• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Vern Cotter

TRF_nickdnz said:
It was a physical and emotional challenge in which every member had to overcome something that they didn't want to do. If as part of the exercise we had to catch, kill and prepare our own food (providing none of us were vegetarians) - then that is also a team building exercise.

Again I think if players really objected to killing the animals - despite the hypocrisy - then they shouldn't have been forced to do it. But realistically it was a Podcast in which Hamilton exaggerated something for the sake of making it a good/gory story, which the media extrapolated out of the original context to get the biggest story out of it as possible, and people who love moral outrage decided to take as gospel.

But anyone who has ever played years of rugby can attest to (which at a guess I would say is no one who is negating this has played any rugby at senior level), often team exercises have less to do with the practical skills of rugby, and more to do with getting familiar, or comfortable or to strengthen the unity of the team. How that is achieved can depend on the coaches methods - and if a coach asked me to do something which I morally object to I wouldn't do it, but the reality is that what was asked of players was to partake in an outdoor survival course - and part of surviving outdoors is catching, killing, preparing and eating your own food. I think if people don't buy into the ridiculous levels of hyperbole involved in the article, there is nothing there which isn't unreasonable. Again, does anyone actually believe that if this was a fishing trip - there would be any objections?!
Click to expand...
I'd argue a slight cultural thing here I wouldn't expect to kill and animal on a survival weekend, possibly gut and prepare one but that would be outside.

It was one thing specifically forbade in Scouting (we also when I was young were banned from air rifle or archery at targets with animals/humans I did it a few tme then it was removed).
Yes it is part of Mum's not wanting kids to learn that kind of 'babrbaric' stuff. However it would also extend to survival 'weekends' expectation in this country.

I'd question how much killing animals adds to the team mentality I certainly get the going through a rotten time forever helping hell that's part of why me and wife's relationship is so solid. But I don't understand how a few being asked to kill rabbits (that have already been caught) adds to that.

As to Fish there's hypocracy everywhere on that front. Plenty of vegetarians will eat fish in this country. We have stringent humane killing laws on livestock but we're quite happy for Fish to suffocate to death. I agree with you on principal comepletely but reality in a lot of people minds is radically different.
 
ratsapprentice said:
By that definition they are also coerced into waking up early and training really hard in pre-season.

Even worse, they might actually lose their job over it.
Click to expand...

A bit of an apples and oranges comparison. As a professional rugby player, you would reasonably expect to have to train hard and put up with the odd early morning. I don't imagine that anyone goes in to a rugby career expecting to become an extra in a snuff version of Watership Down! Saying that replace "become an extra in a snuff version of Watership Down" with "take part in a team building exercise" and the argument holds no water.
 
RedruthRFC said:
I think the crux is you point that a carnivore should be prepared to kill their own meat. Other than fishing, I've never killed anything for the pot and it's not a task that I would relish, but as long as I was able to do so as humanely as a qualified professional, I would consider myself a hypocrite if I refused to do so. It appears that other people disagree. Based on my moral compass and any way I try to rationalise it, I can't understand why. IMO the reason that the thread isn't progressing is that nobody is willing or able to explain to people with out opinion why you're not a hypocrite if you are prepared to eat meat but not to kill it yourself.
Click to expand...

That opinion shouldn't need to be explained because it's not about that. It's as simple as that the players didn't want to kill the rabbits yet Cotter pushed them to do so. They shouldn't ha e to justify them not wanting to kill the rabbits, it wasn't rugby related so they should've been able to easily opt out of killing them. It should've been completely their choice. Whether you or anyone else thinks it's hypocritical or not is irrelevant, they didn't want to do it so they shouldn't have had to.
 
Hamilton dampened down the claim saying he got "carried away". In two tweets, Hamilton said: "Guys, my comments on recent podcast shouldn't be taken seriously. Got carried away, certainly no rabbit slamming or orders to kill!


"Font Romeu survival session with French Marines v educational, so apologies to give wrong impression, all exaggerated for laughs I'm afraid
Click to expand...

Some sanctimonious people out there..
 
ncurd said:
As to Fish there's hypocracy everywhere on that front. Plenty of vegetarians will eat fish in this country. We have stringent humane killing laws on livestock but we're quite happy for Fish to suffocate to death. I agree with you on principal comepletely but reality in a lot of people minds is radically different.
Click to expand...

Only those who have never come across the term pescatarian!
 
RedruthRFC said:
IMO the reason that the thread isn't progressing is that nobody is willing or able to explain to people with out opinion why you're not a hypocrite if you are prepared to eat meat but not to kill it yourself.
Click to expand...
That's because you are there's no explanation out of it.

The reality is that people are hypocrits and don't want to kill animals.

I see this as a bit of argument about whether people should judged on whether they wish to hypocritical about this topic and whether it should reflect poorly on them in a team building exercise.

A lot of that has to do with circumstance of how they were asked to do it in my book which is why I won't comment on this particular case as I don't know the actual details.

But I think it's really easy to dismiss as know they should totally killed them as they are not vegetarians. The world isn't that binary.
 
This all comes down to you taking the stance that asking a meat eater to kill something in order to eat is is unreasonable... yet you can't actually explain why, without resorting to "well, like... that's just my opinion, man".
 
RedruthRFC said:
Only those who have never come across the term pescatarian!
Click to expand...
Still same issue in my book plenty won't eat Lamb Chop because he's fluffy but happy to eat Fish. It's riddled with hypocrisy in my book.

Best overheard comment on this subject I was aghast at "Oh I won't eat duck, what's a duck ever done?" I wanted to ask what the smeg has a chicken ever done.
 
I mean I could possibly justify not wanting to kill a rabbit to eat. I could say that the rabbit I buy from a supermarket was raised and killed with little agency from myself (outside of myself as a commercial consumer of meat), and so its fate is sealed - whereas I don't want to be directly responsible for the death of an animal, when in reality there are plenty of animals in a supermarket which are already dead and could possibly be wasted.

That argument holds some water, although I certainly believe hunting and killing an animal gives you more of an appreciation that what you were eating was once a living thing.

All that said it's besides the point a bit, as players were almost certainly not forced or coerced to kill the animals. People are painting some kind of bizarre Milgram experiment scenario, which certainly wasn't the case.
 
TRF_nickdnz said:
All that said it's besides the point a bit, as players were almost certainly not forced or coerced to kill the animals. People are painting some kind of bizarre Milgram experiment scenario, which certainly wasn't the case.
Click to expand...

This. I mean, five pages of arguing about something that probably never happened...

I must take off my hat to Jim Hamilton, thats stirring of the highest order.
 
ratsapprentice said:
This all comes down to you taking the stance that asking a meat eater to kill something in order to eat is is unreasonable... yet you can't actually explain why, without resorting to "well, like... that's just my opinion, man".
Click to expand...

so a puppy dog in this situation would be perfectly fine with you?

luckily in this situation i cannot be a hypocrite lol
 
TRF_Peat said:
This. I mean, five pages of arguing about something that probably never happened...

I must take off my hat to Jim Hamilton, thats stirring of the highest order.
Click to expand...
No international rugby or domestic rugby make European forum users go something something.....

Seriously though I think we had equally inane topics last year.

- - - Updated - - -

ratsapprentice said:
If the person regularly eats dog meat, then yes.
Click to expand...
Who regularly eats Rabbit meat?


Sorry couldn't help myself. But I've had it like 2 or 3 times in my life and regularly eat non standard meats if it's on menu.
 
Actually in rural Britain it is TBH.

I have eaten Rabbit multiple times, esp after a shoot.

Scotland as well it isn't uncommon.

(although again prob more of a rural thing)
 

Similar threads

H
New additions for Cotter?
Replies
1
Views
760
ajwffc
ajwffc
Will
Vern Cotter as next Scotland Head Coach
Replies
13
Views
2K
big ginger 8
big ginger 8
F
The Vernon Pugh cup?
Replies
0
Views
920
feicarsinn
F

Latest posts

Top