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[2013 EOYT] England
- Thread starter Big Ewis
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So...? Still a wasted talent.
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the wasted talent award goes to the tango man as for JSD to my knowledge 4 head coaches overlooked him I know we have had some good wingers over the years but to be rejected that many times might suggest something we are not privy too..
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So... after round 4:
1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Tom Youngs
3. Davey Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Geoff Parling
6. Tom Wood/Chris Robshaw
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Ben Morgan
9. Ben Youngs
10. Owen Farrell
11. Marland Yarde
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden
16. Dylan Hartley
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Dan Cole
19. Dave Attwood
20. Billy Vunipola
21. Lee Dickson
22. Kyle Eastmond
23. Mike Brown
Corbisiero - no explanation necessary.
Mako is playing phenomenally at the moment - clearly our second best.
The minute he starts to become an effective scrummager is the minute he becomes one of our most valuable players.
If he is injured then Joe Marler is playing well. I know a lot of people seem to dislike him - I love him.
He is developing consistently - slow and steady wins the race, kids... especially as a prop.
Youngs get's the nod over Hartley (Lancaster will not start him after his ban) despite Dylan's outstanding lineout form - Saints have a close to perfect record so far.
This may change depending on how these two fair in the other set-piece, which is a bit of an unknown for NH international sides.
Wilson is simply in better form than Cole. He's upped his workrate in defence and his scrummaging is making me steep.
Cole continues to be phenomenal at the breakdown - but terrible carrying the ball.
He's also inconsistent at best as a scrummager.
Launchbury and Parling haven't put a foot wrong. Attwood deserves to play, but should do so from the bench.
Dave looked very powerful when he came off the bench vs Sarries, so he may turn out to be a good impact player.
We can also gauge what our scrum is like vs Australia, before heading into the Pumas match, where we definitely don't want to be caught napping.
Tom Wood looks to be in better form than Robshaw at the moment - So I'd go with him.
But Robshaw plays better for England than he does Quins so it's hard to judge, especially considering the tight 5's they're both playing behind.
This comes down to form. I don't know that either should be on the bench, because they aren't exactly impact players (Robshaw in particular).
Kvesic has been the best 7 in the premiership this season from what I've seen (barring Dan Braid).
That pretty much qualifies him to start in my mind.
He's a phenomenal athlete, a genuine pest at the breakdown and cool-headed.
I hope (and rather suspect) that he's going to take to international rugby in much the same way as Launchbury.
At the moment Ben Morgan starts, despite the much better form of Billy Bunipona.
Him doing so against Australia depends on him being able to start for Gloucester and play very well.
Billy has improved immeasurably from last season - everything that I've seen suggests he could very well be our starter by the end of this series.
130kg back rowers with decent brains and high workrates don't come around very often.
Perhaps Morgan would benefit from spending some time with Sarries' S&C team!
Scrum half is a position I'm still not totally happy with, every candidate seems to have at least one potentially severe deficiency at international level.
Youngs is the man in possession, Dickson on the bench for contrast and flexibility in tactics.
Frustrating.
Farrell looks to have learnt a lot on the Lions tour. Bearing in mind he is behind an utterly dominant pack - he has looked very good (if not masterful) in all aspects of FH play.
As much as I'd like to play Burns on the bench, I don't think there is room. O, How I'd kill for a fourth game against Fiji.
Twelvetrees has looked good too, barring a number of unnecessary mistakes, the obvious choice.
Eastmond has also looked good, with limited opportunity (picking up a knock in the first game) and playing outside a new FH and inside a new OC.
His relationship with both Ford and JJ is showing some green shoots. He was also the only centre to not miss a tackle on the weekend btw - 9/0
His ability to cover pretty much anywhere from 10-15 makes him a potent bench player.
Outside centre. ****.
Lots of options, no real standout. Joseph is the most experienced and looks in decent form/fitness so I've gone with him.
In reality I wouldn't be that unhappy to see any of Trinder, Tomkins or Daly there.
What I would be unhappy to see is an inside center like Allen or Burrell picked there.
Marland Yarde is so far ahead of any other winger at this point. Is there any question he'll be picked - Yes? - You're an idiot.
As much as it pains me to say it, I'd give Ashton a chance ahead of Wade.
Ashton is still a terrible defender, but he does look to have turned a corner form wise, even if it has been exaggerated.
I would still be very happy to see a Wade/Yarde combo - In fact, I will be very ****** off if Wade doesn't feature at all.
Thankfully Foden has lost the knack he picked up a year or two ago of making one or two huge errors in a game.
He might not make as many metres as Brown, but he seems much more able to do something effective with the metres he does make.
If Ashton really does thrive off him as much as people say, then we will hopefully see it.
Goode is brass.
As an aside - it's great to see some of the lads from the u20's team playing premiership rugby.
Sam Hill was outstanding against Leicester on Sunday.
1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Tom Youngs
3. Davey Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Geoff Parling
6. Tom Wood/Chris Robshaw
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Ben Morgan
9. Ben Youngs
10. Owen Farrell
11. Marland Yarde
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden
16. Dylan Hartley
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Dan Cole
19. Dave Attwood
20. Billy Vunipola
21. Lee Dickson
22. Kyle Eastmond
23. Mike Brown
Corbisiero - no explanation necessary.
Mako is playing phenomenally at the moment - clearly our second best.
The minute he starts to become an effective scrummager is the minute he becomes one of our most valuable players.
If he is injured then Joe Marler is playing well. I know a lot of people seem to dislike him - I love him.
He is developing consistently - slow and steady wins the race, kids... especially as a prop.
Youngs get's the nod over Hartley (Lancaster will not start him after his ban) despite Dylan's outstanding lineout form - Saints have a close to perfect record so far.
This may change depending on how these two fair in the other set-piece, which is a bit of an unknown for NH international sides.
Wilson is simply in better form than Cole. He's upped his workrate in defence and his scrummaging is making me steep.
Cole continues to be phenomenal at the breakdown - but terrible carrying the ball.
He's also inconsistent at best as a scrummager.
Launchbury and Parling haven't put a foot wrong. Attwood deserves to play, but should do so from the bench.
Dave looked very powerful when he came off the bench vs Sarries, so he may turn out to be a good impact player.
We can also gauge what our scrum is like vs Australia, before heading into the Pumas match, where we definitely don't want to be caught napping.
Tom Wood looks to be in better form than Robshaw at the moment - So I'd go with him.
But Robshaw plays better for England than he does Quins so it's hard to judge, especially considering the tight 5's they're both playing behind.
This comes down to form. I don't know that either should be on the bench, because they aren't exactly impact players (Robshaw in particular).
Kvesic has been the best 7 in the premiership this season from what I've seen (barring Dan Braid).
That pretty much qualifies him to start in my mind.
He's a phenomenal athlete, a genuine pest at the breakdown and cool-headed.
I hope (and rather suspect) that he's going to take to international rugby in much the same way as Launchbury.
At the moment Ben Morgan starts, despite the much better form of Billy Bunipona.
Him doing so against Australia depends on him being able to start for Gloucester and play very well.
Billy has improved immeasurably from last season - everything that I've seen suggests he could very well be our starter by the end of this series.
130kg back rowers with decent brains and high workrates don't come around very often.
Perhaps Morgan would benefit from spending some time with Sarries' S&C team!
Scrum half is a position I'm still not totally happy with, every candidate seems to have at least one potentially severe deficiency at international level.
Youngs is the man in possession, Dickson on the bench for contrast and flexibility in tactics.
Frustrating.
Farrell looks to have learnt a lot on the Lions tour. Bearing in mind he is behind an utterly dominant pack - he has looked very good (if not masterful) in all aspects of FH play.
As much as I'd like to play Burns on the bench, I don't think there is room. O, How I'd kill for a fourth game against Fiji.
Twelvetrees has looked good too, barring a number of unnecessary mistakes, the obvious choice.
Eastmond has also looked good, with limited opportunity (picking up a knock in the first game) and playing outside a new FH and inside a new OC.
His relationship with both Ford and JJ is showing some green shoots. He was also the only centre to not miss a tackle on the weekend btw - 9/0
His ability to cover pretty much anywhere from 10-15 makes him a potent bench player.
Outside centre. ****.
Lots of options, no real standout. Joseph is the most experienced and looks in decent form/fitness so I've gone with him.
In reality I wouldn't be that unhappy to see any of Trinder, Tomkins or Daly there.
What I would be unhappy to see is an inside center like Allen or Burrell picked there.
Marland Yarde is so far ahead of any other winger at this point. Is there any question he'll be picked - Yes? - You're an idiot.
As much as it pains me to say it, I'd give Ashton a chance ahead of Wade.
Ashton is still a terrible defender, but he does look to have turned a corner form wise, even if it has been exaggerated.
I would still be very happy to see a Wade/Yarde combo - In fact, I will be very ****** off if Wade doesn't feature at all.
Thankfully Foden has lost the knack he picked up a year or two ago of making one or two huge errors in a game.
He might not make as many metres as Brown, but he seems much more able to do something effective with the metres he does make.
If Ashton really does thrive off him as much as people say, then we will hopefully see it.
Goode is brass.
As an aside - it's great to see some of the lads from the u20's team playing premiership rugby.
Sam Hill was outstanding against Leicester on Sunday.
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- I agree on the props, but not the hookers. I think Hartley has been much better than Youngs so far (across the board) and his lineout work is really needed. England, if I recall correctly, had the worst lineout stats of any nation in the Six Nations. It needs sorting if the backs are to have a chance.
- Still not sure if I'd start Kvesic over Wood/Robshaw. I still want another look at Wood, Robshaw, Morgan which I think was our best back row for some time. The problem of course is the conundrum over number 8- I think Morgan needs some real barnstormers to keep the shirt.
- I agree with the assessment of the scrum half situation. None of them are complete; after the weekend I'd put Care ahead of Youngs though, who, despite his try, was scrappy throughout the game. Particularly since Care has been behind the weaker pack for most games. Youngs benched ahead of Dickson.
- I'd bench Burns ahead of Brown. It's a bit of gamble should Foden get injured, but the change in style he could bring to the back line is of greater worth than injury cover in my opinion.
- It'll be interesting to see how Tomkins goes this weekend. I think it's down to him or Joseph. I'd go with Joseph as well, but Tomkins has looked far more comfortable this season. There's the link with Farrell and Ashton as well.
- Anyone but Goode at fullback. Agree with the Ashton decision. I think Wade's time will be in the Six Nations against either Scotland or Italy- depending on the weather at Murrayfield. Suppose I wouldn't but upset with either player since Ashton's recovered some form.
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Ford's missed the boat for 2015. The players in the EPS should be the ones to take us through to the world cup (bar Goode and maybe Barritt). Chopping and changing now, particularly since we have three good fly-halves, is damaging in my opinion. The time for development is over, it's now time for results.
- Still not sure if I'd start Kvesic over Wood/Robshaw. I still want another look at Wood, Robshaw, Morgan which I think was our best back row for some time. The problem of course is the conundrum over number 8- I think Morgan needs some real barnstormers to keep the shirt.
- I agree with the assessment of the scrum half situation. None of them are complete; after the weekend I'd put Care ahead of Youngs though, who, despite his try, was scrappy throughout the game. Particularly since Care has been behind the weaker pack for most games. Youngs benched ahead of Dickson.
- I'd bench Burns ahead of Brown. It's a bit of gamble should Foden get injured, but the change in style he could bring to the back line is of greater worth than injury cover in my opinion.
- It'll be interesting to see how Tomkins goes this weekend. I think it's down to him or Joseph. I'd go with Joseph as well, but Tomkins has looked far more comfortable this season. There's the link with Farrell and Ashton as well.
- Anyone but Goode at fullback. Agree with the Ashton decision. I think Wade's time will be in the Six Nations against either Scotland or Italy- depending on the weather at Murrayfield. Suppose I wouldn't but upset with either player since Ashton's recovered some form.
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Ford's missed the boat for 2015. The players in the EPS should be the ones to take us through to the world cup (bar Goode and maybe Barritt). Chopping and changing now, particularly since we have three good fly-halves, is damaging in my opinion. The time for development is over, it's now time for results.
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Patchey
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You say that but Manu wasn't in the EPS at the end of 2009. Players can enter the squad later on and still be effective. I agree that the core of the World Cup squad should be made up of current EPS members, otherwise you've got the potential for a real lack of experience and continutiy come 2015. However as far as attacking fly-halves Ford has been the best so far this season. Farrell may, post-Lions, possess the most rounded game with Burns and Flood close behind but that doesn't mean we should discount Ford until after 2015.
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Don't think JJ has started the season that well for Bath - I know he got a try on the weekend, but he's not looked his usual self (Bath play style perhaps?). Though with Manu out then I suppose he's best-of-the-rest, though Trinder is playing very well and Tomkins* is playing for Saracens, so that helps...
*Tomkins is playing well for Saracens but I wouldn't want him playing for England.
*Tomkins is playing well for Saracens but I wouldn't want him playing for England.
I wouldn't discount him entirely, but four good games at Bath isn't enough to boost him up to the EPS; especially when it means losing one of the current fly-halves. Inconsistency has always been his problem and until I see him play like this for a whole season along with good Saxons games (his mistake ultimately cost the Scotland A game), come rain or shine, I wouldn't be confident with him at international level.
I don't think Farrell is learning his attacking game quick enough to start for England, nor that England is the right place to do so. This is a futile argument as you know what Lancaster will do, but I'd play Burns. I would also brick myself if there was no specialist fly-half cover on the bench and I don't count Eastmond as that. Speaking of Eastmond - http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/437-the-stats-do-lie-by-wayne-smith-by-wayne-smith
I would really like Tait or Daly to get a head of steam up, we have a real lack of versatile players for the 23 shirt/who allow a specialist 23.
I'm more or less with the idea of Wilson getting starts ahead of Cole now, but when Cole's on song at the breakdown, his carrying should be irrelevant. No one would drop Pocock for Hooper would they? Granted, in the current pack its an issue, and there are other parts to the game - but give me the turnover monkey over the carrier any day. He will create better attacking opportunities.
I think Robshaw is playing better than Wood. I think this will be irrelevant.
Finally, I would question whether Yarde will be picked. I'd agree there shouldn't be a question, but I don't trust Lancaster to do the right thing.
I would really like Tait or Daly to get a head of steam up, we have a real lack of versatile players for the 23 shirt/who allow a specialist 23.
I'm more or less with the idea of Wilson getting starts ahead of Cole now, but when Cole's on song at the breakdown, his carrying should be irrelevant. No one would drop Pocock for Hooper would they? Granted, in the current pack its an issue, and there are other parts to the game - but give me the turnover monkey over the carrier any day. He will create better attacking opportunities.
I think Robshaw is playing better than Wood. I think this will be irrelevant.
Finally, I would question whether Yarde will be picked. I'd agree there shouldn't be a question, but I don't trust Lancaster to do the right thing.
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That's pretty much the point I'm making about Eastmond though... if you actually watch him play his size isn't really a big issue.
That article does exaplain why I feel Robshaw flatters to deceive.
I think Yarde is exactly the sort of player Lancaster likes, someone with no obvious weaknesses.
He looks at player's weaknesses (particularly defensive) before their strengths from what I've seen.
That article does exaplain why I feel Robshaw flatters to deceive.
I think Yarde is exactly the sort of player Lancaster likes, someone with no obvious weaknesses.
He looks at player's weaknesses (particularly defensive) before their strengths from what I've seen.
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Patchey
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The exception being Ashton.
I feel you're judging him a little too much on te player he was before joining Bath. Agreed four matches isn't enough to say how his season is going to develop or if he'll take to international rugby as well as some young talents do. However, especially in the context of talking about possible teams based on each round of the Premiership, I can't get pasted how good he's been so far.
Lancaster also likes having two full-backs and places a clear premium on winning the kicking duel. He also does a lot of really odd things I have no good explanation for. I would not place my mortgage on Yarde starting.
As for Eastmond - I flat out don't watch enough of him, its true, it was more just a cheeky reaction to you posting the tackle stats.
Can't agree with you on Robshaw at all.
As for Eastmond - I flat out don't watch enough of him, its true, it was more just a cheeky reaction to you posting the tackle stats.
Can't agree with you on Robshaw at all.
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Allen at 12?
Patchey
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Thoughts on this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24357418
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Pennell has looked like an awesome player so far - He's certainly looked better than Goode is.
Better overall than Foden or Brown...?
I'd sooner take Watson.
Better overall than Foden or Brown...?
I'd sooner take Watson.
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Yeah, he's very good and probably good enough to be around the England squad (or at least around the Saxons), but there are loads of 15s around now (a bit of a difference to a few years back!) - I'd take a few over him.
