Warm Up Match 3: Crusaders v British & Irish Lions (Christchurch)

[Truth]

So far NZers can't get past Mathieu Raynal...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...-find-a-new-villain-in-referee-mathieu-raynal

 

[ianw16]

Right now, as a Lions fan I have to agree with this. The Lions need to be finishing off the 2-3 chances they made themselves today to stand any chance of overhauling the ABs. If they can keep it tight and low scoring, then that is possibly their best chance when all is said and done. Not sure I agree with hours of my life wasted watching the game. I was pretty absorbed. If you need 8 tries to make you happy, then there is always 7's. Some times, the game becomes one of attrition, defence and control. The Lions clearly understand they don't want to be in an expansive rugby spectacle, and expect to come out on top. Not going to ever happen. Dullsville thuggery, controlling tempo, accurate kicking, mammoth defending is the MO of any side wanting to overturn the All Blacks from north of the equator. Finishing chances will also help. If we had polled this forum before the match ass to how many expected the Lions to keep the Crusaders to 3 points, then I expect the answer would have been nil.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it wasn't just the lack of tries. The error count was horrendous. Very little continuity. Poor back play. Not much excitement to be had. Messy. Pretty poor spectacle. Maybe it's just that NH watchers are more used to that kind of thing

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well, this is the truth...

"Five minutes from halftime he allowed Lions captain Alun Wyn Jones to pull down a promising Crusaders maul near their line. At the least it was a penalty. It wasn't far off being a yellow card. Raynal ignored it."

as is this...

"Owen Farrell had a chance to advance the lead to 12-3 three minutes into the second half. Thirty seconds earlier there should have been a penalty to the Crusaders when a Lions forward illegally kicked the ball through."

and this...

"Liam Williams knocked the ball forward three metres, in a move that went close to being a try for Anthony Watson, and it took the television match official to point that out to Raynal".

So I don't see what you are complaining about.

As for his scrum adjudication, that was just a joke. He was utterly clueless as to what was going on... he was guessing, and most of the time, he was guessing wrong. The first scrum PK he awarded was against the Crusaders for pushing early, but it was clearly obvious to anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of scrummaging that Furlong was pulling his side of the scrum backwards. Later, he PKs the Crusaders scrum for wheeling, but the Lions front row came up before the wheel starts. Even a grassroots whistler refereeing Old Fartonians v Dagenham 4ths knows that if the opposing front row goes up before the wheel, then the wheeling team was pushing forward first so the wheel is legal.

This is basic stuff; scrum refereeing 101. A referee at this level should not be getting such elementary things wrong.

So... Two mistakes and a correct call and a couple less than convincing opinions at scrum time, while I'm sure Crusaders got nothing? Hmmm... Raynal is one of the best refs in the NH and he wasn't the reason the Crusaders messed up training ground line out moves or dropped the ball on with the line at their mercy, he also didn't structure the Lions defence to nullify the Crusaders attack, so at a guess, I reckon NZ's media are trying to find a culprit rather than accept they were beaten by a better side... Shocking, I know!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

To those who are questioning the Haka being done before every tour game if think it is down to your lack of understanding of it.

So for your benefit here are The Arizona Wildcast showing what it is about.

 

[Nubiwan]

Oh, don't get me wrong, it wasn't just the lack of tries. The error count was horrendous. Very little continuity. Poor back play. Not much excitement to be had. Messy. Pretty poor spectacle. Maybe it's just that NH watchers are more used to that kind of thing

Yeah - fair enough, but my point is, that is how the Lions will hope to win their tests. Minimize mistakes of their own, pressure as many from the opposition as they can, kick their goals, kick smartly for position, and play above themselves in defence. It will not be to make New Zealanders happy they watched it.

 

[profitius]

To those who are questioning the Haka being done before every tour game if think it is down to your lack of understanding of it.

So for your benefit here are The Arizona Wildcast showing what it is about.

I can see the haka evolving into something like this:

 

[galumay]

In the end, the Lions gave the Crusaders a lesson in stout defending that they will not have come up against in Super Rugby

While I wouldnt strongly disagree with most of your post, I think you are underestimating the quality of the defence from the other Super rugby sides, the Canes, Highlanders and Chiefs are all no slouches in defence and even the Blues showed some ticker in defence earlier in the week. The Saders were just awful tonite, I cant remember seeing them look so lost in all the years I have been watching them, sure they had some big names missing, but I really think they were massively over confident going into this game, and then just expected it to open up for them at some point.

 

[ianw16]

So... Two mistakes and a correct call and a couple less than convincing opinions at scrum time, while I'm sure Crusaders got nothing? Hmmm... Raynal is one of the best refs in the NH and he wasn't the reason the Crusaders messed up training ground line out moves or dropped the ball on with the line at their mercy, he also didn't structure the Lions defence to nullify the Crusaders attack, so at a guess, I reckon NZ's media are trying to find a culprit rather than accept they were beaten by a better side... Shocking, I know!

The Lions deserved to win. In a tight game, however, decisions, particularly where the ref seemed to have a basic lack of understanding in one area of the game where the Cru were on top, can seem to be pivotal. If he gets those decisions right, who knows? All irrelevant now. He won't be anywhere near the test matches, and that's all that counts.

 

[Nubiwan]

So... Two mistakes and a correct call and a couple less than convincing opinions at scrum time, while I'm sure Crusaders got nothing? Hmmm... Raynal is one of the best refs in the NH and he wasn't the reason the Crusaders messed up training ground line out moves or dropped the ball on with the line at their mercy, he also didn't structure the Lions defence to nullify the Crusaders attack, so at a guess, I reckon NZ's media are trying to find a culprit rather than accept they were beaten by a better side... Shocking, I know!

I thought the reffing today was bleak, and if I were a Crusaders fan, I'd be having a go at him. Still, I thought both teams had to put up with him, and he missed collapsed mauls from line-outs, players clearly obstructing kick chasers etc., that went unnoticed.

The Lions stifled their opposition who frankly looked under the weather, and perhaps overestimated their own chances on the back of the Lions first two matches. And, why not? Not like the Lions were any great shakes today, and hardly scored enough to ever make this comfortable, but it was an improvement, and against - by far - the best 15 side they have come up against on the tour. A side that also has the luxury of 15 weeks of super rugby comp under their belts. Lions were decent, of not flash, amd the Crusaders decidedly average at best.

 

[Nubiwan]

While I wouldnt strongly disagree with most of your post, I think you are underestimating the quality of the defence from the other Super rugby sides, the Canes, Highlanders and Chiefs are all no slouches in defence and even the Blues showed some ticker in defence earlier in the week. The Saders were just awful tonite, I cant remember seeing them look so lost in all the years I have been watching them, sure they had some big names missing, but I really think they were massively over confident going into this game, and then just expected it to open up for them at some point.

Yeah fair enough too, but the Lions line speed was pretty constant/impressive for 80 minutes. I watch more Super Rugby than anything else, to be honest, and my opinion is that the Crusaders are somewhat fortunate to have themselves an unbeaten record, given some of their matches this year. Several of their earlier results clawed back from 20 odd points down. You do what you have to in order to win. The Lions did it tonight, and the Crusaders could not find it.

 

[ALJ]

All-in-all, I thought it was a decent game and a much needed win.

Seemed to me that the Lions defence put pressure on the Crusaders and their backline crumbled a bit.
I've never personally bought into the idea that a game is boring just because no tries are scored but each to their own.

Don't have the time to get into anything more detailed but a couple of points:

AWJ - played a full game today so he won't feature on Tuesday. As we only have 4 2nd rows, that makes him nailed on for next Saturday and the cycle turns again. Seems to me like Gatland is working it so there's no chance of him not starting the first test.
Some of the AB fans on this forum (not all by any means but I suspect everyone knows the ones) - honestly I am just glad that the NZers I know personally are not like you. I'm embarrassed for you tbh (although the main culprits seem to be very new so not ruling out them just being trolls).

 

[Nubiwan]

My personal highlight of the night was Ian Smiths comment to the effect that "nothing puts the mockers on a rendition of Sweet Caroline - like a scrum penalty" - I love NZ comms in rugby. Too bad Nesbo wasn't partnering Marhsall tonight, as they are the best at it IMHO. Though I do like the bloke commentating tonight as he too can be dry and cares little about sharing his opinion on decisions etc.

 

[smartcooky]

So... Two mistakes and a correct call and a couple less than convincing opinions at scrum time, while I'm sure Crusaders got nothing? Hmmm... Raynal is one of the best refs in the NH and he wasn't the reason the Crusaders messed up training ground line out moves or dropped the ball on with the line at their mercy, he also didn't structure the Lions defence to nullify the Crusaders attack, so at a guess, I reckon NZ's media are trying to find a culprit rather than accept they were beaten by a better side... Shocking, I know!

Oh, I have no problem with that. The Crusaders were shite, and the Lions were less shite... so they were the better team on the night and deserved to win

What annoys me is that a match which had the potential to be a classic, turned out to be a defensive turdfest, and that is largely down to an incompetent referee who

a. couldn't tell the difference between a scrum being mullered by their opponents and a scrum being illegally wheeled.
b couldn't tell the difference between an early shove in a scrum, and a scrum being pulled around by the opposing THP
c . appeared to have no concept of an offside line in backplay
d. allowed a free-for-all at the breakdown

"c" is especially important because if rush defenses are allowed to leave fractionally early (as they were for the whole 80 minutes) then that becomes the difference between a match with enterprising back play, and the unmitigated borefest we ended up with.

Frankly, I'm not really interested in watching a midfield tackling competition in which the score increases in threes.

 

[Ground We Won]

While I wouldnt strongly disagree with most of your post, I think you are underestimating the quality of the defence from the other Super rugby sides, the Canes, Highlanders and Chiefs are all no slouches in defence and even the Blues showed some ticker in defence earlier in the week. The Saders were just awful tonite, I cant remember seeing them look so lost in all the years I have been watching them, sure they had some big names missing, but I really think they were massively over confident going into this game, and then just expected it to open up for them at some point.

It's because they tried to shoehorn Dagg into the squad at the expense of an inform Havili being forced into playing at 12. It completely offset the backline and it didn't help Mo'Unga was swamped by an offside Lions line.

Dagg was the only Crusaders player good under the highball though, but it's not enough really, he really shouldn't be anywhere near the All Blacks at the moment, like in 2015 he suffered an injury and hasn't played enough or done enough.

 

[Ground We Won]

Some of the AB fans on this forum (not all by any means but I suspect everyone knows the ones) - honestly I am just glad that the NZers I know personally are not like you. I'm embarrassed for you tbh (although the main culprits seem to be very new so not ruling out them just being trolls).

Goes both ways mate. There's numerous amounts of aggressive British posters on here that far out number the smattering of crappy SH posters, there's a lot of mob mentality here too, particularly towards the Haka.

 

[Nubiwan]

Oh, I have no problem with that. The Crusaders were shite, and the Lions were less shite... so they were the better team on the night and deserved to win

What annoys me is that a match which had the potential to be a classic, turned out to be a defensive turdfest, and that is largely down to an incompetent referee who

a. couldn't tell the difference between a scrum being mullered by their opponents and a scrum being illegally wheeled.
b couldn't tell the difference between an early shove in a scrum, and a scrum being pulled around by the opposing THP
c . appeared to have no concept of an offside line in backplay
d. allowed a free-for-all at the breakdown

"c" is especially important because if rush defenses are allowed to leave fractionally early (as they were for the whole 80 minutes) then that becomes the difference between a match with enterprising back play, and the unmitigated borefest we ended up with.

Frankly, I'm not really interested in watching a midfield tackling competition in which the score increases in threes.

Get used to it mate, because that is where the Lions want to be. Not making you or anyone else in the world happy they had to sit and watch it. So, turdfests here we come . I am not condoning any of it, least of all the ref tonight, but that is probably typical of how the Lions want their test matches to pan out. Their game will need to be structured, methodical, controlling, solid in defence and error free if they are to have any joy against NZ opposition. Anything else will generally play into the oppositions hands. Crowing about the ref just comes across as sour grapes. He was indeed cat, but I still don't think the Crusaders did enough with the ball in hand, and clearly were lost for ideas themselves at times. Your number 10 (Moala sp?) was a bit lost if I am being honest, and a weak link. The ref wasn't knocking balls on and throwing poor lines outs for the Crusaders either. The history books might yet show the only blemish on the Crusaders 2017 season was a defeat to the Lions in which they were held to just 3 points. Refs notwithstanding.

 

[Nubiwan]

Goes both ways mate. There's numerous amounts of aggressive British posters on here that far out number the smattering of crappy SH posters, there's a lot of mob mentality here too, particularly towards the Haka.

Hope I am not included in the mob of which you speak. I just think thee Haka overindulged. Maybe there are just more test matches to be seen on the TV these days than in the past. I merely voicing my own opinion and agreeing with others. Everyone loves the Haka, and happy to say I have witnessed more than one - on and off the park.

 

[Nubiwan]

Think we can all agree that the Lions performance (if not necessarily the result) needed to be positive tonight in order to keep this tour on track. They pretty much responded. Still a lot of work to do, and you could always sense today that the game was on the line for just abut 80 minutes. They never put away their chances. In the end, has to be said the Crusaders were disappointing, and possibly played the worst of any team the Lions have faced. But how much credit should go to the Lions for that. Lets not forget the ref. I get it the ref was dodgy, but I still think he missed decisions both ways. It was better from the Lions. An improvement, but not really that convincing if I am being honest. A foundation to build on.

 

[Ground We Won]

So I've paid $70 NZD's for my ticket to the Lions game in Dunedin on Tuesday. Hopefully there's a few more points in it than tonight.

What sort of team are people expecting? Will it be a midweek team ,or will he try keep some continuity?

 

[big ginger 8]

To those who are questioning the Haka being done before every tour game if think it is down to your lack of understanding of it.

So for your benefit here are The Arizona Wildcast showing what it is about.

If people want to find the best haka ever they should watch the one in Friday Night Lights, I can't find it on Youtube, maybe it was so beautiful it was considered porn.