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[2013 EOYT] England

The most recent one... the one that Joe Launchbury and Tom Youngs were selected on the back of.

I'm not saying he isn't a good player. But particularly at this stage of England's development, and his age he would not be any more than a good stop-gap.
A potentially really good stop-gap... but a temporary selection none-the less.

I think Allen spent most of that tour in the reserve team playing at 13. Not the greatest chance ever to shine.

I don't see his age being an issue though. Right now, we need players who will perform at 2015. Yeah, he won't be there in 2019 (probably not anyway) but that's ok, no team ever develops every player at the same time, and I think its reckless to try.

The main issue is he looks an awful lot like he's at his peak as a great club player. I wouldn't mind finding out, we should have done so by now, but I'd prefer to go with 36 who has the obvious potential to rise above.
 
They're both heavily overrated Saracens who did a job through desire but now need replacing with better players.

If players stop looking World Class, you have to ask why. You look around at what has changed in the units around them, has their role changed, and how the rest of the team is doing as well as personal factors. If you are a half-back who loves to attack the line - or a winger that loves to run lines off of midfield - then going from an inside centre who attracts defenders and gets over the advantage line to one that doesn't is a big issue. Just academically speaking, that's really obviously not ideal. The question of how much Hape was part of those guys looking really good and how much he was beneficiary should be asked.

Hape ran the ball 7.4 times a game in 2011. Barritt ran it 7.6 times a game. So Hape didn't get a lot more ball to work with. Good ball maybe, but not ball. I was lazy and didn't put up the actual stats, but Flood and Farrell both pass it a fairly equal amount of the time.

And if you only have one carrier in midfield, you've signposted where the ball is going. You've robbed yourself of a potential source of go-forwards ball. Come on, you can't believe that Tuilagi means no need for Barritt carrying, as I'm fairly sure you've advocated Twelvetrees to take the shirt. If you don't need your 12 to attack, why would you replace Barritt? But you do, and everyone knows it, which is why most people want Twelvetrees.

Hape's one on one tackling was outstanding. I'd say he probably forced as many people back as Barritt ever did.

End of the day, I don't want to sit here defending Shontayne Hape. He wasn't a great international centre, he didn't do enough things well, and I'd agree that a lot of England's success came despite those centres instead of because of them. The defenders - hah, centres, freudian slip there - could tackle and carry a little and that was it. England were very adroit at avoiding using them for going wide or scoring tries, instead relying on them to do dirty work while the others made hay. And they did that well. Castigating Johnsons or laughing at those centres will probably never go out of fashion, but for a brief period we were really good and we had a lot of backs who looked awesome. I do believe the role of Hape and Tindall in that needs to be re-examined. But that's kinda not the point.

The point is I don't think Hape was great and I've still got more time for him than Barritt because I think Barritt has done SFA in attack to date. Farrell and Twelvetrees play together - Twelvetrees looks great, we score points. Farrell and Barritt play together, not so much. Flood and Barritt play together not so much. Flood and Hape, we score points. Flood and Tuilagi, we score points... maybe Barritt has been done down by circs. If a player doesn't gel with either fly-half and both fly-halfs get performances out of other players, there is a potential problem. I am willing to have an open mind but I can only judge on evidence to date and that's all effluent. Steaming runny effluent.

And I think you're wrong about game plan as well. Nothing wrong with playing in the right parts of the field. But you have to threaten a break to force the wings to stop hanging deep, and you have to score points when you're in the right position. Hit hard you might say. Well, we don't. We simply grind away looking for penalties. Sooner or later that won't be enough, and anyone who is forcing that to be the only plan is a liability. Still, in the name of fairness, if the pack is completely and totally dominant, Barritt looks ok. I just don't think that's enough.
I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not a fan of Barritt and I certainly don't want him starting for England. I'm eager to see Twelvetrees first. Whatever skill he isn't the best at out of the 12s in England, he's probably the second best. He's the best carrier, the most physical, the best in the breakdown, the best rucker (he has all the skills, but is slightly underweight, for a good flanker), the best in-game kicker, the second best defender (Barritt), the second best in running lines (Eastmond first) and a great support player. He's also a PK kicking option, and if he can develop this side of his game, he has the strength to be a good long-distance kicking option. He does have one or two "whoops" moments. A miss-pass which puts a winger under pressure for example. But he looks the real deal IMHO.

However, although I don't like this style of play and am eager to move away from it, the Sarries-style of winning territory first and playing for penalties does lend itself to Barritt being a useful player. If it's something we want to revert to as an option when the seams fall apart on another game plan, then fair enough I guess.

Good post though. Hape's probably not as bad as I think I remember him being, and Tindall certainly got more blame than he was probably worth. Both him and Easter looked immediately better after playing their last game for England - sometimes you have to wonder whether the England set-up gets the best out of certain players.
 
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My Engloand XV

1. Corbs
2. Tom Youngs ( Hartley On the Bench)
3. Cole ( Wilson come on around 50 Mins to prove himself)
4. Launchbury (Back to form since injury)
5. Parling ( Maybe Attwood in Later Tests Dont really know the situation with the injury)
6. Robshaw ( Good Start to The season)
7. Kvesic (Needs a Start since Great form last season and summer internationals)
8. Morgan ( Vunipola as an impact sub see how he does and then yake it from there]
9. Ben Youngs ( Care hasnt been amazing so i'd keep it the same)
10. Farrell ( Good Form So Far and Burns can Be given Half an hour to have another lookat)
11. Marland Yarde ( No explanation needed)
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joesph ( I went with joesph because he's played with twelvetrees and it didnt go badly)
14. Wade (I don't ashton is as good as him. And also He has got an 80% tackle success rate so the myth about him not tackling isnt true this season)
15. Foden ( Just Because I Prefer him to Brown and feel he is a better counter attacker)
 
Imagine how destructive a
6. Binny, 7. Kvesic, 8. Dickinson
Backrow would be
 
Throw in a Johnson-era Haskell on the openside and let slip the dogs of war.
 
That would certainly bulk it up, but as an actual viable backrow.... I'd actually really love to see Binny, Kvesic and Dickinson play together, think they could dominate.
 
With Morgan being so ineffective for Glos, and the reverse being true of Billy could we realistically see Morgan ommited from the 23?

The positive from the Glos pack has been Kvesic, who has been good considering the situation he is finding himself in.
He's so wiley at the breakdown, always slowing the ball down and a huge motor.
 
Billy has to be the favourite now. I could see Morgan retaining the shirt- Gloucester's pack have been awful whereas Billy has been behind the strongest pack in the premiership, so I think Lancaster's view in the training camp will be the most decisive. Sadly, we probably won't get to see it.
 
Billy has to be the favourite now. I could see Morgan retaining the shirt- Gloucester's pack have been awful whereas Billy has been behind the strongest pack in the premiership, so I think Lancaster's view in the training camp will be the most decisive. Sadly, we probably won't get to see it.

The whole Glaws team has been very ordinary am surprised so many are being pushed on here for England places. The premiership looks very competitive so far only really sarries above and Worcester below the rest is a tidy mix.

PS Anyone for Geraghty ......
 
Glaws have an awful tight five. Everyone in it has disqualified themselves. Everyone behind should be considered with this in mind.
 
What Peat said. (Although I think the Glos front 5 will improve. Knight, Edmonds, Murphy and Hudson are probably not fit/match fit yet. Savage hopelessly out of form. Harden and Dawidiuk just not up to it imo. Wood still banned too.)

On the England hopefuls, you can tell between the players that are doing relatively well but are struggling partly because of their team (Twelvetrees), and the players who are just in bad form (Morgan, Burns).

I cannot decide what category Kvesic belongs in, but he's certainly not up there with Burger/Braid atm.

EDIT: my team now:

1. Corbisiero
2. Youngs
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola (if Morgan gets selected here, it would be proof that form counts for nothing when England is involved...)
9. Dickson
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. EDIT2: Eastmond (reasoning below)
14. Wade
15. Foden/Brown (ip dip doo...)

16. Hartley
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Parling
20. Kvesic
21. Care
22. Burns
23. Eastmond
 
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What Peat said. (Although I think the Glos front 5 will improve. Knight, Edmonds, Murphy and Hudson are probably not fit/match fit yet. Savage hopelessly out of form. Harden and Dawidiuk just not up to it imo. Wood still banned too.)

On the England hopefuls, you can tell between the players that are doing relatively well but are struggling partly because of their team (Twelvetrees), and the players who are just in bad form (Morgan, Burns).

I cannot decide what category Kvesic belongs in, but he's certainly not up there with Burger/Braid atm.

EDIT: my team now:

1. Corbisiero
2. Youngs
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola (if Morgan gets selected here, it would be proof that form counts for nothing when England is involved...)
9. Dickson
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. ???
14. Wade
15. Foden/Brown (ip dip doo...)

16. Hartley
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Parling
20. Kvesic
21. Care
22. Burns
23. Eastmond


I like this team, not too sure like you who i'd really want at 13. My guess is who ever does better in training between Tomkins and JJ....although i could see Lancaster doing his position shift and playering eastmond and 12trees together in some fashion!
 
I can't see Eastmond playing 13, and I don't know whether a Kyle/JJ midfield has the right balance.
Particularly behind a non-dominant pack.
 
I think Parling being dropped is unlikely. He's done nothing to deserve being dropped (but then neither has Launchbury) and was one of the quiet success stories of the Lions tour. I think a Parling/Atwood starting second row is more likely with Launchbury on the bench to come on for the last twenty and run himself into the ground.

Other than that I'd agree with that team on form. I don't know whether it is a rotation policy or not but Dickson seems to be keeping Fotu out of the Saints starting team at the moment and based on that you' have to say he's the best English scrum half so far.
 
Ben Youngs isn't really playing well.
Danny Care is playing ok in a team going backwards.
Dickson is playing pretty well in a dominant team.
 
Most of the the half-backs seem a bit naff at the moment. Only Farrell and Dickson look good, and both of them are enjoying armchair rides.
 
Ford is doing very well, and Bath don't quite have the consistant pack dominance of Sarries and Saint.

As far as nines go you're right though. Though just because he's having a good ride doesn't mean Dickson isn't playing well, its more that the competition have a disadvantage.
 
Ford is doing very well, and Bath don't quite have the consistant pack dominance of Sarries and Saint.

I thought Ford was very bad against Sale. Very similar to his performances with the Tigers. He ignored gaps, made silly mistakes, and was weak in defence. He's shown his talent far more this season -or rather has had the chance to- but has also shown his inconsistency remains.

As far as nines go you're right though. Though just because he's having a good ride doesn't mean Dickson isn't playing well, its more that the competition have a disadvantage.

But it has to be factored into selection. Care has been behind a terrible pack (as the previously-mentioned Gloucester players have) so won't have been delivered cleaner ball from rucks against a retreating defence. Dickson has had the opposite. Youngs has had something in between and looked average.

Personally, I'd prefer the worse of Care and Youngs to be dropped for Dickson. He offers a different approach to bring on; similar to Burns and Farrell. With England's forwards having good engines, it'd be interesting to see an increase in tempo late in games to push the opposition. Think Burns on for Farrell, Dickson on for Youngs, and Eastmond on for Twelvetrees.
 
Most of the the half-backs seem a bit naff at the moment. Only Farrell and Dickson look good, and both of them are enjoying armchair rides.
Pretty much.

But I have tactical reasons in favour of Dickson too. He's never going to be that world class player that Care and Youngs have/have had the potential to be (which is why I think these two came straight back into the side after the 2012 6N). Unlike Care and Youngs, he's never really shown that flashy side. Okay, he won't hit the blindside and make 40 meters or tap and make two sidesteps for a try every 15 games. I just like Dickson because he's good at the basic skills a scrum-half should have, and that in turn helps pack and back line.

Youngs in particular I'm really not a fan of. We keep waiting for him to turn back to his 2010 variant and it's just not happening. He snipes a lot less effectively, kicks away more possession, but worst of all just waits around at every ruck. At least Phillips marshals his pack and can get his pack motoring. Youngs is the worst of two worlds: doesn't pass like someone who can get the backline moving and doesn't order his pack around to get forwards rumbling ahead. This is presumably why he now box kicks more often; he just doesn't have anything else he can do.

I think Parling being dropped is unlikely. He's done nothing to deserve being dropped (but then neither has Launchbury) and was one of the quiet success stories of the Lions tour. I think a Parling/Atwood starting second row is more likely with Launchbury on the bench to come on for the last twenty and run himself into the ground.

Other than that I'd agree with that team on form. I don't know whether it is a rotation policy or not but Dickson seems to be keeping Fotu out of the Saints starting team at the moment and based on that you' have to say he's the best English scrum half so far.
I just want Attwood in there badly, and since he fills the lineout role, I thought Parling's immediate usefulness diminishes a little.

Rotation could be handy in the second row. In an ideal world, all three locks will have had plenty of time by the WC so we can ask, "Which are the two best locks?" rather than "Can't pick Attwood, not had enough games."
 
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I wouldn't say Youngs has that much of a disadvantage, he just isn't playing very well.
It doesn't help that he isn't my favorite when he is playing well though!

Danny Care certainly is at a disadvantage.

I would have Dickson on the bench regardless though, will the directive of just passing the ball to the FR.

EDIT: Basically, I agree with what j'nuh just said.
 
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