2013 British and Irish Lions

[TRF_Olyy]

Thank god you posted those gifs, for a minute I thought I might get to read a thread that actually loads smoothly for once.

Haha, yeah.
What the hell do they even show?
He tackled a man that ran right by him, and then he did a props work at the lineout...?

 

[psychic duck]

I don't think there was anything incorrect said about Adam Jones tbh. I accept that he's somewhat limited in open field, but that doesn't stop him from being one of the best tightheads in world rugby, because his scrummaging is second to none. His loose work is mainly based around a good fringe defence, and rucking (I don't think the article was fair on him in this regard), although his passing is underrated, he has little problems filling in for a scrum half when required. He offers little in terms of ball carrying, and his tackling can be a little passive for his size.

There are certainly much better tightheads when it comes to loose play, but at the end of the day having Adam on the pitch can often be the difference between winning and losing when he puts the team on the front foot at the scrum and/or gains penalties.

The point I was making Dullonien, he is evolved from no use in the loose to a more than adequate player in the loose in numerous ways, he's not the most dynamic or destructive out there but has found middle ground. I don't get this post tbh, you start of disagreeing saying that it was 100% right, then you say it wasn't fair?

Haha, yeah.
What the hell do they even show?
He tackled a man that ran right by him, and then he did a props work at the lineout...?

Since you insist on acting blind ...

They are examples of defensive work which has become a noted part of his game. In the first gif the player did "not ran right by him", he had to make ground stretch out to stop a player much quicker than him, a skill simil. In the second gif he wins a turnover destroying a Scottish maul (which he did twice in that game). Which you would agree is pretty useful?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I never said he can't tackle, and never said he does no work.
The two gifs show what I'd expect of any international prop, I'm not going to act blown over just cause he's Welsh, sorry.

 

[psychic duck]

I never said he can't tackle, and never said he does no work.
The two gifs show what I'd expect of any international prop, I'm not going to act blown over just cause he's Welsh, sorry.

The first GIF was an example of the fringe defence, it wasn't exceptional but still good, but the point I was trying to make originally that he has moved on from the days of just being a scrummager. In Wales match against Samoa, it was the replacement for Adam Jones who missed the tackle that led to the first try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnex8fd_Ky8 , I remember the Bok prop missing the same fringe defence tackle in the All Blacks game this year as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp_lXDZmkLE . So considering that not every prop can do it as well, I would say the tackling has gone from a lack of to above average nowadays for Adam in terms of numbers made.

As for the second GIF, you expect your prop to win a turnover at every maul? That's high standards you set for all your props. Even if a player who is known for turnovers like Gethin Jenkins wins one, then it is seen worthy of praise. Not just something every international prop does, otherwise people wouldn't praise the likes of Gethin for getting turnovers, and something you yourself in fact have praised Dank Hole for doing.

As for your point about Welsh, are you just not giving credit to Jones' work as you really want your favourite Dank Hole to come in and are still feeling a bit sore from the pummelling he's given the English scrum these last 2 years?

 

[Thingimubob]

I never said he can't tackle, and never said he does no work.
The two gifs show what I'd expect of any international prop, I'm not going to act blown over just cause he's Welsh, sorry.

Exactly,which is why I think the video is a little harsh by him. Like others have said, he's by far not the most dynamic tighthead out there, but he'll do a good job for you in his workrate, all while destroying the opposition in the scrum.

Also was I the only one who found it hilarious when he said that Benn Robinson was the best loosehead in the world in 2008? (also wasn't the match they showed in 2010 not 2008?)

 

[munstermuffin]

Off the topic some of Lions training and off field gear is nice stuff. How come it doesn't go on sale and why don't. They add the HSBC to gear on retail it adds to it

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The first GIF was an example of the fringe defence, it wasn't exceptional but still good, but the point I was trying to make originally that he has moved on from the days of just being a scrummager. In Wales match against Samoa, it was the replacement for Adam Jones who missed the tackle that led to the first try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnex8fd_Ky8 , I remember the Bok prop missing the same fringe defence tackle in the All Blacks game this year as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp_lXDZmkLE . So considering that not every prop can do it as well, I would say the tackling has gone from a lack of to above average nowadays for Adam in terms of numbers made.

As for the second GIF, you expect your prop to win a turnover at every maul? That's high standards you set for all your props. Even if a player who is known for turnovers like Gethin Jenkins wins one, then it is seen worthy of praise. Not just something every international prop does, otherwise people wouldn't praise the likes of Gethin for getting turnovers, and something you yourself in fact have praised Dank Hole for doing.

As for your point about Welsh, are you just not giving credit to Jones' work as you really want your favourite Dank Hole to come in and are still feeling a bit sore from the pummelling he's given the English scrum these last 2 years?

 

[dullonien]

The point I was making Dullonien, he is evolved from no use in the loose to a more than adequate player in the loose in numerous ways, he's not the most dynamic or destructive out there but has found middle ground. I don't get this post tbh, you start of disagreeing saying that it was 100% right, then you say it wasn't fair?

Yeah, ok my post should have read: 'there was little wrong in what was said'.......

I fully agree though, he's developed as a player in the loose. He was never as bad as is sometimes made out though, I think people's opinions of him in his early days are clouded by Hansen pulling him off after 30min every match, which was extremely ott imo.

However the reality is that he is not picked for his work in the loose, and there's nothing really wrong with people saying as much. But it's all about balance, and I've said this time and again. Put out a pack full of Croft's and Cole's and you will struggle in the tight, with the opposite being true as well. With loosheads like Healy and Jenkins available who are great in the loose a little further out, Adam Jones can balance that by offering good fringe defence and someone who offers support over the ruck instead of going in for the jackle etc.

 

[j'nuh]

^ Exactly. People talk about players having a lack of ability in the loose as if it's such a bad thing. But as long as they contribute a lot in the tight (by which I mean eg tight carries, ruck protection etc.) then that's fine and they will be bringing something to the team. It's a shame that the stats seem to emphasise loose work. There's not much on how many times a player hits a ruck, or how fast and clean a player can offer their tight carries, or how many times and with what force they hit an opposing tight carrier. Stats will say that a loose carrier which catches the ball in the backline 5m behind the gainline and carries for 4m, giving a 1m loss, carries better than a tight carrier who recycles from the base of the ruck for half-a-meter gain, setting up cleaner ball for the scrum-half and perhaps extending the openside.

 

[dullonien]

I think this was one of the big issues with the English pack against Wales. Looking through the pack, just about all of them are more than capable in the loose (Youngs, Cole, Parling, Wood and Croft in particular), but they were possible lacking a little in the tight with Robshaw the main one in that regard. Compare that to Wales who had a good balance: Jenkins, Warburton, Tipuric and Faletau in the loose, Hibbard, Adam and Ian Evans in the tight, with Alun-Wyn a mixture of both.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

There does have to be a balance in the pack but i think Cole training with Jones will really push him on as he hasn't had any real compation for england (i realise he has pushed out Castro at tigers which is no mean task).


I think which ever of them offer the most destructive scrum will start as we will look to our LH and 1 lock and the backrow to do the loose work.

 

[McTallshort]

I think this was one of the big issues with the English pack against Wales. Looking through the pack, just about all of them are more than capable in the loose (Youngs, Cole, Parling, Wood and Croft in particular), but they were possible lacking a little in the tight with Robshaw the main one in that regard. Compare that to Wales who had a good balance: Jenkins, Warburton, Tipuric and Faletau in the loose, Hibbard, Adam and Ian Evans in the tight, with Alun-Wyn a mixture of both.

think thats a good point, one thing a successful England team always had was a few meatheads like Johnson, Dooley, Teague, Richards, Hill and Bayfield. This current crop have the makings of that with Lawes, Launchbury and Corbs but the pack is one built for loose work more than grind which is surprising given Rowntree is forwards coach but not surprising when you look at the type of backrow player Lancaster was.

 

[Peat]

I think this was one of the big issues with the English pack against Wales. Looking through the pack, just about all of them are more than capable in the loose (Youngs, Cole, Parling, Wood and Croft in particular), but they were possible lacking a little in the tight with Robshaw the main one in that regard. Compare that to Wales who had a good balance: Jenkins, Warburton, Tipuric and Faletau in the loose, Hibbard, Adam and Ian Evans in the tight, with Alun-Wyn a mixture of both.

Wouldn't read too much into that game. After all, it was even enough the year before. The two big issues were the scrum - Marler instead of Corbs is a huge issue for us - and a lack of line-breaking ball carrying - Morgan instead of Wood, and that's a loose issue more than a tight one. Those issues will tire out and demoralise a pack.

And, to answer j'nuh's point, a lack of ability in the loose is a big thing. Loose play isn't the be all and end all, but really you want forwards that are at least adequate at both - such as Dan Cole, such as Gethin Jenkins, such as Toby Faletau etc.etc.

The last time this argument came up - different board - I actually sat down and watched Adam Jones, exclusively tracking him for the first half against Ireland. I greatly respect his work in the scrum and there is no doubt that he's a very powerful and effective man at close quarters when play does come near him. But his work rate wasn't much by the standards of a modern prop, it really wasn't, and I was shocked at the number of rucks where he arrived to lean on once the ball was already won. That's only one half of rugby, it's not a complete argument, but it did nothing to dispel me of my belief that Adam Jones does not offer a huge amount outside of the scrum.

 

[j'nuh]

I disagree Peat. Rugby union is supposed to be a specialist game. It helps, but 7s don't generally have to be big-hitting gainline stoppers because they'll aim to read the play to not have to be sucked into making a tackle and will instead aim to be a part of the breakdown. The reason 6s and sometimes 8s and locks make such a large number of tackles, is that they look for them. They'll stand in positions in the defensive line where they can make these tackles. It isn't a case of that others couldn't be as good as them at doing it, it's that they specialise to do that role. Jones may not look for work in the loose, but that's fine because as long as he stands in position in the tight, he will push others out into the loose and both players can do the work that they are specialised towards.

 

[Big Ewis]

http://www.jonnywilkinson.com/news/jonny-wilkinson-willing-and-ready-to-answer-lions-tour-sos-call

man his humility gets down right silly at times, you've got to love it:
"If I can physically front up to being there if there is an injury, then great. If not, they're not losing much."

yeh Jonny, I guess you're right, they'll just only be missing the guy who's just scored THE LAST 200 POINTS OF THE WINNING EUROPEAN CUP SIDE...not to mention fantastic in-game kicking and ubiquitous defense....

He's so humble, I bet he'd get really upset and start crying if he read this comment.

 

[psychic duck]

And, to answer j'nuh's point, a lack of ability in the loose is a big thing. Loose play isn't the be all and end all, but really you want forwards that are at least adequate at both - such as Dan Cole, such as Gethin Jenkins, such as Toby Faletau etc.etc.

The last time this argument came up - different board - I actually sat down and watched Adam Jones, exclusively tracking him for the first half against Ireland. I greatly respect his work in the scrum and there is no doubt that he's a very powerful and effective man at close quarters when play does come near him. But his work rate wasn't much by the standards of a modern prop, it really wasn't, and I was shocked at the number of rucks where he arrived to lean on once the ball was already won. That's only one half of rugby, it's not a complete argument, but it did nothing to dispel me of my belief that Adam Jones does not offer a huge amount outside of the scrum.

The point is that Adam Jones has developed to be more than adequate to combine with the scrum work. I'm not saying he is the best, and of course he is not picked for the loose play, but he certainly his work certainly isn't non existent as that article suggested and Gatland has changed him to work well in defence.

According to the stats he made 34 tackles in the 6 Nations. For comparison, Cole made 35, Ross made 24 and Mas made 20. So the stats back up that despite not being naturally dynamic like a Cencus Johnston for example, he is up to standard with his fellow scrummaging props and has managed to find a role that has seen him become adequate in the loose alongside his main work scrummaging. He doesn't do a huge amount as you say, but it is adequate.

The Scotland and England games his work rate was better. And Peat, that "leaning" which you say to suggests a poor work rate is to protect the scrum half and stop something like this happening.

 

[Peat]

PD, there's a difference between standing in position to protect the scrum-half and just flopping onto a won ruck, I know what it is, and there was far too much of the latter. Its not poor work rate (well it ends up being it but its not the cause), its a simple lack of speed. He gets up too late from one ruck and does not end up at the next one in time. Frequently he's lagging behind play when the ball is kicked as well.

That said, I'd agree that what the Australians have said is wrong and that it does not prevent Jones from being a test level player. Its just a weakness, most test players have weaknesses. Although that is a fine tackle count, kudos to him for that - he is very effective around the fringes.

However, should the game open up - and here is where you're wrong j'nuh - there is a very good chance that Jones will find himself behind play, or having to take up a position in the defensive line he lacks the pace for. Test match rugby does not allow a player to specialize in one task and one task only because the pace of the game means he will have to accomplish other tasks regularly. You still pick specialists, but if they can't patch holes in the defensive line wide out they're a weakness, and if they can't take a pass, see an overlap and then give it they're a weakness, and a few more other things besides. As mentioned, most test players have weaknesses, but really, by and large, people only survive with Adam Jones' level of loose play because there are no other options. Jones is a freakish scrummager, so he'd have a fair chance of surviving anyway, as he has for Lions tour selection, but based on scrummaging alone I'd have brought Mike Ross along - not there, and we all know why. Is Jones better in the loose than Ross? Not really if you ask me.

 

[big ginger 8]

The locks part of the g&g rugby blog.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/lions-threats-and-how-to-counter-locks-and-lineout/

Don't know why he excluded Evans.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can't help but feel these are written/recorded by someone who doesn't watch NH rugby apart from maybe 6N highlights.

Also: "Alan" Wyn Jones :lol:

 

[big ginger 8]

Can't help but feel these are written/recorded by someone who doesn't watch NH rugby apart from maybe 6N highlights.

Also: "Alan" Wyn Jones :lol:

Yeah there's a debate about how to write his name in the comments.