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2013 British and Irish Lions

Peat said:
Calling someone a cheat isn't really trying to change their mind...

Hartley's a window licker; can't say I wish him any good now, he simply lurches from disaster to disaster without offering too much on an international rugby field.

edit: That's regardless of whether he did it or not, I shall wait to see before condemning him on that score. He's an oxygen thief regardless.
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Good point. Whatever his form has ever been like for Saints, I've never felt as if England would miss him. I definitely preferred Thompson under MJ.
 
dullonien said:
Surely Barnes was the one in the best position to decide whether what Hartley said was aimed at him or not. He obviously believed it was, so I'm not sure what other evidence could surface to change that.
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I accept all that - but refs have got it wrong before - Barnes could be stood next to Scarlett Johansson and think he saw a 90 year old with small ***s. Would you be that surprised if it turned out Hartley was indeed actually talking to Youngs and Barnes got the wrong end of the stick?

The weight of probability says Barnes got it right, but I'd like to see for myself, and hear the citing panel before I unreservedly agree it happened.
 
Peat said:
I accept all that - but refs have got it wrong before - Barnes could be stood next to Scarlett Johansson and think he saw a 90 year old with small ***s. Would you be that surprised if it turned out Hartley was indeed actually talking to Youngs and Barnes got the wrong end of the stick?

The weight of probability says Barnes got it right, but I'd like to see for myself, and hear the citing panel before I unreservedly agree it happened.
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What I'm questioning is what extra evidence can actually be put forward? People don't always directly face the person they are verbally abusing, so where Hartley was looking doesn't 100% prove innocence, or guilt. Other player's testimonies? Is there really any way they could be sure who the comment was directed towards?

It's one of those things that is difficult to prove one way or the other. However a person generally knows in the moment whether a comment is directed their way or not.
 
How out of his mind would he have to be to actually accuse the ref of cheating though...?
 
ratsapprentice said:
How out of his mind would he have to be to actually accuse the ref of cheating though...?
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He hasn't exactly got a good track record of keeping his temper under control. If he genuinely thought the decision on the restart was wrong, which was then compounded with the penalty at the scrum I can understand him being annoyed, I think he just took it a little far. I doubt he genuinely thought the ref was cheating, but in the heat of the moment these crazy thoughts can pop into your head, and whilst most can keep their cool, Hartley doesn't seem to be able to.
 
He's said it was directed at Youngs. That seems far more likely to me than him accusing the ref of cheating.
That's probably what it will come down to, which the panel believe.
 
Dull - I'm not arguing - but just because I can't think of it doesn't mean it isn't there
 
The point as far as I'm concerned though is that if Hartley can't be trusted to keep his head under difficult circumstances then perhaps it's for the best that he may not make the Lions tour. We really don't need to be a man down in the third test in Sydney due to a player's indiscipline for example.
 
OK first thing....Hartley had abused Barnes 5 minutes before and had been warned if he did it again action would be taken, Myler was told not to kick for touch ( everyone heard it) but he did then when Barnes said scrum a few saints players of which Hartley was one for some bizarre reason questioned very vigorously what Barnes was doing. Barnes was clearly wound up at this point and had had enough back chat so as captain Hartley should have noticed this and said to his players " lads going to give a penalty away here keep it shut till half time" but he didnt, he swore very loud right near the ref and was sent off and it was his own stupid fault and if he misses the Lions tour then tough.

Second thing...people who said he did nothing for England obviously are clueless about Rugby. Hartley is technically as good as any NH hooker and has proved it many times (Cardiff 2011 anyone) but he has a very immature side to him that has almost had him sent off for England a few times but on his day he is as good as anyone.
 
Tallshort said:
Second thing...people who said he did nothing for England obviously are clueless about Rugby. Hartley is technically as good as any NH hooker and has proved it many times (Cardiff 2011 anyone) but he has a very immature side to him that has almost had him sent off for England a few times but on his day he is as good as anyone.
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Except for continuously standing up in the scrum, which is beginning to leak the odd penalty, then yes he's technically sound. Unfortunately he does not seem to have the physicality to make much of an impression in the loose. Hibbard is a powerful ball carrier around the fringes. Tom Youngs shines in midfield. Rory Best is like a fourth flanker, cute at the breakdown with good continuity.

Hartley? Nothing. And if I'm wrong, how did he lose his place to a lad who still can't throw reliably?
 
Just watched again and well I have to ask if he did direct it at Youngs then
1. It might not go down well having them 2 together if that how they feel and it bad for team morale if Hartley feels that way about Youngs but
2. I can't see exactly what Youngs has done only be a part of dominant scrum?
 
If it was indeed aimed at Youngs and he misses the tour because of it, then that is just cruel. I am sure some would say it is karma.
 
Great for Ireland :p as for captaincy of Ireland I'd like to think POM but what I will say regardless of who's named officially there's a good core that will all equally take up the mantle (POM Henry Ross etc) as for Lions I've feeling Best will be the player who has a brilliant tour
 

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