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What now for NH rugby?

I honestly don't think there is that big a gap between north and south. The English and French are hampered by there domestic leagues but from Ireland and Wales point of view it was the injuries that did us in.
From an Irish perspective if New Zealand were missing Retallick, McCaw, Kaino, Carter and Conrad Smith would they be half the team? Would South Africa have beaten Wales if they were missing Burger, Louw, Pollard, Etzebeth and Kriel? Would Australia have beaten Scotland if the were missing Hooper, Fardy, Douglas, Foley and Kuridrani?

I don't think so.
 
I think that's a misconception. Italy haven't improved much since entering the 6N.
No it's not if you could improve on your own simply by playing, Georgian Championship would be stronger than Top14... that's one of the basics of any sport..

Italy is the case where a country doesn't really care about the sport.. you won't Improve if you don't care even if you play 15 rugby gods every weekend.
 
I honestly don't think there is that big a gap between north and south. The English and French are hampered by there domestic leagues but from Ireland and Wales point of view it was the injuries that did us in.
From an Irish perspective if New Zealand were missing Retallick, McCaw, Kaino, Carter and Conrad Smith would they be half the team? Would South Africa have beaten Wales if they were missing Burger, Louw, Pollard, Etzebeth and Kriel? Would Australia have beaten Scotland if the were missing Hooper, Fardy, Douglas, Foley and Kuridrani?

I don't think so.
Damn right Jock, I notice the ABs didn't fancy the off load game today either, bet a Feb RWC in NH would ship some big hits .
 
No it's not if you could improve on your own simply by playing, Georgian Championship would be stronger than Top14... that's one of the basics of any sport..

Italy is the case where a country doesn't really care about the sport.. you won't Improve if you don't care even if you play 15 rugby gods every weekend.
The Georgian Championship teams could play the Top 14 teams every week and still not get any better.

Getting numbers into the sport and identifying talent improves teams, getting hammered by teams which are better than you does nothing but reduce morale, fan support and create a losing mentality.
 
I honestly don't think there is that big a gap between north and south. The English and French are hampered by there domestic leagues but from Ireland and Wales point of view it was the injuries that did us in.
From an Irish perspective if New Zealand were missing Retallick, McCaw, Kaino, Carter and Conrad Smith would they be half the team? Would South Africa have beaten Wales if they were missing Burger, Louw, Pollard, Etzebeth and Kriel? Would Australia have beaten Scotland if the were missing Hooper, Fardy, Douglas, Foley and Kuridrani?

I don't think so.

Really? What a ridiculous arguement. The Strength in NZ and SA rugby is depth. NZ more so. Given 4 years after this 2015 WC some of the below players will be established figures in the team.

Brad Shields, Akira Aione, George Moala, Ardie Savea, Otere Black, Anton leinert-brown etc etc.

Show me players at around 21 years of age with half the skill of this bunch and i'll eat my hat.
 
You mean all those players coming through who've won JRWC? They've got no chance of improving our prospects....
 
Yes of course the gap isn't as big as the media make it out to be, but it still is present. New Zealand can vary their game expertly depending on the conditions, opposition etc. On dry ground against a defensively suspect team, eg France, they can absolutely obliterate them with a hard running, offload based game. In wet conditions against an incredibly physical, defensively sound team, like today, they can reduce the number of knock ons they make by playing the percentages with many bombs, line kicks and grubbers into touch. South Africa could hardly get out of their half today.

I can say with 100% confidence that if the following happened:
Wales beat SA (due to having a full team)
Ireland beat Argentina (due to having a full team and Garces awarding the red card)
Scotland beat Oz (due to Joubert not awarding that penalty)
The media would be incessantly praising the strides made in the NH and how there is a gap between North and South in North's favour. Utter nonsense of course.
Yes there is a gap but not as big as people perceive to be.
 
The Georgian Championship teams could play the Top 14 teams every week and still not get any better.

Getting numbers into the sport and identifying talent improves teams, getting hammered by teams which are better than you does nothing but reduce morale, fan support and create a losing mentality.


what are you telling me that Guy playing against teams like toulon every week doesn't have advantage over the guy playing zebre ?? its big fish in the small pond situation.. you could be the best in Georgian Championship but if you are never exposed to a higher level you will not improve much..

Identifying talent is a different discussion altogether that is outside the main point...

nop USA and England have the highest number of players in the world.

Argentina improved drastically because they were included in the 4N.

Do you watch rugby my friend?
 
There IS a big gap between the northern and southern hemispheres but it's not in the players quality.
The issue is with the 6 Nations tourney. The format is very old and it's creaking under the strain.
The RC has done wonders for Argentina. They have gone from being middle of the pack to being top tier and it's because of their involvement in the super white hot intensity of the RC.
The RC is by far the toughest regular/Annual International tournament in the world.
The 6 Nations is a distant second.
Go ahead and waffle on about the grand old lady if you need to but the format is holding back the NH teams. I watch it, but i never take it seriously. The scheduling is almost random. The likely winners of the event are normally earmarked after the first weekend. It's a mess and a standing joke to those of us who watch the RC regularly.
The NH teams are not getting any kind of appropriate preparation for the long road of a world cup from the 6 Nations.
The players are good enough but the competition they compete in is nowhere near good enough. We have been saying it for years and now the RWC has borne it out.
Modernise the format, make it week in and week out, home and away, also have a second tier 5 nations tourney and operate a relegation/promotion aspect to make everyone work that little bit harder.
It WILL prove the difference when the RWC rolls around again.
 
There literally isn't enough weeks in the season to have the 6N home and away without seriously endangering player welfare.
 
There IS a big gap between the northern and southern hemispheres but it's not in the players quality.
The issue is with the 6 Nations tourney. The format is very old and it's creaking under the strain.
The RC has done wonders for Argentina. They have gone from being middle of the pack to being top tier and it's because of their involvement in the super white hot intensity of the RC.
The RC is by far the toughest regular/Annual International tournament in the world.
The 6 Nations is a distant second.
Go ahead and waffle on about the grand old lady if you need to but the format is holding back the NH teams. I watch it, but i never take it seriously. The scheduling is almost random. The likely winners of the event are normally earmarked after the first weekend. It's a mess and a standing joke to those of us who watch the RC regularly.
The NH teams are not getting any kind of appropriate preparation for the long road of a world cup from the 6 Nations.
The players are good enough but the competition they compete in is nowhere near good enough. We have been saying it for years and now the RWC has borne it out.
Modernise the format, make it week in and week out, home and away, also have a second tier 5 nations tourney and operate a relegation/promotion aspect to make everyone work that little bit harder.
It WILL prove the difference when the RWC rolls around again.

You obviously pay little attention. Yes the 6N may not be as fast as the RC but there IS a second tier competition and there is no promotion or relegation because the gap between the 6N and the tier 2 competition is so great chances are 90% of the time, whichever team got promoted/relegated the year before would return to the league they came from. Basically Georgia would keep getting promoted the the 6N with likely Italy going down, then next year Italy would return to the 6N and Georgia would drop back down. It would be a joke.

Also you can't really do home and away games for the 6N, that would be 10 weeks of games as opposed to the current 5. That would be added on top of European clubs already playing more hours than SH clubs and the players would be dead on their feet. The only way to avoid that would be to have huge co-operation between the clubs and the national side about the amount of time players would play.

Now an alternative would be to do away with the 6N, have a 4 nations instead, do home and away. Make a tier 2 involving the bottom 2 from the 6N currently (Italy and Scotland) and the top 2 from the current tier 2 (Romania and Georgia I believe). Make a tier 3 for the remaining European teams. That would allow home and away games and maybe even a promotion/relegation system. Of course in this system, the 2nd tier must get as much coverage as the new 4N.
 
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^^^ See thats one of the main issues!!! The clubs shouldnt have any say whatsoever in how the int season is run and what players are available and when. As long as you continue that you will certainly be second rate.
 
You obviously pay little attention. Yes the 6N may not be as fast as the RC but there IS a second tier competition and there is no promotion or relegation because the gap between the 6N and the tier 2 competition is so great chances are 90% of the time, whichever team got promoted/relegated the year before would return to the league they came from. Basically Georgia would keep getting promoted the the 6N with likely Italy going down, then next year Italy would return to the 6N and Georgia would drop back down. It would be a joke.

Also you can't really do home and away games for the 6N, that would be 10 weeks of games as opposed to the current 5. That would be added on top of European clubs already playing more hours than SH clubs and the players would be dead on their feet. The only way to avoid that would be to have huge co-operation between the clubs and the national side about the amount of time players would play.

Now an alternative would be to do away with the 6N, have a 4 nations instead, do home and away. Make a tier 2 involving the bottom 2 from the 6N currently (Italy and Scotland) and the top 2 from the current tier 2 (Romania and Georgia I believe). Make a tier 3 for the remaining European teams. That would allow home and away games and maybe even a promotion/relegation system. Of course in this system, the 2nd tier must get as much coverage as the new 4N.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Italy there.
If we look at the team that came last in the 6 nations since the last world cup we see:

2012 - Scotland
2013 - France
2014 - Italy
2015 - Scotland

So I think a range of teams would go down at times. It wouldn't be long before Georgia was in the 6 nations for a couple of years in a row (they'd only need to pick up a win or two - think Italy/ Scotland when France had gone down). Also the 2nd tier competition would benefit from the increased games vs the 1st tier sides.
Another option I could see working is if the wooden spooner of the 6 nations and the winner of the 2nd tier competition played a 3 match promotion relegation series. It would be hard for the teams to go up but that series would be great experience for them as well as it would be an extra 3 games a year vs top level competition. This would help the 2nd tier teams to get their game up to the level of the 6 nations and ensure that if they got promoted they'd be a competitive outfit.
 
He's not being 'harsh' Cardassian, he is being utterly myopic and so is Oly.
With no change there will be no world cups in the northern hemisphere, ever.
Do you want a northern team to make the semi finals let alone win it?
It would be brilliant for rugby if they could but the miracle of 2003 is only getting further and further away.
Drop the loser of next years tournament in to lower tier, make it 5 nations the year after and make Italy and Georgia fight it out in the lower tier with Scotland joining them from time to time, and on current form, France as well.
Spain, Portugal and Romania could get serious sponsorship if this was the case.
The players will be tough enough if the format requires it because they sure seem to be soft now.
The 6 Nations event is holding back the International players in Europe.
Restructure and reschedule and make it the pre eminent tournament in the world that it was once upon a time pre-RC.
Now its a tawdry shambolic mechanism for holding back the traditional European powerhouses and all you ever hear trotted out when someone raises the issue of change is the same head in the sand diatribe that will keep European rugby in the dark for the next millennium.
Zero teams in the semi finals.
At a RWC held in the European back yard.
The hosts couldn't even get out of their pool...
Wales threatened and Ireland promised but only a plucky Scotland playing with two players who should have been banned against an Aussie team resting its two most influential players managed to come close.
France were on the receiving end of a world record defeat.
This RWC has been one long humiliating affair for the European tier one teams.
It doesn't have to be this way, if the 6 Nations is restructured to resemble the RC more closely then the outcomes will not be so obvious after the 1st weekend, the format will help players feel the path in a RWC and the intensity will heat up and bring more experience of merit to the players.
The 6 Nations is now an anachronism holding back the International development of European players who have genuine designs on lifting the RWC.
The situation is serious.
 
NH vs SH Debate.

First post, so hello. I know that this may sound a bit trite and holier than thou, but my first love is great rugby, and i don't get too myopic about whatever nation. I am an Englishman, living in Zimbabwe for the last 2 years, but have always supported Wales. Let me first of all exclaim without reservation how astonishingly brilliant this RWC has been. I previously thought of Lions tours as the apogee of the sport - no longer. The NH may fall behind the SH on the field: but take a bow RWC England: particularly the support of the fans: every stadium full, even for tier 2 vs tier 2 games. It has added immensely to the enjoyment of the games, you really get the sense of atmosphere, and the sport has served up the most incredible and implausible scripts and drama.

The superiority of Southern Hemisphere rugby though - in terms not only of results, but also style of play is unquestionable - with the AB's the pinnacle of the sport consistently - decade in, decade out. Generally it is the exception that proves the rule here - the AB's losing occasionally and the NH winning occasionally. So i don't really think we can question the verdict here, the only pertinent question is the perennial one of: why?

The NH are undoubtedly talented, they can be as fit, strong and fast, and have no reason to doubt their passion. The gulf isn't massive, but it has nevertheless always seemed undbridgeable (again we are not talking one off results here). We know that at international level it is so often small margins that win games, and with the SH, add up those tiny margins over the course of a game: handling, precision, decision making, cohesion, instinct, support play â€" and it becomes the winning margin. They enjoy no grand canyon of advantage in each area in isolation, but cumulatively it makes the difference.
But what gives them that small margin of superiority? Again I don’t think you can suggest it is gaping and obvious reason â€" it is the manifestation of a number of small considerations.

Competition? Watching every 6 nations game vs every rugby championship game, and most super 15's v premiership: it is not hard to see the emerging picture of faster, flowing more skillful rugby in the SH. So playing on such a level so consistently is bound to have an effect.
Weather? - I think some very small allowance could be made here (I am sure it teems down in NZ, and I am sure it is as dry as a bone in the rugby stronghold of southern France â€" with regularity) â€" but possibly a little bit of slack here that adds to the ‘’pile’’.

The way rugby is set up in each country? I think we have a larger slice of difference here. Who really understands the set up in each country â€" home unions alone let alone SH â€" I certainly don’t, and I am on a voyage of research. It does seem though that the SH are set up in far more of a pyramid structure with everything leading to the national side. SANZAR I believe have the whip hand (possibly full control) in super 15’s and rugby championship, so it all seems to dovetail together, whereas certainly for England and France, never the twain shall meet for the national side vs respective premierships. So we just have consistency in the SH right the way through, which I am sure accumulates a difference.

National Coaches? How much difference can they actually make once they have the squad that have come through all the other levels of coaching? I think in particular if you look at Argentina, Japan and Scotland â€" the answer is â€" or can be â€" a lot. All 3 of those teams have utterly transformed the way they play in very short periods of time, which suggests the right man can possibly overcome the deficiencies of the other aspects above. No small coincidence though that the 3 named are all SH. Similarly look what has happened with France â€" they are the most unflairy side you can imagine and their NH coach has taken them backwards at a rate of knots over the last few seasons.

Philosophy/physcology? Again I think we have another more substantial reason here â€" particularly when combined with National Coach above. Hourcade for Argentina especially has promoted a philosophy of attacking rugby to score tries to win, as opposed to focusing soley on scrums, lineouts and aggressive defence as Argentinian rugby was for years. He has transformed the side in double quick time, and with their ongoing involvement in rugby championship and now super 16’s - it becomes a self -fulfilling prophecy. Italy should take note. With England in particular there just seems to be a physcological problem â€" which is maybe a national pshyce which clearly effects football as well. More afraid of losing than actually winning, a national and almost natural sense of reserve â€" we don’t like to be flashy which I am sure â€" right from early years, stymies what nay have been great natural flair. Of course there are exceptions, but add this in with the other reasons and the case builds. It is particularly frustrating with England: by an astounding margin the most registered players in the world at the most rugby clubs in the world, with the biggest fanbase and most money.

Early Development. Having been involved in coaching up to U13, I think the RFU tries here, unfortunately in too many cases throughout the land, the age group coach gets more fixated on winning than anything else â€" good for short term instant gratification, bad for long term prospects. Best epitomised as follows: the guy that runs through everyone and scores every time is generally put at stand off â€" great for him â€" but no one else benefits. He should be on the wing so that the others at least get used to handling the ball â€" and knowing if they get it to big Johnny (running and passing as they go) he will score. Also from my experience way too much focus on grunting, wrestling and shoving as opposed to developing crucial ball handling skills and running into spaces. No doubt again many exceptions â€" but across the land we were certainly not singing from the same hymn sheet, which I suspect again is one of those little differences that can affect the end result. SH consistency right from the start.

Rugby is a great game and by and large ‘’the product’’ is best played by the SH. It would not be unreasonable to see the USA entering the fray and buying into a Super franchise and competing in the rugby championship â€" I think they would find this far more appealing than anything the NH could offer at the moment. A sleeping giant awakes?

In conclusion (at last) it is tremendous to see the game reaching ever greater levels of skill, thrill and support. I never want to watch a 6 nations, Rugby championship or RWC where the results are too predictable and one nation is a shoe in to beat another â€" I don’t want England and France to dominate the 6 nations as they once did, the emergence of Ireland and re-emergence of Wales has been fantastic for the tournament and I can’t wait to see Scotland competing on equal terms as well (which I am sure they are now) â€" so come on Italy. Similarly the Pumas have transformed my anticipation of the RC. I hope we can see some dramatic developments in NH, as of course I’d love to see the Lions smash the AB’s, perhaps it’s possible, but I think addressing some of the root and branch areas would go a long way over the long term.
Can’t wait for RWC Japan 2019, and will definitely plan to go.
Viva la Rugby.
 
Nice post Kent.

One of the areas that, in particular, the All Blacks have really improved in over the last few years is psychology (you did mention philosophy/physcology). Gilbert Enoka is the All Blacks mental skills coach and his influence seems to have had a significant effect over the last few years. Obviously it's not just him - the leadership of Hansen, McCaw and other coaches/senior players has contributed, but this attitude of learning to love pressure and to excel under pressure has been obvious for all to see. When the pressure comes on, this side, under the on-field leadership of McCaw, remains calm and goes about the business of doing what needs to be done and they have won so many games that could have, and perhaps should have, been lost.

I see this "mental skills" area as one where NZ in particular has a distinct edge over the rest right now.
 

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