[2013 EOYT] New Zealand

[ABs2011]

The game is scheduled for Nov. 2 in Tokyo (start time 6:30pm NZ time).

There are many reasons for the ABs picking up this test, one of them being it is a good opportunity to start some players that otherwise wouldn't. SO...wondering who people would like to see?

An article out today suggests DC will actually start, taking the opportunity to get some game time before heading on to the remaining games in the NH.

Here is the team I would like to see start:
1 Crockett
2 Coltman
3 Faumuina
4 Romano
5 Thrush
6 Luatua
7 Ardie Savea
8 Vito
9 Kerr-Barlow
10 Carter (c)
11 Jane
12 Saili
13 Crotty
14 Halai
15 Piutau

Off the bench I would like to see B. Shields, L. Whitelock, TJ Perenara (or Pulu), Barrett, Ben Smith at 13 all get some significant game time!

The big calls in my team would be Ardie getting a shot (absolutely the stand out player in the ITM cup this year), Vito getting a recall (we don't really have a backup No. 8 at the moment and Vito has been massive for Wellington this year), and Crotty getting a shot at 13 (need to broaden our 13 options).

Thoughts?

 

[admartian]

Carter? I'd like to see Barrett start tbh. And place Ben Smith ahead of Crotty.

Doubt we;ll see Ardie Savea though. Same with Vito. Will prob get Shields there or Messam.

 

[Patchey]

Carter? I'd like to see Barrett start tbh. And place Ben Smith ahead of Crotty.

Doubt we;ll see Ardie Savea though. Same with Vito. Will prob get Shields there or Messam.

On the money. I think Cruden on the bench and Carter saved for the matches in Europe. Croty on the bench too and will probably make the touring squad for Europe.


I agree that Ardie Savea has been awesome in the ITM (just watching the Auckland/Wellington game as I type) but I don't remember him being as dominant with the Hurricanes in the Super Rugby season. I reckon he's got another year to go before he makes the All Blacks. I don't know if he qualifies for NZ Maori though, don't they have a couple of games in the Autumn?

 

[ABs2011]

Carter? I'd like to see Barrett start tbh. And place Ben Smith ahead of Crotty.

Doubt we;ll see Ardie Savea though. Same with Vito. Will prob get Shields there or Messam.

The DC situation is the result of his injury and the fact he is almost certain to miss the OZ game in Otago. He needs game time so the Japan game is the logical choice! Did you guys read the article?

"If he's not right we won't risk him [in Dunedin] and we'll just take him straight through to Japan," All Blacks coach Steve Hansen said. "He needs some rugby so it would be an ideal game. He's hovering in the high 90s and it would be nice to see him get to the 100."

Vito, I agree is unlikely BUT I think he deserves a spot and we need legit No. 8 cover and I'm not sure L Whitelock is better than Vito so why not?

Ardie would be a massive long shot and a big risk but momentum has been mounting over the last week for him to get a call up since Todd will be out. Did you see him play v Auck? Extremely impressive and I have no doubt he is a serious RWC option as the third option at 7!

 

[ABs2011]

On the money. I think Cruden on the bench and Carter saved for the matches in Europe. Croty on the bench too and will probably make the touring squad for Europe.


I agree that Ardie Savea has been awesome in the ITM (just watching the Auckland/Wellington game as I type) but I don't remember him being as dominant with the Hurricanes in the Super Rugby season. I reckon he's got another year to go before he makes the All Blacks. I don't know if he qualifies for NZ Maori though, don't they have a couple of games in the Autumn?

No he is not Maori. The Saveas are of Samoan decent.

 

[admartian]

The DC situation is the result of his injury and the fact he is almost certain to miss the OZ game in Otago. He needs game time so the Japan game is the logical choice! Did you guys read the article?

"If he's not right we won't risk him [in Dunedin] and we'll just take him straight through to Japan," All Blacks coach Steve Hansen said. "He needs some rugby so it would be an ideal game. He's hovering in the high 90s and it would be nice to see him get to the 100."

Vito, I agree is unlikely BUT I think he deserves a spot and we need legit No. 8 cover and I'm not sure L Whitelock is better than Vito so why not?

Ardie would be a massive long shot and a big risk but momentum has been mounting over the last week for him to get a call up since Todd will be out. Did you see him play v Auck? Extremely impressive and I have no doubt he is a serious RWC option as the third option at 7!

Fair enough then. I didn't doubt that he would start - just thought that Barrett should.

 

[ABs2011]

Fair enough then. I didn't doubt that he would start - just thought that Barrett should.

Yeah, for sure. I'm a little bit disappointed, as I had hoped Barrett would start as well. For the greater good (and a potential sweep of the tour) I guess Carter should start though - makes sense.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Not sure why L.Whitelock has been included in these sorts of things. Do you guys actually rate him or just put him there because that's what you expect the management to do?

 

[Darwin]

Not sure why L.Whitelock has been included in these sorts of things. Do you guys actually rate him or just put him there because that's what you expect the management to do?

I rate him. I think he has proven this ITM Cup season to be the 3rd best number 8..... in the Canterbury ITM Cup squad*








*4th best when you consider Read is also a Canterbury player, even though he doesn't play much for them these days.

 

[ABs2011]

Not sure why L.Whitelock has been included in these sorts of things. Do you guys actually rate him or just put him there because that's what you expect the management to do?

The latter - I haven't watched him enough to have much of an opinion on him. My default position, if I am not sure, is to back Hansen and co. as they has pretty much done no wrong so far! In saying that I'd like to see Vito get another chance as I think he was no where near to fulfilling his potential during his time in the Black Jersey.

I have a laugh sometimes on this forum when posters (like some fullah yesterday who was saying Aaron Smith is useless!) are so adamant in the face of contrary evidence. You have to wonder how he reconciles that sort of opinion with those of Hansen, Foster, Fox, McClean etc.... While I haven't seen much of Luke Whitelock he has obviously got a lot to offer otherwise AB coaching staff, selectors and management would not have brought him in. If they want to develop the younger guys like they say they do in Japan then they will give him game time v Japan.

 

[Darwin]

The latter - I haven't watched him enough to have much of an opinion on him. My default position, if I am not sure, is to back Hansen and co. as they has pretty much done no wrong so far! In saying that I'd like to see Vito get another chance as I think he was no where near to fulfilling his potential during his time in the Black Jersey.

I have a laugh sometimes on this forum when posters (like some fullah yesterday who was saying Aaron Smith is useless!) are so adamant in the face of contrary evidence. You have to wonder how he reconciles that sort of opinion with those of Hansen, Foster, Fox, McClean etc.... While I haven't seen much of Luke Whitelock he has obviously got a lot to offer otherwise AB coaching staff, selectors and management would not have brought him in. If they want to develop the younger guys like they say they do in Japan then they will give him game time v Japan.

I think that is a pretty safe default position given the AB's record under Hansen! However I (along with many others) can't really understand why Luke Whitelock has been included in a few AB's training camps. I can understand the inclusion of the likes of Frank Halai, Brad Shields, Francis Saili etc - these are incredibly talented young players who have shone at Super Rugby level. The thing with Luke Whitelock is that he hasn't even stood-out at ITM Cup level, let alone Super Rugby level. There are really no stand-out features to his game - he is pretty solid in most departments, but if you watched him during an ITM match you wouldn't automatically think "he's a Super Rugby player", let alone "he's a potential All Black"! This nothing against Luke Whitelock - he is a good young player who probably deserves a spot in a Super Rugby squad, and could one day evolve into anAll Black. However based on form alone I wouldn't have him near an AB's squad at the moment. As well as being well behind Read, Messam, and Luatua he would also be well behind the likes of Shields, Vito, Manu, and even his brother George - all players who have proven they can deliver at Super Rugby level. Obviously the AB's selectors know a lot more about these players than us armchair critics, so there is something about Luke Whitelock that I'm missing (perhaps he gives Hansen great shoulder massages )....

 

[ABs2011]

I think that is a pretty safe default position given the AB's record under Hansen! However I (along with many others) can't really understand why Luke Whitelock has been included in a few AB's training camps. I can understand the inclusion of the likes of Frank Halai, Brad Shields, Francis Saili etc - these are incredibly talented young players who have shone at Super Rugby level. The thing with Luke Whitelock is that he hasn't even stood-out at ITM Cup level, let alone Super Rugby level. There are really no stand-out features to his game - he is pretty solid in most departments, but if you watched him during an ITM match you wouldn't automatically think "he's a Super Rugby player", let alone "he's a potential All Black"! This nothing against Luke Whitelock - he is a good young player who probably deserves a spot in a Super Rugby squad, and could one day evolve into anAll Black. However based on form alone I wouldn't have him near an AB's squad at the moment. As well as being well behind Read, Messam, and Luatua he would also be well behind the likes of Shields, Vito, Manu, and even his brother George - all players who have proven they can deliver at Super Rugby level. Obviously the AB's selectors know a lot more about these players than us armchair critics, so there is something about Luke Whitelock that I'm missing (perhaps he gives Hansen great shoulder massages )....

Interesting comments. I will be taking a keen interest in him come the ITM cup finals so I can see first hand what everyone is on about It will be his chance to show he is a serious contender. Then hopefully I can begin to form an opinion on him. He intrigues me now because I think he is the one AB player discussed on this forum that has attracted opinions of such extremes. There is at least on person on here (can't recall who - maybe Larksea) that seems to think he is the next best thing, someone that would have achieved more than Luatua had he been given the chance.....while several others such as your self are pretty negative on him. I shall join the debate in full after the ITM cup

 

[admartian]

Interesting comments. I will be taking a keen interest in him come the ITM cup finals so I can see first hand what everyone is on about It will be his chance to show he is a serious contender. Then hopefully I can begin to form an opinion on him. He intrigues me now because I think he is the one AB player discussed on this forum that has attracted opinions of such extremes. There is at least on person on here (can't recall who - maybe Larksea) that seems to think he is the next best thing, someone that would have achieved more than Luatua had he been given the chance.....while several others such as your self are pretty negative on him. I shall join the debate in full after the ITM cup

The thing about Luatua thoguh, is that he's shone in SR - week in, week out. Same for test rugby.

At least in terms of SR, can't really say the same about Luke Whitelock. And also, let's not forget that with as many hits the AB coaches/selectors stick, there are also a few misses. So there might be sting to that "gives great back rubs".

 

[Darwin]

It will be very interesting to see whether the AB's selectors give Ardie Savea a crack. He is a complete freak in the 7 jersey - I'm not convinced he is ready for test rugby (yet), but I can't recall I player with so much potential. The big thing that may count against Savea is that he plays a very different style to the current AB's opensides, who are more physical players whose standout quality is their incredible work-rate. In contrast Savea is less physical, but is incredibly athletic and can do things I have never seen and openside do before (perhaps as I was too young to appreciate Michael Jones when he was in his prime). I'm usually pretty cautious about promoting young players to test rugby before they are ready, but I can't help but be excited by the prospect of seeing Savea in Black as soon as possible!

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I font see Savea going on tour. I'll go into a bit on re depth when I get home...

 

[ABs2011]

It will be very interesting to see whether the AB's selectors give Ardie Savea a crack. He is a complete freak in the 7 jersey - I'm not convinced he is ready for test rugby (yet), but I can't recall I player with so much potential. The big thing that may count against Savea is that he plays a very different style to the current AB's opensides, who are more physical players whose standout quality is their incredible work-rate. In contrast Savea is less physical, but is incredibly athletic and can do things I have never seen and openside do before (perhaps as I was too young to appreciate Michael Jones when he was in his prime). I'm usually pretty cautious about promoting young players to test rugby before they are ready, but I can't help but be excited by the prospect of seeing Savea in Black as soon as possible!

Yup, I tend to agree (he looked out of his depth at times in SR last season). BUT, he is on a fast improve, is a freak, AND I believe this would be the best way to prep him for the RWC 2015 IF that is in the selectors minds (and one would think it has to be...)

He could go on this tour, play against Japan, and at most maybe come off the bench v Ireland - could be a perfect learning curve. I think such a tour would do wonders for his development and the ABs stock at 7. I hope they take a punt on him!

IF not who do the ABs take as the 3rd openside?

 

[ABs2011]

I font see Savea going on tour. I'll go into a bit on re depth when I get home...

Interested in what you think mate - I note in the squad you suggested you don't have a 3rd specialist openside. It's such a specialist position these days I feel we need to take someone as a third option for development purposes and if not it would be an opportunity wasted... particularly seeing as there is the Japan match to take advantage of!

EDIT: I don't think they will take him either BUT I hope they do

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

I like the look of that team against a side like Japan.

Imo, I agree about Savea being a great prospect, but we have other blindsides who have been waiting in the line longer then him. I think we should start Cane, Luatua and Messam (the loose trio for the future minus messam), and have Shields and Braid on the bench. I like Braid and can't help think how unlucky he has been to not be in the ABs environment.

I think Nanai Williams should get a call up as well. Great attacker but kind of lacks the defense that I think the ABs want.

 

[Darwin]

I font see Savea going on tour. I'll go into a bit on re depth when I get home...

I don't see selectors picking Savea for the tour either (nor would I pick him myself given my more conservative nature). However if he was selected I couldn't help but get excited!

Yup, I tend to agree (he looked out of his depth at times in SR last season). BUT, he is on a fast improve, is a freak, AND I believe this would be the best way to prep him for the RWC 2015 IF that is in the selectors minds (and one would think it has to be...)

He could go on this tour, play against Japan, and at most maybe come off the bench v Ireland - could be a perfect learning curve. I think such a tour would do wonders for his development and the ABs stock at 7. I hope they take a punt on him!

IF not who do the ABs take as the 3rd openside?

I'm not sure about Luke Braid's current injury, but if he was for he would be my pick. He has been excellent for the last couple of seasons at Super Rugby level, and his style of play suits what the AB's look for in an openside. I don't expect he will be picked (as the AB's selectors don't appear to be big fans of him), but he is who I would go for. The other obvious option (should the require three 7's) is Latimer. I'm not a massive fan - he is a good player who will give 100% every match and won't let the side down, but I feel there are better options around.

 

[ABs2011]

I like the look of that team against a side like Japan.

Imo, I agree about Savea being a great prospect, but we have other blindsides who have been waiting in the line longer then him. I think we should start Cane, Luatua and Messam (the loose trio for the future minus messam), and have Shields and Braid on the bench. I like Braid and can't help think how unlucky he has been to not be in the ABs environment.

I think Nanai Williams should get a call up as well. Great attacker but kind of lacks the defense that I think the ABs want.

I believe both will be unavailable due to injury.