[2013 EOYT] England

[Patchey]

Harsh words, I don't think even I hate him that much..

 

[Peat]

I'd take Hape over Barritt in a heartbeat.

 

[j'nuh]

15 Morgan

?!

Morgan is a great player.

Put Balshaw there instead.

In fact, better yet, Goode.

I'd take Hape over Barritt in a heartbeat.

Even as an ex-Bulls fan... really?

Barritt is better than Hape.

 

[McTallshort]

We have had some crap over the years wonder what the all time crap England select would be?

 

[Patchey]

I'd take Hape over Barritt in a heartbeat.

I remember you making the point, a while back, when comparing England's 2011 centres with the 2013 ones that Hape/Tindall were a highly understated pairing. It was a very good argument. However I just can't bring myself to like Hape as a player, I'd drop him for purely irrational reasons.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

?!

Morgan is a great player.

Put Balshaw there instead.

In fact, better yet, Goode.


Even as an ex-Bulls fan... really?

Barritt is better than Hape.

I was going to put Goode in but didn't as he is currently in the EPS, otherwise would have him and his stupid up and unders in my team of *****e playes.

Oh and i actually like Balshaw, i know i shouldn't admit that but i did!

 

[j'nuh]

I was going to put Goode in but didn't as he is currently in the EPS, otherwise would have him and his stupid up and unders in my team of *****e playes.

Oh and i actually like Balshaw, i know i shouldn't admit that but i did!

But Morgan is a great player. Often compared to JSD in terms of the caps he could be getting if he didn't spend so much time injured. I don't mind Balshaw, but he's the worst of the good bunch that we've had since '08. Except for Goode.

 

[Peat]

?!

Morgan is a great player.

Put Balshaw there instead.

In fact, better yet, Goode.


Even as an ex-Bulls fan... really?

Barritt is better than Hape.

I have to stick up for Lord Elf here. A very entertaining player, and briefly a very good one. Gets much undeserved schtick. Not saying Morgan should be there either... harsh as this is, Monye is probably the choice for 15 in recent 'wtf' England team.

As for Barritt vs Hape - I hit up the stats here http://muchadoaboutrucking.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/englands-central-problem_31.html - and while I accept that stats as provided by ESPN can be very misleading, Barritt looks really crap in attack. He looks pretty crap in attack on the pitch too. The odd sideways run, the odd yard in contact... even when he does break free he doesn't look too impressive. Remember his try against New Zealand? Decent line, but he completely failed to fix his man subsequently; it should have been Tuilagi's try, and Tuilagi did incredibly well to rescue the try for Barritt.

In contrast Hape could be relied on to make ground. He was a better offloader too. In terms of tackling, in an individual sense they were equal. The only real edge Barritt has is as an organiser and I don't think that compensates for him being comfortably the worst attacking inside centre we've had since... Erinle?

Increasingly I see Barritt as the Mouritz Botha of the backline.

 

[j'nuh]

Barritt isn't the penalty magnet that Botha was to make him such a bad international player.

I think Hape had an easy ride. It was around the time that Youngs contested Genia for best scrum-half, Ashton was a potential world XV player, Foden was probably world class, and Flood had a case for being in the top 3 fly-halves in the world. That's potentially four world class players in the back line. Hape and Tindall was the centre partnership that the others played well in spite of, not because of. In contrast, there isn't a single England back right now that is beyond a good player. No greats. Certainly no world class players at the minute. Even in style of play, Flood looks to attack and plays flat, whereas Farrell often relies on a kicking game. It gives Hape a lot more ball to work with. Also, when Tuilagi is around, why even bother using Barritt as a carrier? Tindall is nowhere near Tuilagi's standard in carrying.

Barritt, for me, is a better player than Hape because for all of Barritt's limitations, his defence is outstanding. Some may think that one outstanding trait isn't enough, but it is an important trait to have. Especially if your aim isn't to work up the field through carrying, but to ping the corners and hit the opposition hard in their own half. Having a 12 which can force tackles beyond the gain line is as good as having a 7 which can turn the ball over.

Now, if we were playing Flood/Burns, and wanted to attack from deeper, Barritt would certainly be a liability. Good thing that Twelvetrees should be an obvious pick over Barritt at this point.

 

[Peat]

They're both heavily overrated Saracens who did a job through desire but now need replacing with better players.

If players stop looking World Class, you have to ask why. You look around at what has changed in the units around them, has their role changed, and how the rest of the team is doing as well as personal factors. If you are a half-back who loves to attack the line - or a winger that loves to run lines off of midfield - then going from an inside centre who attracts defenders and gets over the advantage line to one that doesn't is a big issue. Just academically speaking, that's really obviously not ideal. The question of how much Hape was part of those guys looking really good and how much he was beneficiary should be asked.

Hape ran the ball 7.4 times a game in 2011. Barritt ran it 7.6 times a game. So Hape didn't get a lot more ball to work with. Good ball maybe, but not ball. I was lazy and didn't put up the actual stats, but Flood and Farrell both pass it a fairly equal amount of the time.

And if you only have one carrier in midfield, you've signposted where the ball is going. You've robbed yourself of a potential source of go-forwards ball. Come on, you can't believe that Tuilagi means no need for Barritt carrying, as I'm fairly sure you've advocated Twelvetrees to take the shirt. If you don't need your 12 to attack, why would you replace Barritt? But you do, and everyone knows it, which is why most people want Twelvetrees.

Hape's one on one tackling was outstanding. I'd say he probably forced as many people back as Barritt ever did.

End of the day, I don't want to sit here defending Shontayne Hape. He wasn't a great international centre, he didn't do enough things well, and I'd agree that a lot of England's success came despite those centres instead of because of them. The defenders - hah, centres, freudian slip there - could tackle and carry a little and that was it. England were very adroit at avoiding using them for going wide or scoring tries, instead relying on them to do dirty work while the others made hay. And they did that well. Castigating Johnsons or laughing at those centres will probably never go out of fashion, but for a brief period we were really good and we had a lot of backs who looked awesome. I do believe the role of Hape and Tindall in that needs to be re-examined. But that's kinda not the point.

The point is I don't think Hape was great and I've still got more time for him than Barritt because I think Barritt has done SFA in attack to date. Farrell and Twelvetrees play together - Twelvetrees looks great, we score points. Farrell and Barritt play together, not so much. Flood and Barritt play together not so much. Flood and Hape, we score points. Flood and Tuilagi, we score points... maybe Barritt has been done down by circs. If a player doesn't gel with either fly-half and both fly-halfs get performances out of other players, there is a potential problem. I am willing to have an open mind but I can only judge on evidence to date and that's all effluent. Steaming runny effluent.

And I think you're wrong about game plan as well. Nothing wrong with playing in the right parts of the field. But you have to threaten a break to force the wings to stop hanging deep, and you have to score points when you're in the right position. Hit hard you might say. Well, we don't. We simply grind away looking for penalties. Sooner or later that won't be enough, and anyone who is forcing that to be the only plan is a liability. Still, in the name of fairness, if the pack is completely and totally dominant, Barritt looks ok. I just don't think that's enough.

 

[Crapspray]

Well thank goodness Barritt's crocked then. We'll get to see just how important in defence he is. My guess is not that much; the centres weren't exactly porous against Argentina. We might never see him again in an England shirt. Tuilagi's injury exposed the need for a backup outside centre, so one of the three inside centres will have to go some time next year.

The same may (read: should) happen with Goode too. Brown and Foden are so far ahead of him this season it's laughable he should even be in the EPS, let alone starting ahead of them. A good performance from the wings and he should jettisoned. Hopefully making way for a utility player like Daly or Tait for the 23 shirt.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Well thank goodness Barritt's crocked then. We'll get to see just how important in defence he is. My guess is not that much; the centres weren't exactly porous against Argentina. We might never see him again in an England shirt. Tuilagi's injury exposed the need for a backup outside centre, so one of the three inside centres will have to go some time next year.

The same may (read: should) happen with Goode too. Brown and Foden are so far ahead of him this season it's laughable he should even be in the EPS, let alone starting ahead of them. A good performance from the wings and he should jettisoned. Hopefully making way for a utility player like Daly or Tait for the 23 shirt.

The problem is Farrell as coach seems to love Saffacens players. Barritt should never be in an england shirt again but.......

When was the last time England actually picked the best inside centre and the best outside centre together? We have never had 12trees and tuialgi together!!!!! I can't believe that.

Every time i see a saracens game, Farrell, Barritt, Goode, Strettle or seem really poor at backs basics like 2 on 1's, long passing things that they should be masters at. I'm hoping Lancaster has seen that and forced them to do more handling drills and also drop them until they improve!

So for the AI will we see......

12trees - trinder - Club partnership could work well
12trees - eastmond - don't know if Eastmond would work at OSC?
12trees - JJ - Worked in the summer but would JJ require us to change our gameplan too much?

Eastmond - 12trees - don't know if this would work but it might?
Eastmond - JJ - Club partnership could be brilliant? But maybe light weight
Eastmond - Trinder - errr that doesn't look so good for some reason.

I havent added Burrell in as his defence positioning is a massive liability and as a saints fan i can say he is so not ready for international rugby.

 

[McTallshort]

The problem is Farrell as coach seems to love Saffacens players. Barritt should never be in an england shirt again but.......

When was the last time England actually picked the best inside centre and the best outside centre together? We have never had 12trees and tuialgi together!!!!! I can't believe that.

Every time i see a saracens game, Farrell, Barritt, Goode, Strettle or seem really poor at backs basics like 2 on 1's, long passing things that they should be masters at. I'm hoping Lancaster has seen that and forced them to do more handling drills and also drop them until they improve!

So for the AI will we see......

12trees - trinder - Club partnership could work well
12trees - eastmond - don't know if Eastmond would work at OSC?
12trees - JJ - Worked in the summer but would JJ require us to change our gameplan too much?

Eastmond - 12trees - don't know if this would work but it might?
Eastmond - JJ - Club partnership could be brilliant? But maybe light weight
Eastmond - Trinder - errr that doesn't look so good for some reason.

I havent added Burrell in as his defence positioning is a massive liability and as a saints fan i can say he is so not ready for international rugby.

Watch Tigers mate 12. Allen 13. Manu best combo England could have....If Manu wasnt injured

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't remember Allen standing out at all on the tour of SA.

 

[McTallshort]

Which one? hes only been capped twice

 

[ratsapprentice]

The most recent one... the one that Joe Launchbury and Tom Youngs were selected on the back of.

I'm not saying he isn't a good player. But particularly at this stage of England's development, and his age he would not be any more than a good stop-gap.
A potentially really good stop-gap... but a temporary selection none-the less.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Allan is a great premiership 12 made to look better by having the best 13 in the premiership on one side and a top international FH on the other side. How many tries has he scored? How many breaks? It might be the tigers style of play but he like Burrell, barritt, JTH are average players.

I was just looking at the options Lancaster has in his current EPS and Saxons squad.

 

[McTallshort]

Im not sure, we tend to discount backs who have been around a few years in favour of younger players and call this development. When we do select an olderish player like Barriett most people on here tend to show some dislike to it. We all seem to be looking out for the next Greenwood/Guscott etc and it isnt always as simple as sticking a few young lads in and hoping it works.

Its different for forwards and we happily except players in the late 20's early 30's but then forwards do tend to peak at 32.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Allen is a fantastic 12.
Never selected by England, for some reason, though. I'd be happy to see him play for England.
Twelvetrees would be my first choice, but I wouldn't object at Allen.

Ain't gonna happen, mind, but he's a quality player.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Im not sure, we tend to discount backs who have been around a few years in favour of younger players and call this development. When we do select an olderish player like Barriett most people on here tend to show some dislike to it. We all seem to be looking out for the next Greenwood/Guscott etc and it isnt always as simple as sticking a few young lads in and hoping it works.

Its different for forwards and we happily except players in the late 20's early 30's but then forwards do tend to peak at 32.

I agree to a degree but the reason we don't keep centres in as they have been below international standard.

Lets look at Barritt and Tuiagi

So Tuilagi has flaws but constantly grows each season and is not at his peak. We keep with him as our first choice and he will continue to get better.

Barritt hasn't played amazing so far and is at his peak, so we need to find a player who doesn't have a major flaw to their game that barritt has (no pace, can't pass, couldn't create anything himself).

So we keep with Tuilagi and look for a new 12, when we find one we play them together for 50 caps just like Nonu and Smith. BUT that only works if you have the right combo together who will both develop and be world class.


i'd only look at older centres if they have no flaws in their game as they should have been smoothed out by then, which is what Lancaaster has been doing with lots of positions.