(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Was either as good as heslip?

Faletau watching the Ireland game from his hotel was still performing better than Heaslip...

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Faletau watching the Ireland game from his hotel was still performing better than Heaslip...

This ... this is superb!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

This ... this is superb!

I second that, best put down I've read in ages. Made me laugh out load.

All this debate about an 8 for the lions surely has missed the best back row trio though.

6 Lund
7 Seymour
8 Easter

That's my lions back row.

 

[j'nuh]

I second that, best put down I've read in ages. Made me laugh out load.

All this debate about an 8 for the lions surely has missed the best back row trio though.

6 Lund
7 Seymour
8 Easter

That's my lions back row.

Good effort, but you're forgetting Braid. We just need to get him to play sevens for us first.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Good effort, but you're forgetting Braid. We just need to get him to play sevens for us first.

You're forgetting Haskell too. Did you not watch today, he was brilliant, and as we all know, 1 good performance is what really makes an international back rower. I'd feel comfortable saying that he's better than Pocock, Hooper and the All Blacks back row combined. Exceptional performance today.

 

[McTallshort]

You're forgetting Haskell too. Did you not watch today, he was brilliant, and as we all know, 1 good performance is what really makes an international back rower. I'd feel comfortable saying that he's better than Pocock, Hooper and the All Blacks back row combined. Exceptional performance today.

All joking aside Haskell has been playing some outstanding rugby in the last 6 months. Swapping him and Robshaw to opposite flanks seemed to have worked

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

All joking aside Haskell has been playing some outstanding rugby in the last 6 months. Swapping him and Robshaw to opposite flanks seemed to have worked

I think today was the only time he's performed as a 7. Before now he was always still just a 6 in a 7 shirt. I worry for him now in terms of Lions selection that he won't be enough of a 7 by the time selection comes around, but he'll have gone too far from 6 to really be considered there. I suppose he could fill the SOB role of being able to cover 6,7,8 but if he's fit, SOB will be taken for that, as frankly, he's better. In my mind, for the Lions you take 7 back rowers; 2 6s, 2 7s, 2 8s and 1 to cover all. At 6 Lydiate and Stander are ahead, at 7 Warbs, Hardie and Tips are ahead and at 8 Billy and Faletau are ahead. If Haskell finds out what position he really is then he stands a chance, but as a "6.5" he simply doesn't.

 

[Peat]

Haskell wants to back up that game before he's a serious candidate. One fantastic half doesn't change a legacy of inconsistency and never quite being the man. If you'd asked me to name the top 5 opensides and top 5 blindsides eligible for the Lions before this game, I wouldn't have... okay, maybe I'd have put him as the last blindside. Maybe.

As for which Irish to include in a team of the day... wasn't watching Wales hard enough to be honest to judge between them.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Haskell wants to back up that game before he's a serious candidate. One fantastic half doesn't change a legacy of inconsistency and never quite being the man. If you'd asked me to name the top 5 opensides and top 5 blindsides eligible for the Lions before this game, I wouldn't have... okay, maybe I'd have put him as the last blindside. Maybe.

As for which Irish to include in a team of the day... wasn't watching Wales hard enough to be honest to judge between them.

Who are the 5 opensides that you have above him?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm assuming they're all probably opensides.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'm assuming they're all probably opensides.

I was just trying to think which ones are above him. Warbs, Tips, Hardie, SOB?, ...

 

[Peat]

Cruel Rats, cruel :lol:

Warburton, Tipuric, O'Brien, Barclay, Hardie, with an honourable mention to Chris Henry.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Cruel Rats, cruel :lol:

Warburton, Tipuric, O'Brien, Barclay, Hardie, with an honourable mention to Chris Henry.

Really, Barclay?

 

[Peat]

Really, Barclay?

Has had more good outings in an international 7 shirt than Haskell.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Has had more good outings in an international 7 shirt than Haskell.

I guess, but would you really select him over Hask for the Lions? The Lions have always seemed like a team where experience comes above form, and Haskell beats Barclay in that respect.

Update:
Ignore this, I didn't realise Barclay has 50 international caps. Yeah, Barclay over Hask at 7, agreed.

 

[Peat]

I guess, but would you really select him over Hask for the Lions? The Lions have always seemed like a team where experience comes above form, and Haskell beats Barclay in that respect.

I prefer ability over both and right now I believe Barclay has more ability as Haskell as an openside. I would take neither but if pressed, Barclay gets the call first. Its not like he's inexperienced with his 50 Scotland caps.

 

[Groundhog]

Have any of you actually paid attention to Heaslip recently or are you all talking out the old proverbial poorly wiped brown ring on him as people tend to do when they can't perceive anything beyond big busting runs as good work from a rugby player? Watch any game he's had recently and look at the work he gets through. He and Murphy did the work of three backrows yesterday, and absolutely killed it. And the fact that Haskell is being discussed as Lions candidate after the slating he got leading up to this match is pretty telling.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Have any of you actually paid attention to Heaslip recently or are you all talking out the old proverbial poorly wiped brown ring on him as people tend to do when they can't perceive anything beyond big busting runs as good work from a rugby player? Watch any game he's had recently and look at the work he gets through. He and Murphy did the work of three backrows yesterday, and absolutely killed it. And the fact that Haskell is being discussed as Lions candidate after the slating he got leading up to this match is pretty telling.

I think when Haskell was being "considered" it was either sarcasm or he was being put at 5th choice 6 or 6th choice 7. I don't think anyone actually believes that he is a real Lions candidate, unless he performs consistently as he did yesterday.

As for Heaslip, you say that we can't perceive anything more than a player who puts in big busting runs, however, that is actually what an 8s basic job is, and in that aspect Heaslip is pretty useless. Murray, a scrum half, is more likely to make metres when taking the ball into contact. I won't deny the work Heaslip gets through, which is great if you're a flanker, but he continues to play at 8, and to be considered as a Lions 8, you need to be able to carry. Heaslip hadn't been able to carry since 2013. When SOB and POM are back to fitness, Heaslip shouldn't be in the Ireland lineup any more (POM 6, SOB 7, CJ 8)

 

[Groundhog]

I think when Haskell was being "considered" it was either sarcasm or he was being put at 5th choice 6 or 6th choice 7. I don't think anyone actually believes that he is a real Lions candidate, unless he performs consistently as he did yesterday.

As for Heaslip, you say that we can't perceive anything more than a player who puts in big busting runs, however, that is actually what an 8s basic job is, and in that aspect Heaslip is pretty useless. Murray, a scrum half, is more likely to make metres when taking the ball into contact. I won't deny the work Heaslip gets through, which is great if you're a flanker, but he continues to play at 8, and to be considered as a Lions 8, you need to be able to carry. Heaslip hadn't been able to carry since 2013. When SOB and POM are back to fitness, Heaslip shouldn't be in the Ireland lineup any more (POM 6, SOB 7, CJ 8)

Right ..... It's a fair opinion but actually I think it's not the job of an 8. Certain guys may have that role, but they need not necessarily. Not every member of your backrow needs to be a carrier, and you can have that balance however you want. Heaslip and Murphy/ our 7 do a lot of the grunt work, and then there's usually one designated hard carrier like O'Brien, Stander or maybe next week Henderson. That's how it's been for a long time, and just because Heaslip isn't a highlight reel player doesn't mean he has any less value for us. He's excellent at the back of a scrum, tackles like a demon, secures a serious amount of rucks, and as a huge leader in the Irish team. I'll put it like this. If Heaslip didn't do the work he does, who would pick up the slack? Who has the constant fitness and consistency to put in a dominant backrow performance with 14 men. His balance is one that we need. Things are pretty desperate when a Munster fan has to jump to Heaslip's defence. No one on this forum (bar probably Munstermuffin) has been more critical and quick to jump on Heaslip for any cock up than me, but he's been excellent recently, and I wouldn't drop him for anyone at this time.
Just to finish I think Faletau is a fantastic player, but in many ways he and Heaslip are apples and oranges. Like I said it's all about balance. Heaslip and Faletau are very different players, who are both excellent at what they do.
I think that when we have all of our backrows are fully fit (which sadly never happens given the way O'Brien is going) we have a pretty tough choice in front of us.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Right ..... It's a fair opinion but actually I think it's not the job of an 8. Certain guys may have that role, but they need not necessarily. Not every member of your backrow needs to be a carrier, and you can have that balance however you want. Heaslip and Murphy/ our 7 do a lot of the grunt work, and then there's usually one designated hard carrier like O'Brien, Stander or maybe next week Henderson. That's how it's been for a long time, and just because Heaslip isn't a highlight reel player doesn't mean he has any less value for us. He's excellent at the back of a scrum, tackles like a demon, secures a serious amount of rucks, and as a huge leader in the Irish team. I'll put it like this. If Heaslip didn't do the work he does, who would pick up the slack? Who has the constant fitness and consistency to put in a dominant backrow performance with 14 men. His balance is one that we need. Things are pretty desperate when a Munster fan has to jump to Heaslip's defence. No one on this forum (bar probably Munstermuffin) has been more critical and quick to jump on Heaslip for any cock up than me, but he's been excellent recently, and I wouldn't drop him for anyone at this time.
Just to finish I think Faletau is a fantastic player, but in many ways he and Heaslip are apples and oranges. Like I said it's all about balance. Heaslip and Faletau are very different players, who are both excellent at what they do.
I think that when we have all of our backrows are fully fit (which sadly never happens given the way O'Brien is going) we have a pretty tough choice in front of us.

Yes a lot of back rows (Ireland's is probably the prime example) do have their players not fill the roles that the position is considered to require. However, for the Lions I would expect that when they have such a huge selection area, they will go for players that fill the classic roles of each position. So a 6 that tackles anything and everything, a 7 that is great at getting turnovers and an 8 that can carry through brick walls. Sadly for him, Heaslip doesn't fill that role.