[2013 EOYT] South Africa

[TRF_heineken]

I as a INTP type personality don't see these issues in black and white.

What is INTP?? a Big Ewis acronym??

Our problems isn't black and white, true. But We have to make due with what we can to the best of our abilities.

I think the scrumhalf area is picking up nicely. I wouldn't be too worried about this. It may sound weird, but Piet Van Zyl moving to the Bulls will work wonders for his development, especially with a more structured gameplan. With Jake White going to the Sharks, Cobus Reinach's development will also greatly improve. I just wonder what is going to happen with Francois Hougaard, only time will tell.

But this is a bit off topic.

JJ Engelbrecht I think is being unfairly criticised. He has improved greatly, and was one of our top defenders vs. the All Blacks in the last test (according to statistics). Jaque Fourie is our best outside centre since Danie Gerber. His contribution towards JJ's play will be of great value, especially in the defense part.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

What is INTP?? a Big Ewis acronym??

Our problems isn't black and white, true. But We have to make due with what we can to the best of our abilities.

I think the scrumhalf area is picking up nicely. I wouldn't be too worried about this. It may sound weird, but Piet Van Zyl moving to the Bulls will work wonders for his development, especially with a more structured gameplan. With Jake White going to the Sharks, Cobus Reinach's development will also greatly improve. I just wonder what is going to happen with Francois Hougaard, only time will tell.

But this is a bit off topic.

JJ Engelbrecht I think is being unfairly criticised. He has improved greatly, and was one of our top defenders vs. the All Blacks in the last test (according to statistics). Jaque Fourie is our best outside centre since Danie Gerber. His contribution towards JJ's play will be of great value, especially in the defense part.

LOL, hmm, this is considered standard stuff ITO identifying personality types with mine- INTP- refering to Introvert , iNtuition , Thinking and Perceiving. The Perceiving as opposed to Judging means I look at and see value in both sides of the argument as opposed to a 'go-getter' type of person who finds making decisions easy.

I think the stats can be deceiving WRT JJs defense. He puts JdV inside him under a lot of pressure on defense ITO positioning from what I have seen. On attack I see him as more of a finisher as a creator which is not necessarily a bad thing but I think we havn't got the balance quiet right yet. That said, JJ is still young and this backline can't be seen as a finished article and we have to accept our development/ base for continuity got shot to hell under PdV so to some degree we have to accept we are starting from base 1..

I've decided I'm not gonne stress about the conundrum at 9 ATM and wait and see what develops next year. Like you said there are a number of good players though no-one looks like a sure future world class 9 at this stage. I'm going on the basis that one at least of many of these new guys (with Duvenhage, Vermaak etc moving on) will develop into at least getting basics right. I don't think we need a 'special' player at 9 if we can just get someone with an accurate pass and who can get the ball cleared quickly.

 

[TRF_heineken]

LOL, hmm, this is considered standard stuff ITO identifying personality types with mine- INTP- refering to Introvert , iNtuition , Thinking and Perceiving. The Perceiving as opposed to Judging means I look at and see value in both sides of the argument as opposed to a 'go-getter' type of person who finds making decisions easy.

Oh Okay... In that case I'm sorry for comparing you to old frenchy

I think the stats can be deceiving WRT JJs defense. He puts JdV inside him under a lot of pressure on defense ITO positioning from what I have seen. On attack I see him as more of a finisher as a creator which is not necessarily a bad thing but I think we havn't got the balance quiet right yet. That said, JJ is still young and this backline can't be seen as a finished article and we have to accept our development/ base for continuity got shot to hell under PdV so to some degree we have to accept we are starting from base 1..

I'm going to use the names of Jaque Fourie and Tana Umaga here. They were both wingers and great finishers of the game, that switched to the 13 jersey, and made a great success of it. I think JJ will do this step up too. his immense pace and size is the thing that will prove that this was not a bad move.

I've decided I'm not gonne stress about the conundrum at 9 ATM and wait and see what develops next year. Like you said there are a number of good players though no-one looks like a sure future world class 9 at this stage. I'm going on the basis that one at least of many of these new guys (with Duvenhage, Vermaak etc moving on) will develop into at least getting basics right. I don't think we need a 'special' player at 9 if we can just get someone with an accurate pass and who can get the ball cleared quickly.

I think its waaaaaaaaay too early to worry about this position. South Africa has been blessed with always producing World Class scrumhalves. Divan Serfontein set the tone, and our guys just developed more and more. We talk about this position as if FdP and Ruan Pienaar are already dead. and we shouldn't. It's clear that FdP still has one more World Cup in him, and that is 2 years away. A LOT can happen in 2 years... Who knows, the next Joost could be 16 now, playing for a school in a small town, that nobody has heard of yet...

 

[Draggs]

Jannie du Plessis has been ruled out with a shoulder and hand injury. Lauren's Adriaanse has be called up as his replacement.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Jannie du Plessis has been ruled out with a shoulder and hand injury. Lauren's Adriaanse has be called up as his replacement.

Again injury strengthens SA. +1 for the good news; that JdP won't tour, not the injury of course. There is a difference.

Between Coenie, Frans and Lourens we havr TH adequately covered an add a bit to the workrate of our tight 5.

 

[Draggs]

Yeah, as much as I like Jannie, he needs a break. Hasn't looked good for a while. Also forces SA to look around for another THP, good time to develop some depth. Think Lourens will be a good signing for the Sharks, especially with Jannie likely to slowly get phased out. Lourens' brother, Jacobie, is getting on well in Wales by the way. Wish he as brought over a year earlier in case we wanted him for RWC2015. Johan Snyman and George Earle are pretty solid for the Scarlets as well, maybe they want to be the new Ulster/Saracens/Toulon.

 

[Da Grappla]

Surprised...Frans Steyn didn't make it into the team

 

[TRF_heineken]

Surprised...Frans Steyn didn't make it into the team

Why Surprized?? He's unfit, hasn't shown that he is on form and only played in the Currie Cup's semi-final and final. By that time, the bok-team gor the EOYT was basically finalised.

 

[Da Grappla]

Aha...ok. I just watched the semis and the final. He didn't look outstanding, but just delivered and I thought Jaque Fourie was out of the team because he plays in Japan.

Yeah, I do know FdP plays in Japan too...but last summer he seemed the only reliable option.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Aha...ok. I just watched the semis and the final. He didn't look outstanding, but just delivered and I thought Jaque Fourie was out of the team because he plays in Japan.

Yeah, I do know FdP plays in Japan too...but last summer he seemed the only reliable option.

Francois Steyn played 2 games since his injury in May. He played quite well for a player just coming back from injury but nothing worth of a Bok call up in my opinion. He's not even on the shortlist for me with Robert Ebersohn and Heimar Williams having proven more in the Currie Cup

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Aha...ok. I just watched the semis and the final. He didn't look outstanding, but just delivered and I thought Jaque Fourie was out of the team because he plays in Japan.

Yeah, I do know FdP plays in Japan too...but last summer he seemed the only reliable option.

Francois Steyn played 2 games since his injury in May. He played quite well for a player just coming back from injury but nothing worth of a Bok call up in my opinion. He's not even on the shortlist for me with Robert Ebersohn and Heimar Williams having proven more in the Currie Cup

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Wrap up time?

A successful enough tour if you ask me. Some frustrations but overall 3/3 wins is what matters foremost and that we got. What did we learn and what do we still need to do? My 2cents;


Ruan Pienaar needs to come back to SA or simply not receive a Bok call up again. He has already extended his Ulster contract so that makes things clear IMO. He simply is not up to scratch. That said guys like Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Jean de Villiers and more recently Flip van der Merwe have been excellent under Heynecke Meyer so might HM see something we don't in his crystal ball? FdP has been excellent but we need depth particularly with FdP only half available.

Have Bakkies Botha, Jaque Fourie and JP Pietersen still got it? I would say JPP certainly did, particularly if you take into considereation that his back in SA and look at the alternatives for the other wing; Basson? No. Mvovo? No. Move Le Roux there? No, because Kirchner and Lambie have disappointed at 15. JJ Engelbrecht or Damian de Allende? Maybe but they don't play their rugby there at club level which makes it difficult to say. JPP just fits our game so well to boot and I'm sure a return to SR will see him get back on track with the tempo. Jaque Fourie and Botha both have proven themselves classy players in the past (at least ITO ability) but to a large extent looked rusty and though I think they should stay in the extended squad I think they should stand back for others; PSdT/Etzebeth/vdMerwe ahead of Bakkies and Engelbrecht/JdV/Serfontein ahead of Jaque and then if Frans Steyn can get fit there is him to consider as well if only for the no. 22 jersey where he gives us options. So only adding depth in case of injury. Jean de Villiers is a classy captain but does he have 2 more years in this form left in him??? He is an intelligent player and if the management of the Stormers and Bokke look after him I'm sure he can make it. I agree with HM that the onus should be on the provinces/franchises to rest players, not the Springboks. SARU needs to take this into consideration.

"Do we have test tight heads beyond Jannie du Plessis?" was my biggest concern prior to this tour and what an answer our boys gave!! Malherbe, Oosthuizen and Adriaanse to a lesser extent as well all stood up very well IMO. They didn't give away anything in the scrum and are assets in general play whereas Jannie started falling off way too many critical tackles. Maybe the doc gets back to his best with some rest but if he doesn't I won't lose slepp because we have the goods and then there is Marcel van der Merwe along with Cheetahs Trevor Nyakane and the returned Wian du Preez to push the guys who have the inside track. Looking good I'd say.

Le Roux is the answer to a problem we've had for so long it was almost accepted we didn't have a full back that can add more than joining the line as the last man on attack. Taute might come through as well if he manages to return from loooooong injury successfully. Speaking of creativity and long injuries, I pray Johan Goosen comes good and stays good as Lambie's sub par performances with ample time was my biggest disappointment this tour (apart from the continued reliance on Pienaar). He looked like a stripped and rusty gear in an otherwise well oiled machine.

What a backrow we have!!?! Apart from Alberts the other two didn't miss a tackle and the sheer impact of the tackles Alberts does make more than makes up for the 2 he misses a match IMO. All 3 can carry effectively as well. Beyond them I hope to see Arno Botha and Siya Kolisi as the reserves though I still have a soft spot for Heinrich Brussow to be a back-up fetcher. Louw did get 2 yellows on tour but I am not too worried as both were very harsh IMO and I can't see it becoming a trend.

So we seem very comfortable against any opposition and- importantly for RWC2015- in NH conditions and have adapted well to NH refs with our work at the breakdown now a key strength whereas it was a weakness just 2 years ago. Now to get back at NZ next year. This time around if there is controversy I hope it is to our advantage. We can certainly do with some luck. It's gonna be a long wait..

 

[Gena_ZA]

Agree with your summary, pretty spot on
Now that this NH hemisphere obstacle is out of the way we can concentrate on S15 and the All Blacks again - that is a proper challenge

 

[The Jones Boy]

+1 Stormer 2010.
This is the best looking Bok team in a long while.
For a time it seemed the best weapon the rest of the world had against the Boks was their own coach, Pieter de Villiers. With that brain block removed the flood gates have opened to talent and brawn.
Ruan Pienaar- kick him to the curb.
JDV, he should be fine through to the RWC as long as they leave him captain, it has revitalised him to no end, he's like a younger version of himself with an older head.
Willie le Roux has been the find of the season at International level. That guy is class and how you copuld ever play Kirchner over le Roux at fullback defies the intellect.
Pietersen has done fine on the wing.
Alberts is awesome on attack but he's either slow on defence or slow to read and anticipate on defence. His attack may make up for that but he is not an 80 minute player at this time.
What happened to Heinrich Brussow? That guy was awesome a short while ago.
A quality solid pass mark for the untroubled Boks who didn't spend much time getting out of 2nd gear on their northern tour.
The Aussies stuttered against England before finding their form.
The All Blacks struggled every game to get their tight wins.
In comparison the Springbok juggernaut looked like it hardly needed to be awoken from it's slumber to roll over it's opponents.
Against Wales the Boks did it easily, Scotland was a training stroll and France were a shadow of the threat they might have been because the Boks would not be moved.
This is an awesome team in waiting. Results in the RC aside this year has been a glittering success.

 

[TRF_heineken]

+1 Stormer 2010.
This is the best looking Bok team in a long while.
For a time it seemed the best weapon the rest of the world had against the Boks was their own coach, Pieter de Villiers. With that brain block removed the flood gates have opened to talent and brawn.
Ruan Pienaar- kick him to the curb.

We always had the flood gates open with talent coming through, But with PDV, he didn't pick the correct guys to play or take over. They were basically sitting on the sideline waiting for a chance and when they didn't get it, they moved on.

JDV, he should be fine through to the RWC as long as they leave him captain, it has revitalised him to no end, he's like a younger version of himself with an older head.

This season he was just immense and there is no reason why he should be demoted. But a lot can change in a year, and it was nearly a year ago we all questioned HM's choice in captaincy and why JDV is being picked ahead of other players who were more on form.

Willie le Roux has been the find of the season at International level. That guy is class and how you copuld ever play Kirchner over le Roux at fullback defies the intellect.

Willie still has some work to do IMO, especially in defence. While Kirchner lacked many attacking skills, he was always a solid defender, and nearly always made the tackle when it was a one-on-one situation. It was a balance between defence orientated play style against attack orientated style. And both these guys played well with the gameplan they excel at.

Pietersen has done fine on the wing.

I'll reserve my judgement on this. He only played 3 games and in the first one he was out of shape and very slow. The last one he put in a great performance, but that doesn't warrant him a permanent spot at wing.

Alberts is awesome on attack but he's either slow on defence or slow to read and anticipate on defence. His attack may make up for that but he is not an 80 minute player at this time.

I think you are missing the value Willem brings on attack. There's a reason why he's being called the Bone Collector. His anticipatory skills are one of the reasons why he gets those monster hits right on unsuspecting opposing players with ball in hand. He puts in tackle afte tackle and does the grunt work very well.

What happened to Heinrich Brussow? That guy was awesome a short while ago.

He's playing in Japan. HM said he was too small and out of form (which he was) and had too many penalties given against him during the Super Rugby Tournament. In all fairness HM was correct on his assessment, and with Brussouw not taking the news lightly, he moved almost immediately.

A quality solid pass mark for the untroubled Boks who didn't spend much time getting out of 2nd gear on their northern tour.
The Aussies stuttered against England before finding their form.
The All Blacks struggled every game to get their tight wins.
In comparison the Springbok juggernaut looked like it hardly needed to be awoken from it's slumber to roll over it's opponents.
Against Wales the Boks did it easily, Scotland was a training stroll and France were a shadow of the threat they might have been because the Boks would not be moved.
This is an awesome team in waiting. Results in the RC aside this year has been a glittering success.

Good to see members from other nations coming to the same conclusion as myself.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Alberts is a must for the gain line success he brings and though he misses 2 tackles a game, usually on clever backs who target him at pace, the ones he does make are brutal. Some of the databases I've looked at have Vermeulen and Louw both on a 100% tackle success rate this tour so I think we can afford to have Alberts miss his usual 2 a game. I doubt we could change that as his size is his biggest asset and getting him to a point where he has the acceleration to close the space clever backs make on him will take away from his impact.

Heinrich Brussow is in Japan but will be back for most of the Cheetah's games as I understand it. Essentially the same deal with JP Pietersen who will jog out for the Sharks though I question the sheer amount of rugby; look at Peter Grant trying to play both Super rugby and Japanese top rugby and being injured on a semi permanent basis. I do think Brussow has a lot to still offer SA rugby but it'll a tough gig to break into the loose trio from now on.

I for one won't read too much into NZ kinda slugging through the EoYT; those teams each played the best rugby they've played since forever and England since last year and still got beat.