World Political Debate Team

[Ripper]

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hum sorry if i shoked you, but you might not have understood what i said.
i know what is the nazi horror (i've seen many reports showing it, i know they were burning some 11 000 persons a day in the only auschwitz !!!). but i said i was fed up them crying all the time they are still persecuted ... i will never forget what nazism is and what ultra nationalism is. but jews are complaining of a stuff they are doing (not as horrible i agree). saying jews, i'm wrong, that's truth , its israelis ... but most of them are closely linked with jews that lived the holocaust ! at least hitler killed them 'cause they were jews and not israelis, and who's fighting against the palestinians ? -> the israelian jews !!! so you can say that jews are complaining of something they were victim 60 years ago and they are doing now. what a good lesson given by history but forgot 2 generations after.
and i'm not racist. i'm working with a muslim girl so i can have a muslim's opinion on whats going on !!! i'm just trying to analyse everything (and i might be wrong), i'm not ******** on everyone !!!
[/b]

Wait, hold the press.

Are you comparing the attempted extermination of every Jew by Nazi Germany to Israel?

Jesus f***ing Christ....
[/b][/quote]

what areyou f****** saying ??? did you see 11 000 palestinians die a day ??? i was not comparing the israelian war with the holocaust (the only thing worth than that was the WW1) but the fact israelians are complaining for the holocaust and at the same time massacring palestinians. Ripper can you read the texts and do an effort to understand ppl's point of view before saying **** please. i didn't say agree i said UNDERSTAND A POINT OF VIEW !!!
[/b][/quote]

Why should I understand your f***ed up point of view? Under Hitler (with the help of the French), 6 million Jews were killed.

Since 1948 : http://mondediplo.com/focus/mideast/a2369

Had the Palestinian state been proclaimed on 4 May 1999, it would have had a population of 3.05 million. Together with the 970,000 Palestinian citizens of Israel, that makes 4 million Palestinians (out of the total world population of 8 million) living within the territory of the former British mandate. This means that, despite the mass exodus of 1948 and 1967, the Palestinian population has tripled in 50 years (from 1.36 million in 1948).[/b]

There is no comparison, just the usual European Anti-Jew bullshit.

And maybe you should try a different point of view, maybe something like "If they stopped sending suicide bombers to kill Woman and Children in crowded cafe's or kidnapping Soliders and shielding terrorists, maybe Israel would leave them alone?"

As I posted in the North Korea thread :

has plummeted from $1,493 in 1999, before the intifada broke out, to an estimated $904 this year. The poverty rate has soared from 20 percent in 1999 to 54 percent. Unemployment is approximately 28 percent. [/b]

The first 20 years of occupation have brought about a pronounced improvement in the standard of living of the Palestinians. Private consumption per capita rose during 1969-1986 at an overall rate of 5% per annum. 69 This is evidenced by economic indicators, such as increase and improvement of quality of the food consumed; housing conditions; ownership of private cars, refrigerators, television sets, cooking appliances, sewing machines, etc. 70 According to the World Bank Report, 95% of the Households in Gaza had running water and 100% had electricity (compared with 3 percent for water and 14% for electricity in 1974). This does not relate to the disadvantaged refugee camps. However, the quality of water in Gaza is far from satisfactory and electric shortcuts occur all too often. In the West Bank 79% of the households have running water and 75% - electricity, compared with 24% with water and 46% with electricity in 1974. 71 [/b]

 

[DonBilly]

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I was wondering what would happen if Celts claim that Britain should be gave back to them because 2000 years ago prior to the Roman and Barbarian invasion this land was theirs?

What would happened if the Indians asked that the non indian people living in north America should leave because 2000 years ago all this land was theirs?

After all zionism was unfortunately helped by what happened in Europe during WWII.
[/b]

Well, unfortnately by Celts, you are reffering to the peoples of Britain, I presume? Celt is a very loose term. The Romans came and left and basically things went back. So they already have their land back. The indians in North America, could claim what they wanted back, and have a right to do so. They do, however, have huge chunks of land scattered throughout America that are technically independant from the US. So, if somehow you were trying to show that the Jews claims to Israel are nulified by the example of other "similar" scenarios, you failed. But please do try again.

And...just because something seems ridiculous does not mean it's not true and/or valid. It might seem ridiculous to claim a 2000 year repramation (sp) but it doesn't mean it's wrong.
[/b][/quote]

O'Rothlain, let's keep cool. My point was not to nullify any claim, my point was that asking for a piece of land your ancesters occupied 2000 years ago is not something that one can think that it will be positively answered. My point was that the holocaust objectively helped the zionism to achieve their goal. The first step was the Balfour declaration which was made prior to what happened in Europe during WWII.

 

[DonBilly]

Why should I understand your f***ed up point of view? Under Hitler (with the help of the French), 6 million Jews were killed. [/b]

Well you know France was then occupied by the German and Italian armies. Moreover the Vichy government has never been elected by the French people (not like the Nazi party in Germany in 1933) so I wonder why you said with the "help of the French". I don't think that the 40 million French living at that time were guilty of the collaboration of the Vichy administration. I am no saying that they were all with the Résistance either, they were just trying to survive and most of them although wishing a victory of the allied forces remained rather neutral.

 

[O'Rothlain]

So, at what point do we nulify the Tibeten monks claim to their homeland? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? At what point is it "tough luck, it's in the past, and because you didn't claim your land back immediately your claim no longer exists?"

 

[sanzar]

So, at what point do we nulify the Tibeten monks claim to their homeland? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? At what point is it "tough luck, it's in the past, and because you didn't claim your land back immediately your claim no longer exists?"
[/b]

Those claims never disappear, but they're never straightforward either... The Aboriginal's claim for land rights in Australia is possibly the most valid of any land claim (carbon dating puts them here for over 40,000 years), but nevertheless we're mostly just telling em "stiff **** it's in the past". They won a couple key decision's here and there (like the recent land ***le claim over Perth), but nothing them gives them any real power over what little land they are given (and they only get it if it can't be mined or as a symbolic gesture).

The Tibetan's claim is a good point and they deserve to have their country back, but at the same time the Chinese claim the land was once their's before anyway, and that therefore they were simply taking back what they'd lost... Then of course there's Taiwan, the Chinese argue they should be able to invade and take back Taiwan, as it was only created as a proxy state for Chang Kaishek after the communist revolution (and was recognised as being the head of China by the UN untill several decades after WWII)? At the same time though, the Taiwanese would probably argue that 4000 years ago before the unifaction of China, that they were their own country anyway...

In conclusion, regarding your final point, the question could equally be posed "how long do a people have to live in a place before they can call it home?" The Chinese claim that Tibet was once there's anyway, but surely the Tibetan's had the land long enough to claim it was there's... Taiwan is now a legitimate country, and regardless of the nature of its creation, it's hard to say that the people living there shouldn't have any say it what happens to the place.

 

[DonBilly]

So, at what point do we nulify the Tibeten monks claim to their homeland? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? At what point is it "tough luck, it's in the past, and because you didn't claim your land back immediately your claim no longer exists?"
[/b]

I don't know if there's a general rule anyway. Let's take Kosovo example whose 90% inhabitants are ethnically Albanian. Historicaly this land was Serbian and is still officially part of Serbia. During the Otoman colonisation of the Balkan the Albanian who were alied with the turks started to immigrate in this territory. Nowadays they are the vast majority. The Serbs who ruled this territory want to keep it for historical reason, their nation is supposed to have been founded there. They didn't respect at all the fredom of the Albanian and terrorised them up to a point that they rebelled and with the help of the Nato they now rule this land which is lekely to become independent an may merge in with Albania. What's your view about the Serbs? That's likely that they won't never accept that this land ceomes Albanian although inhabited largely by Albanian people.

 

[Gulli]

countries all over the world have been invaded by all sorts of different people for thousands of years. no one nationality or race has the right to any land because to be perfectly honest no one alive today has the slightest idea who had it first.
wars and confrontation over land will never end because there will always be someone who wants more and isn't content with what they have

 

[tituslechmakus]

countries all over the world have been invaded by all sorts of different people for thousands of years. no one nationality or race has the right to any land because to be perfectly honest no one alive today has the slightest idea who had it first.
wars and confrontation over land will never end because there will always be someone who wants more and isn't content with what they have
[/b]

so to sum all this, palestinians have the rights to defend their territory, where isreal has the right to attack it !!! on the contrary to US attack over irak ...

and ripper, are you dumb ??? you did not even try to UNDERSTAND my point of view. in what you say, you did not AGREE with it, and it looks like you did not even read it, saying what i say will always be crap, which is very embarassing in a discussion ... how could i speak with you if you don't even listen to what others say. useless to have a talk with you.

 

[Gulli]

thats wasn't what i said at all, try reading other peoples posts before you accuse people of not reading yours!

i said, no one has the 'right' to fight over land because its not their's

 

[tituslechmakus]

thats wasn't what i said at all, try reading other peoples posts before you accuse people of not reading yours!

i said, no one has the 'right' to fight over land because its not their's
[/b]

hum it seems you don't know what irony is ...

 

[Ripper]

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countries all over the world have been invaded by all sorts of different people for thousands of years. no one nationality or race has the right to any land because to be perfectly honest no one alive today has the slightest idea who had it first.
wars and confrontation over land will never end because there will always be someone who wants more and isn't content with what they have
[/b]

so to sum all this, palestinians have the rights to defend their territory, where isreal has the right to attack it !!! on the contrary to US attack over irak ...

and ripper, are you dumb ??? you did not even try to UNDERSTAND my point of view. in what you say, you did not AGREE with it, and it looks like you did not even read it, saying what i say will always be crap, which is very embarassing in a discussion ... how could i speak with you if you don't even listen to what others say. useless to have a talk with you.
[/b][/quote]
I'm the dumb one? Its you who's saying one thing, then deny saying it later.

If you say something along the lines of "The Jews are complaining about the Holocaust 60 years ago, but are doing the same thing against Palinstineans" (Can't be arsed getting your direct quote, but thats the giste of it), are you saying that I'm not supposed to interpret that as "The Jews are doing the same thing to the Pali's as Hitler did too them 60 years ago"?

And why should I understand your point of view? In your eyes Hezzbolah are probably heroic freedom fighters, while North Korea is a bastion for peace and democracy.

 

[tituslechmakus]

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countries all over the world have been invaded by all sorts of different people for thousands of years. no one nationality or race has the right to any land because to be perfectly honest no one alive today has the slightest idea who had it first.
wars and confrontation over land will never end because there will always be someone who wants more and isn't content with what they have
[/b]

so to sum all this, palestinians have the rights to defend their territory, where isreal has the right to attack it !!! on the contrary to US attack over irak ...

and ripper, are you dumb ??? you did not even try to UNDERSTAND my point of view. in what you say, you did not AGREE with it, and it looks like you did not even read it, saying what i say will always be crap, which is very embarassing in a discussion ... how could i speak with you if you don't even listen to what others say. useless to have a talk with you.
[/b][/quote]
I'm the dumb one? Its you who's saying one thing, then deny saying it later.

If you say something along the lines of "The Jews are complaining about the Holocaust 60 years ago, but are doing the same thing against Palinstineans" (Can't be arsed getting your direct quote, but thats the giste of it), are you saying that I'm not supposed to interpret that as "The Jews are doing the same thing to the Pali's as Hitler did too them 60 years ago"?

And why should I understand your point of view? In your eyes Hezzbolah are probably heroic freedom fighters, while North Korea is a bastion for peace and democracy.
[/b][/quote]

and i was right to call you so. hezzbollah are freedom fighters like the us army !!! didn't you know that ??... i'm fed up with these topic and dumb ppl that don't want to accept something. you still did not try to understand what i say and still do not understand what is the difference between agree and understand.

sorry mates but i won't reply anymore on this topic as some ppl are as stubborn as a mule, and i get fed up to be obliged to justify myself every time i give my point of view.

 

[Gulli]

if you cant justify your point of view then why say anything?

 

[O'Rothlain]

Hezzbolah are freedom fighters like I'm the Pope.

God bless you my child. Ahhhhhh![/b]

 

[sanzar]

Ah the good ol pope! Representing a powerful and oppressive establishment in the name of a man who tried to tear things like that down.
Oh the Irony that is the Catholic Church.

 

[Ripper]

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<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
countries all over the world have been invaded by all sorts of different people for thousands of years. no one nationality or race has the right to any land because to be perfectly honest no one alive today has the slightest idea who had it first.
wars and confrontation over land will never end because there will always be someone who wants more and isn't content with what they have
[/b]

so to sum all this, palestinians have the rights to defend their territory, where isreal has the right to attack it !!! on the contrary to US attack over irak ...

and ripper, are you dumb ??? you did not even try to UNDERSTAND my point of view. in what you say, you did not AGREE with it, and it looks like you did not even read it, saying what i say will always be crap, which is very embarassing in a discussion ... how could i speak with you if you don't even listen to what others say. useless to have a talk with you.
[/b][/quote]
I'm the dumb one? Its you who's saying one thing, then deny saying it later.

If you say something along the lines of "The Jews are complaining about the Holocaust 60 years ago, but are doing the same thing against Palinstineans" (Can't be arsed getting your direct quote, but thats the giste of it), are you saying that I'm not supposed to interpret that as "The Jews are doing the same thing to the Pali's as Hitler did too them 60 years ago"?

And why should I understand your point of view? In your eyes Hezzbolah are probably heroic freedom fighters, while North Korea is a bastion for peace and democracy.
[/b][/quote]

and i was right to call you so. hezzbollah are freedom fighters like the us army !!! didn't you know that ??... i'm fed up with these topic and dumb ppl that don't want to accept something. you still did not try to understand what i say and still do not understand what is the difference between agree and understand.

sorry mates but i won't reply anymore on this topic as some ppl are as stubborn as a mule, and i get fed up to be obliged to justify myself every time i give my point of view.
[/b][/quote]

Here is your exact quote :

Originally posted by Frog
so you can say that jews are complaining of something they were victim 60 years ago and they are doing now. what a good lesson given by history but forgot 2 generations after.

I know you aren't posting anymore, but could you please make one last post and explain Why I am wrong to read that as you saying the Jews are doing what happened to them 60 years ago.

 

[O'Rothlain]

Yesterday I watched as the American Senate Armed Services Comitee questioned General John Abizaid (the head guy over the Middle East) over Iraq. Here is a guy (albeit a high ranking official) who is told by his country to do a job. "Gen. Abizaid, Go invaid Iraq, Capture Sadaam and set up a democracy." While this guy has the power to tell people what to do, he is in fact only following orders from the President and from our Congress. Now, he's dragged back to the US only to be downtalked by a bunch of representatives trying to make the news. Now, I'm not the biggest fan of the whole Iraq thing, ect, ect, blah, blah, blah...but I have to say that I felt bad for the guy. They were talking to him like he was a three year old.

 

[St Helens RLFC]

Damnit Sanzar, if you turn "against" to "for" one more time I swear you're getting the legdrop of doom!

 

[sanzar]

LMAO! Yeah, just mixing it up Dan. Next I'm thinking I might change it to "leading the fight for Islam!" - But then our headquarters may get carpet bombed, so maybe I won't.

 

[Ripper]

Nah. i'm running low on carpet bombs at the moment, and there an abortion doctors meeting coming up...

Would a simple sparkler bomb from my leftover Guy Fawkes stuff do?