is hardly a thing to be worried about. and as for Morne Steyn, Bryan Habana, Zane Kirchner and Juandre Kruger (who isn't even picked now) they were local players from the beginning of the year, and only moved now in the middle of the RC.

I think it's a brilliant move picking Bakkies and Jaque, BECAUSE of Jan Serfontein and PSDT in the Squad. Jan and PSDT need mentors in their position to learn vital info and to gain as much experience. Jan and PSDT are both under 22 years old, so this could work tremendously well

Just because Steyn etc. weren't playing abroad before the season started that doesn't mean they aren't now.

How much advice can an older centre really give to a young centre? It's not the most technical of positions, and beyond the obvious I can't see what pieces of info Serfontein can gain from having Fourie in the squad. With JdV there already, Fourie seems redundant anyway. Regardless, would you really want Botha offloading his 'advice' to young players? Matfield would be another story, though he's obviously not playing any more. If they're there in mentoring roles then it's likely they wouldn't be playing (or starting) matches anyway, but you've got them both down in the starting 23.

Again though, with regards to the halfbacks: Are you guys a bit worried you haven't really developed anyone in the position yet? Who are the starting halfbacks likely to be in the 2014 Super Rugby season?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Just because Steyn etc. weren't playing abroad before the season started that doesn't mean they aren't now.

How much advice can an older centre really give to a young centre? It's not the most technical of positions, and beyond the obvious I can't see what pieces of info Serfontein can gain from having Fourie in the squad. With JdV there already, Fourie seems redundant anyway. Regardless, would you really want Botha offloading his 'advice' to young players? Matfield would be another story, though he's obviously not playing any more. If they're there in mentoring roles then it's likely they wouldn't be playing (or starting) matches anyway, but you've got them both down in the starting 23.

Again though, with regards to the halfbacks: Are you guys a bit worried you haven't really developed anyone in the position yet? Who are the starting halfbacks likely to be in the 2014 Super Rugby season?

Those players were rewarded for a great season. Why should they now just not be picked because they now went North?? Remember that the World Cup in 2015 is in the NH! getting used to the conditions can only be beneficial.

Jaque Fourie has always been a brilliant defender. and it was him and not JDV that was the defensive organiser in the past. He is of great value.

Halfbacks for next year:
Bulls - Piet van Zyl and Francois Hougaard
Cheetahs - Sarel Pretorius
Lions - Guy Cronje and Michael Bondesio
Sharks - Cobus Reinach and Charl Mcleod
Stormers - Louis Schreuder and Nic Groom

All of these guys have played Super Rugby before. and there are a lot of youngsters that are coming through too... This is one position where have a lot of talent.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

There are basically 3 major issues in SA Rugby. 1 is the quota system, 2 is the Bok selection criteria and 3 is the set-up of the franchise system. The 3 issues are in a way cause and effect.

South Africa is a country where race, and racial preference, is an issue that won't be resolved any time soon. Instead, the government pushes quota systems on several sectors of society. This includes Vodacom Cup teams having to select a certain number of black players regardless of form, talent or capabilities. In a few years, this will be implemented in the Currie Cup and maybe even Super Rugby or the Bok squad.

This brings me to issue no. 2, the Bok selection criteria. SARU should grow some balls and take a long, hard look at New Zealand and, to a lesser extent, Australia. They only select local-based players. When the 2011 World Cup ended, Meyer selected players who are active overseas and this would be a temporary thing, since we needed to perform to stay 2nd on the IRB ranking. Now, 2 years later, the number of overseas players has risen to 10. If SARU keeps selecting overseas players, they have nothing left to keep players in SA. This will, in the long run, hurt SA domestic rugby. It's not like we don't have other options. Morne Steyn can be replaced by Lambie, Catrakilis and Goosen, Habana can ben replaced by Mvovo or Aplon. We have the talent and we need to explore the options. Give players a reason to stay. Now, players like Louw, Fourie, Bakkies and du Preez are selected while they show no interest in joining one of the SA teams. Even Zane Kirchner is still in the squad. Come on!

The last issue is maybe the biggest one. We have so many South African players who can be of value to SA rugby, but because we don't have franchise teams (well, officially we do, but you know where I'm going with this) WP locks, Sharks backrow players and Bulls fly-halves have nothing to fight for. They won't go to smaller unions since there is no chance in hell they will get selected for the franchise. Teams like Boland, Valke, Border, Griffons and even the newly-promoted Pumas, struggle to build a team since there is no centralized distribution. If you look at NZ, you see the players being divided among teams and the franchises being completely different entities in regards to the unions they draw their players from. This of course goes way back to the 90's where SARU decided to just have the 4 biggest teams to be the franchises with a combined Free State-Transvaal team known as the Cats. Lately, we've even seen players from the Pumas, Griquas and Boland move overseas since there is no way to develop. If the top players are divided more equally, it could have a positive effect on the talented youngsters at the smaller unions and it might generate a wider talent pool. The big 5 though (WP, Sharks, Bulls, Lions and Cheetahs unions) will never vote positive on this if it goes through the normal voting channel so I don't see any change in this. However, I feel this would benefit SA rugby as a whole.

 

[TRF_heineken]

There are basically 3 major issues in SA Rugby. 1 is the quota system, 2 is the Bok selection criteria and 3 is the set-up of the franchise system. The 3 issues are in a way cause and effect.

South Africa is a country where race, and racial preference, is an issue that won't be resolved any time soon. Instead, the government pushes quota systems on several sectors of society. This includes Vodacom Cup teams having to select a certain number of black players regardless of form, talent or capabilities. In a few years, this will be implemented in the Currie Cup and maybe even Super Rugby or the Bok squad.

This brings me to issue no. 2, the Bok selection criteria. SARU should grow some balls and take a long, hard look at New Zealand and, to a lesser extent, Australia. They only select local-based players. When the 2011 World Cup ended, Meyer selected players who are active overseas and this would be a temporary thing, since we needed to perform to stay 2nd on the IRB ranking. Now, 2 years later, the number of overseas players has risen to 10. If SARU keeps selecting overseas players, they have nothing left to keep players in SA. This will, in the long run, hurt SA domestic rugby. It's not like we don't have other options. Morne Steyn can be replaced by Lambie, Catrakilis and Goosen, Habana can ben replaced by Mvovo or Aplon. We have the talent and we need to explore the options. Give players a reason to stay. Now, players like Louw, Fourie, Bakkies and du Preez are selected while they show no interest in joining one of the SA teams. Even Zane Kirchner is still in the squad. Come on!

The last issue is maybe the biggest one. We have so many South African players who can be of value to SA rugby, but because we don't have franchise teams (well, officially we do, but you know where I'm going with this) WP locks, Sharks backrow players and Bulls fly-halves have nothing to fight for. They won't go to smaller unions since there is no chance in hell they will get selected for the franchise. Teams like Boland, Valke, Border, Griffons and even the newly-promoted Pumas, struggle to build a team since there is no centralized distribution. If you look at NZ, you see the players being divided among teams and the franchises being completely different entities in regards to the unions they draw their players from. This of course goes way back to the 90's where SARU decided to just have the 4 biggest teams to be the franchises with a combined Free State-Transvaal team known as the Cats. Lately, we've even seen players from the Pumas, Griquas and Boland move overseas since there is no way to develop. If the top players are divided more equally, it could have a positive effect on the talented youngsters at the smaller unions and it might generate a wider talent pool. The big 5 though (WP, Sharks, Bulls, Lions and Cheetahs unions) will never vote positive on this if it goes through the normal voting channel so I don't see any change in this. However, I feel this would benefit SA rugby as a whole.

Double post much? lol...

I see Mr. De Klerk had an influence for the better with you.

South African Sport, will remain a conundrum. Because of our history, no other nation in world are in the same boat as us. We are the 2nd best rugby nation in the world. We have olympic gold medal athletes. We have a transvestite olympic athlete. We are the only African country to host a Soccer World Cup. We are one of the few nations that have hosted a Rugby, Cricket and Soccer World cup in the proffessional era. the list goes on and on.

the point is, we have issues, a lot more issues than any other nation. And HM, has a very tough job, and these outside issues, makes this job much more stressful than it should be.

He has a balancing act which is being influenced by his bosses, the government and basically every fan in SA.

he has to keep us competitive, while blooding some youngsters, while taking into consideration the colour of their skin, while keeping the franchises happy and pick guys who are actually fit.

the overseas based players didn't commit to a franchise, and IMHO they don't have to, they already shown their class, and their commitment to the Springboks is sufficient in my view. This is actually a good thing, it opens up spots in the franchises for youngsters, to show what they can do. I also don't have a problem with our guys playing for Australian teams in the RC. it just makes our pool bigger, and theirs smaller.

But HM is looking to become the best team in the world. he needs the experienced guys. And a guy like Bakkies Botha, who is infamous to every non-saffa, is a hero to every Saffa. When the squad was announced on Monday, my facebook page was flooded with my friends updating their status to "Bakkies is back", "Big boss Bakkies", "Bakkies Botha!!!!" etc... everyone was glad that he's back! he's an icon, why shouldn't he get picked??

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I as a INTP type personality don't see these issues in black and white.

I think there is definite merit in selecting overseas-based players. To some extent (short to medium term) you shoot yourself in the foot by not making use of player resources based broad. NZ does it as well to some degree with their 'sabbaticals' though those are few and well negotiated. Certainly I do think we 1) havn't got the balance right and that it should be more formalized to ensure that a player has to meet some sort of criteria so that players know they have to establish themselves in SA first before they are afforded selection being based abroad-there should certainly also be some type of cap IMO as 10 foreign based players in the Bok squad can only demotivate local players and destabilize the local game which is our backbone and HAS to be the main feeder 2) the local players need to be kept in the loop as well IMO; if you see someone as a possible test player, even remotely so, inform them of where they stand and what you would need from them AND which players are ahead of them as well as which players in their position do you consider to fall into the 'foreign legion' category so that they can make an informed decision.

Now pinning down exact numbers becomes tricky though. My gut would say 4 max. Start deciding which players you can't do without. Kirchner.. I wouldn't even select him if he were based in SA, so that's one down, Jaque Fourie? Sure he is better than JJ Engelbrecht, De Jongh nad at this stage Serfontein, JdV is no 13 and the team would probably be better off now but what happens when JF is done after 2015 and all of Serfontein, Engelbrecht, De Allende etc has followed Ebersohn North? TBH Fourie du Preez is the only one I'd pick at this stage and only if his contract can be renegotiated. Yes, Invictus, the back-up 9 is a worry for me. I think a lot of the problem is that our 9's are being over-coached if I can call it that.