World Political Debate Team

[St Helens RLFC]

Depending on what sort of person you are, religion can be a really good or a really bad thing. Feed it to someone fanatical and it can be very, very dangerous, feed it to someone grounded like me, who can pick and choose for themselves, then it opens up and entirely different thing altogether.

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Well when I'm the leader of Scotland (and trust me - I will be) I'll be doing several things:

Making Scotland independent (if it is not already)
Keeping all the oil and make everyone give us money for the stuff they've pinched
Banning all religion.
Banning communism, socialism and any other ideas I don't like.

 

[DonBilly]

Well when I'm the leader of Scotland (and trust me - I will be) I'll be doing several things:

Making Scotland independent (if it is not already)
Keeping all the oil and make everyone give us money for the stuff they've pinched
Banning all religion.
Banning communism, socialism and any other ideas I don't like.
[/b]

I guess what you're implying with such a statement is you aim at establishing a dictature in Scotland.

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Well, an empire yeah. With my secret police, the Gespatcho.

 

[Gulli]

Making Scotland independent (if it is not already)[/b]

you might as well be already, our country is pretty much run by bloody scots (no offence) anyway

 

[O'Rothlain]

No, if you want a dictatorship, ban education and fund a state oriented church...that's what England did to solve their problems, right? ...no offense.

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Course it's run by Scots. You lot don't have a bloody clue!

 

[Gulli]

its not us, just tony blair has issues with leadership (like hes a friggin tosser) everyone else in the country who's not in a position of power could onviously do a much better job

 

[tituslechmakus]

Course it's run by Scots. You lot don't have a bloody clue!
[/b]

scotland scotland what the f*** its ECOSSE !!!!! and i'll support you in your will of independancy when i'll get president of france !!! seriously, i went up to edinburgh twice this year (1st was to see our **** match in murrayfield, nicely won by the scotts) and i felt sad for all scotts. you look like french contaminated by english !!! you don't eat these boiled **** food and you drive like us (i had the impression of driving in france just passing the hadrian wall !!!)

religion is **** when imposed. it must remain free (and even in though it sometime is dangerous).

i'm fed up with all those **** about anti semitism. this is a non sense to me :
1) they say all these things about racism, but the only word "anti semitism" is a racist word, it means you consider jews as a race, where your not supposed to do if you are not racist !
2) all these stuffs on the holocaust and the jews are still complaining and saying they are percecuted and so on ... what the f*** it was 60 years ago ! the actual jews did not live the holocaust so why are they saying they are persecuted ! my grand mother's brother has been in the camps (he is not jew but he went to a anti nazi demonstration) and survived to it (freed by the russians in the buchenwald camp). he's not complaining all the time about this (and don't say all this **** on rememberance and that stuff, i know it)!!! the jews still complain but look at what they are doing now !!! massacring thousands of palestinian, who fight for their land !!! what a nice example of tolerance ...

 

[O'Rothlain]

Definition Time:
1. Jew
2. Israeli

Two different groups that share a religion. If we want to be "geopolitical," we must recognize this. Are there Jews in Israel? Yes. Are all Israeli's Jews? No? Do people of Jewish faith support what Israel the nation are doing? Some (maybe most). Still, you cannot treat people of faith the same as you would people of nationality. By your own admission this is wrong. This is no different than an Islamic Millitant judging all of Western Society as Christian.

Unfortunately the people of Abraham (the Jews/Hebrews/Israelites/Israelis) have been persecuted for 6,000 some odd years, historically. What happend during the Nazi occupation was abhorible.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
after all I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

-Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892â€"1984)[/b]

This summarizes why it was so horrible: so many "good" people allowed it [the holocost] to happen by not standing up for their fellow man.

Look at me, I'm an Irish-American. I stand as a reminder of what the negative effects of imperialism are. Destitution and fleeing. When my Great Great Grands came to this country, it was out of the desperate need for work/food/shelter. I still remember that. And while I believe in forgiveness, I believe that memorializing things like the Potato Famine (An Gorta Mór) should happen less we forget what has been done.

 

[tituslechmakus]

hum sorry if i shoked you, but you might not have understood what i said.
i know what is the nazi horror (i've seen many reports showing it, i know they were burning some 11 000 persons a day in the only auschwitz !!!). but i said i was fed up them crying all the time they are still persecuted ... i will never forget what nazism is and what ultra nationalism is. but jews are complaining of a stuff they are doing (not as horrible i agree). saying jews, i'm wrong, that's truth , its israelis ... but most of them are closely linked with jews that lived the holocaust ! at least hitler killed them 'cause they were jews and not israelis, and who's fighting against the palestinians ? -> the israelian jews !!! so you can say that jews are complaining of something they were victim 60 years ago and they are doing now. what a good lesson given by history but forgot 2 generations after.
and i'm not racist. i'm working with a muslim girl so i can have a muslim's opinion on whats going on !!! i'm just trying to analyse everything (and i might be wrong), i'm not ******** on everyone !!!

 

[O'Rothlain]

so you can say that jews are complaining of something they were victim 60 years ago and they are doing now. what a good lesson given by history but forgot 2 generations after. [/b]

No, what the Israeli Jews are complaining about is what happend in 80AD. They were kicked out of their homeland by the Roman Empire...forced to migrate throughout Europe. It may be odd, but what happend in 1946 was the result of close to 1900 years of waiting. Did the world move on? Yes. But the home of the jewish people (historically, traditionally, religiously) is Jerusalem and Israel. You might call me a zionist, but I guess these truths are what zionism is all about. Hezbolah is a terroist organization. One of my employers lives full time in Beruit and communicates with us primarily on line. He and many other Lebonese weren't upset by what happend. Hezbolah are inflicting great injustices in Lebanon and are setting them back as a nation. The Palestinians are being funded and brainwashed by an upset Iran. Do the Israelis commit injustice? Yes, unfortunately...but such is a situation that is as heated as this one is. We are not in the middle of any new developments in the Middle East, but living out the drama that has been unfolding since Abraham had two sons: Isaac and Ishmael.

 

[Gulli]

think of it from an israeli's point of view, palestinians are attacking them for one reason or another, the same with hezbolah. if a country or group openly attacked or did something to provoke a war wouldn't you want your country to fight back?
in my opinion (and this is not all of it so please dont get upset) the israelis were for sometime doing a good job against palestine, they were constantly being attacked by extremists and suicide bombers and they did their best to eradicate this threat to their national security and their people. im not saying that i totally agree with what they are doing but for some time i recognize that they were doing their best.

 

[sanzar]

so you can say that jews are complaining of something they were victim 60 years ago and they are doing now. what a good lesson given by history but forgot 2 generations after. [/b]

No, what the Israeli Jews are complaining about is what happend in 80AD. They were kicked out of their homeland by the Roman Empire...forced to migrate throughout Europe. It may be odd, but what happend in 1946 was the result of close to 1900 years of waiting. Did the world move on? Yes. But the home of the jewish people (historically, traditionally, religiously) is Jerusalem and Israel. You might call me a zionist, but I guess these truths are what zionism is all about. Hezbolah is a terroist organization. One of my employers lives full time in Beruit and communicates with us primarily on line. He and many other Lebonese weren't upset by what happend. Hezbolah are inflicting great injustices in Lebanon and are setting them back as a nation. The Palestinians are being funded and brainwashed by an upset Iran. Do the Israelis commit injustice? Yes, unfortunately...but such is a situation that is as heated as this one is. We are not in the middle of any new developments in the Middle East, but living out the drama that has been unfolding since Abraham had two sons: Isaac and Ishmael.
[/b]

It is true that Israel and Jeruselum are the traditional homeland of the Jews and that they did get kicked off it, but it doesn't change the fact that that left close to 2000 years where the Arabs called the place home... So to them, regardless of the Jews own percieved "right" to the land, it just feels as another western act of "imperialism". From their perspective they've been invaded left right an centre by western European powers for the better part of the last millenium, and in the culmination of WWII the Allies decided that the Jews could have Israel, despite the fact Arabs were living there. And while it wasn't a state at the time, you can see how the Arabs have interpreted the act as being totally arrogant and imperialistic.
No side is "right" in this fight... the Israelis have better facilities, but are just as ruthless as the fundementalist Muslims who want to see the Jews wiped out. In reality the constant reshaping of the map of the middle east is just as responsible as the religeous fundementalism for the violence we see every day on the news.
In interesting solution that a person in my International Security tute suggested the other day was to make Jeruselum an international city state like the Vatacin in Rome. It would mean everyone had access to it, however, the prospect of either the Muslims or the Israelis agreeing to let the other side in is next to nil.

 

[O'Rothlain]

In interesting solution that a person in my International Security tute suggested the other day was to make Jeruselum an international city state like the Vatacin in Rome. It would mean everyone had access to it, however, the prospect of either the Muslims or the Israelis agreeing to let the other side in is next to nil.
[/b]

That's quite the interesting proposition. I've just been discussing it with my father-in-law. Great idea, but I think you're right in thinking no one would agree to it, especially the Israelis.

Yes, it has been 2,000 years, therefore it is a shared holy land. It's like two kids fighting over the same toy, they need to learn to share. Tolerance is essintial. I may disagree with someone's very fundamental ideas, but that does not mean he/she is less of a person. They should be granted the same rights and privelages as I.

 

[Ripper]

hum sorry if i shoked you, but you might not have understood what i said.
i know what is the nazi horror (i've seen many reports showing it, i know they were burning some 11 000 persons a day in the only auschwitz !!!). but i said i was fed up them crying all the time they are still persecuted ... i will never forget what nazism is and what ultra nationalism is. but jews are complaining of a stuff they are doing (not as horrible i agree). saying jews, i'm wrong, that's truth , its israelis ... but most of them are closely linked with jews that lived the holocaust ! at least hitler killed them 'cause they were jews and not israelis, and who's fighting against the palestinians ? -> the israelian jews !!! so you can say that jews are complaining of something they were victim 60 years ago and they are doing now. what a good lesson given by history but forgot 2 generations after.
and i'm not racist. i'm working with a muslim girl so i can have a muslim's opinion on whats going on !!! i'm just trying to analyse everything (and i might be wrong), i'm not ******** on everyone !!!
[/b]

Wait, hold the press.

Are you comparing the attempted extermination of every Jew by Nazi Germany to Israel?

Jesus f***ing Christ....

 

[tituslechmakus]

<div class='quotemain'>
hum sorry if i shoked you, but you might not have understood what i said.
i know what is the nazi horror (i've seen many reports showing it, i know they were burning some 11 000 persons a day in the only auschwitz !!!). but i said i was fed up them crying all the time they are still persecuted ... i will never forget what nazism is and what ultra nationalism is. but jews are complaining of a stuff they are doing (not as horrible i agree). saying jews, i'm wrong, that's truth , its israelis ... but most of them are closely linked with jews that lived the holocaust ! at least hitler killed them 'cause they were jews and not israelis, and who's fighting against the palestinians ? -> the israelian jews !!! so you can say that jews are complaining of something they were victim 60 years ago and they are doing now. what a good lesson given by history but forgot 2 generations after.
and i'm not racist. i'm working with a muslim girl so i can have a muslim's opinion on whats going on !!! i'm just trying to analyse everything (and i might be wrong), i'm not ******** on everyone !!!
[/b]

Wait, hold the press.

Are you comparing the attempted extermination of every Jew by Nazi Germany to Israel?

Jesus f***ing Christ....
[/b][/quote]

what areyou f****** saying ??? did you see 11 000 palestinians die a day ??? i was not comparing the israelian war with the holocaust (the only thing worth than that was the WW1) but the fact israelians are complaining for the holocaust and at the same time massacring palestinians. Ripper can you read the texts and do an effort to understand ppl's point of view before saying **** please. i didn't say agree i said UNDERSTAND A POINT OF VIEW !!!

 

[DonBilly]

I was wondering what would happen if Celts claim that Britain should be gave back to them because 2000 years ago prior to the Roman and Barbarian invasion this land was theirs?

What would happened if the Indians asked that the non indian people living in north America should leave because 2000 years ago all this land was theirs?

After all zionism was unfortunately helped by what happened in Europe during WWII.

 

[tituslechmakus]

I was wondering what would happen if Celts claim that Britain should be gave back to them because 2000 years ago prior to the Roman and Barbarian invasion this land was theirs?

What would happened if the Indians asked that the non indian people living in north America should leave because 2000 years ago all this land was theirs?

After all zionism was unfortunately helped by what happened in Europe during WWII.
[/b]

thanks donbilly, you said exactly what i wanted to ... and you don't need 2000 years for the indians in america ...
the proposition of sanzar to have jerusalem as an international city (btw vatican is not one, but the capital of the vatican state) is very intelligent as it is a holy ity for the 3 major religions in the world ; none could claim it. but this proposition is unacceptable as it is way too inteligent and practicle !!! pffff !!!

 

[O'Rothlain]

I was wondering what would happen if Celts claim that Britain should be gave back to them because 2000 years ago prior to the Roman and Barbarian invasion this land was theirs?

What would happened if the Indians asked that the non indian people living in north America should leave because 2000 years ago all this land was theirs?

After all zionism was unfortunately helped by what happened in Europe during WWII.
[/b]

Well, unfortnately by Celts, you are reffering to the peoples of Britain, I presume? Celt is a very loose term. The Romans came and left and basically things went back. So they already have their land back. The indians in North America, could claim what they wanted back, and have a right to do so. They do, however, have huge chunks of land scattered throughout America that are technically independant from the US. So, if somehow you were trying to show that the Jews claims to Israel are nulified by the example of other "similar" scenarios, you failed. But please do try again.

And...just because something seems ridiculous does not mean it's not true and/or valid. It might seem ridiculous to claim a 2000 year repramation (sp) but it doesn't mean it's wrong.