V Bookie: Super15 R12 Chiefs - Highlanders

[TRF_RC]

Liam Messam try. Game over. And i lost my bet as well

 

[TRF_RC]

Oops, i just declared Highlanders were the winners by 7+ points. Of course the Chiefs were the winners, will have that rectified ASAP.
Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Amobokoboko]

Yes, but lost my bet ( Chiefs by less then7)

 

[Amobokoboko]

Is Kade Poki playing??? I just checked my fantasy league and he's got 0

He got injured after 10 minutes and got replaced.

 

[Darwin]

Congrats to the Chiefs. They certainly deserved the win as they were definitely the best team on the day. Liam Messem and Hika Elliot were the pick of the Chiefs forwards for me, both having huge work-rates. Kahui looked very good at centre, and Muliaina looked good at fullback. Masaga looked very dangerous, almost always beating the first tackle, and it was great to see Sivivatu looking dangerous with the ball in hand.

The Highlanders will be disappointed, but they didn't deserve the win. Losing about half the team to injury certainly didn't help, with Kade Poki ruled out in the warm-ups, and James Paterson, Siale Piutau, Adam Thomson, and Bronson Murray all leaving the field with injures. Jason Rutledge looked great for the Highlanders in the first half before he was strangely replaced at half time (another injury?), while Nasi Manu also impressed at number 8 with his strong ball carrying. Sopoaga had a mixed game (though much better than I thought he would have), he made a couple of great line breaks (one leading to Rutledges try) and defended well, but his handling and decision making let him down at times. He certainly looked very promising. Robbie Robinson had a bit of a shocker on the wing defensively, slipping off at least 4-5 tackles, though he's never been a strong defender (or played on the wing that I can recall). Ben Smith was again the standout Highlanders back - brilliant under the high ball, solid in defense, very dangerous when he got the ball in hand (which was unfortunately not that much), and his cleaning up at the back probably saved a couple more Chiefs tries.

He got injured after 10 minutes and got replaced.

No Poki didn't even get on the field. He was replaced in the starting lineup by James Paterson, who was injured after 10 mins and replaced by Matt Saunders.

 

[Amobokoboko]

Sorry I thought he was injured, anyway. I will stop betting on the Chiefs the score didn't change for 30min and then the last minute bang they did it again. Really happy they won. Next week they have a bye so a good moment to work on the weaknesses.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Chiefs have a few more games before their next bye Amoko...

 

[Amobokoboko]

Woops, added it wrongly in my agenda. My bad

 

[Larksea]

good game overall, very intense - heck it was one of the more intense games of the season.

I wasn't sure who I was supporting untill 5min into the game and I started shouting for the chiefs even though I did want the highlanders to win and stay in the top 6. Chiefs also denied them the bonus point. Was interesting because the Tah's - force game this weekend the Tah's basically gave the force a bonus point right at the end of the game but not kicking a penalty that was basically right in front.

was pretty disapointed with Donald though. In genral his distribution and positional kicking is good and he's making a lot of ground kicking penalties to touch. And for sure the backline is much more organised when he's on the field. But he hasn't been running the ball much and his usual high level of energy on defence isn't there which makes me wonder if he's maybe still carrying that injury. He ended up forced into making some runs towards the end of the game and looked very dangerous, broke tackles and made good offloads. Two knock on though in very tough situatuions could very well have ended up as trys. Goal kicking has been a real worry. Seems to miss too many in front even though he's kicking them from the sidelines ok.

Best players for the chiefs.

Kahui - Chiefs player of the day IMO. Brilliant, he's so good at coming up with big plays that change the momemtum if the game. There was one huge hit he made then stayed down and my head went into my hands in dispare but thank god he was ok lol! Such a massive shame we havn't seen more of Tana at 12 - would have really helped Kahui's game, sweany has been ok at best but he's not a distributer.

Messam - Huge workrate as always, high accuracy, stinging defence, couple of signature runs swatting off players and gaining big meters, a really impressive passing game. He literally played Thompson off the field in a huge driving tackle. he is IMO the form 6 or 8 in NZ - not Thompson, in the two games they have gone head to head this year Messam has been the better of the two. The game this year is hugely physlical and a huge number of players are getting injured and really hurting yet messam is still going strong even though he's played every minute of every game and he doesn't look like he's slowing down at all.

Leonard - Clearly outplayed Cowan as he did kahn fotuali'i and Alby mathewson in those head to heads. Has played well every game this season.

Fritz Lee - Great to finally have someone big enough to help messam out in the physical stuff yet like messam he's still very mobile.

Mils - ~80-90 running meters, safe as houses.

masaga - was the danger man again, also made some good tackles.

Hika Elliot - better lineout throwing, back to what you would expect from hika.

Best player for the Highlanders was Ben Smith, he really is in golden form and would be a sure selection for the AB's in this form.

 

[Darwin]

good game overall, very intense - heck it was one of the more intense games of the season.

I wasn't sure who I was supporting untill 5min into the game and I started shouting for the chiefs even though I did want the highlanders to win and stay in the top 6. Chiefs also denied them the bonus point. Was interesting because the Tah's - force game this weekend the Tah's basically gave the force a bonus point right at the end of the game but not kicking a penalty that was basically right in front.

was pretty disapointed with Donald though. In genral his distribution and positional kicking is good and he's making a lot of ground kicking penalties to touch. And for sure the backline is much more organised when he's on the field. But he hasn't been running the ball much and his usual high level of energy on defence isn't there which makes me wonder if he's maybe still carrying that injury. He ended up forced into making some runs towards the end of the game and looked very dangerous, broke tackles and made good offloads. Two knock on though in very tough situatuions could very well have ended up as trys. Goal kicking has been a real worry. Seems to miss too many in front even though he's kicking them from the sidelines ok.

Best players for the chiefs.

Kahui - Chiefs player of the day IMO. Brilliant, he's so good at coming up with big plays that change the momemtum if the game. There was one huge hit he made then stayed down and my head went into my hands in dispare but thank god he was ok lol! Such a massive shame we havn't seen more of Tana at 12 - would have really helped Kahui's game, sweany has been ok at best but he's not a distributer.

Messam - Huge workrate as always, high accuracy, stinging defence, couple of signature runs swatting off players and gaining big meters, a really impressive passing game. He literally played Thompson off the field in a huge driving tackle. he is IMO the form 6 or 8 in NZ - not Thompson, in the two games they have gone head to head this year Messam has been the better of the two. The game this year is hugely physlical and a huge number of players are getting injured and really hurting yet messam is still going strong even though he's played every minute of every game and he doesn't look like he's slowing down at all.

Leonard - Clearly outplayed Cowan as he did kahn fotuali'i and Alby mathewson in those head to heads. Has played well every game this season.

Fritz Lee - Great to finally have someone big enough to help messam out in the physical stuff yet like messam he's still very mobile.

Mils - ~80-90 running meters, safe as houses.

masaga - was the danger man again, also made some good tackles.

Hika Elliot - better lineout throwing, back to what you would expect from hika.

Best player for the Highlanders was Ben Smith, he really is in golden form and would be a sure selection for the AB's in this form.

Agree with the vast majority. I would like to say one of Donald's 'knock-ons' was under no pressure at all (when he tried to throw a skip pass that ended up going about 5 metres forward and only 5 metres across the field). Donald certainly didn't help his AB's chances with that performance.

I thought Messem had a good game. I don't think he outplayed Thomson though, as Thomson was looking very good before going off injured. Likewise Messem certainly didn't outplay Thomson in the first match between the two, as Thomson was outstanding that match - I think he was named man of the match. I agree Messem has had a good season, but I don't think he had been overall as impressive as Thomson this season (though I do think Messems game is more suited to test rugby than Thomsons).

I'm certainly not convinced about Leonard. He had a solid game in my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. His distribution is ok (and can be slow at times), his defense and running game was solid (if unspectacular), but he does posses a very good box kick. I think he is probably still the 5th ranked halfback in the country (behind Cowan, Weepu, Ellis, and Mathewson).

Further bad news for the Highlanders, with both Siale Piutau (torn adductor), and James Paterson (ruptured pectoral muscle) ruled out for the season, and Adam Thomson (rib damage) ruled out for a month.

The wing situation is particularity worrying given Poki's ongoing issues with knee injuries. I'd imagine the Highlanders will call up a couple of wings into their squad, though who they will be I'm not sure. In previous seasons teams have been able to call up players from other franchises wider training group, but I don't know if they are able to this year (if they are Nafi Tuitavake and Ashee Tuala would be good options). If they stick within the region Ben Atiga, Buxton Popoali'i, or Joe Hill may be options. Hopefully we will now see young Veainu get some starts on the wing, and may even see Ben Smith forced to play on the wing, with Robinson at fullback (as the experiment with Robinson on the wing and Smith at fullback failed in my opinion, as Robinson got exposed time and time again on defense..).

Losing Thomson is a big loss too. I wouldn't mind seeing Nick Croswell get a start for the Highlanders at 6, though they may be tempted again to bring in Donnelly and play Hoeata at 6.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Crusaders just brought in Brent Ward so it looks like you can bring in external players - but I don't think he was actually in a WTS...

 

[smartcooky]

Crusaders just brought in Brent Ward so it looks like you can bring in external players - but I don't think he was actually in a WTS...

Correct, he's not. Tom Taylor and Steve Alfield are in the WTS and Ryan Crotty is the the main squad

The only problem I can see for the Crusaders in getting Brent Ward in, is that I think the rules will require them to drop a player from the main squad if Ward is named in the 22.

 

[Larksea]

Agree with the vast majority. I would like to say one of Donald's 'knock-ons' was under no pressure at all (when he tried to throw a skip pass that ended up going about 5 metres forward and only 5 metres across the field). Donald certainly didn't help his AB's chances with that performance.

I thought Messem had a good game. I don't think he outplayed Thomson though, as Thomson was looking very good before going off injured. Likewise Messem certainly didn't outplay Thomson in the first match between the two, as Thomson was outstanding that match - I think he was named man of the match. I agree Messem has had a good season, but I don't think he had been overall as impressive as Thomson this season (though I do think Messems game is more suited to test rugby than Thomsons).

I'm certainly not convinced about Leonard. He had a solid game in my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. His distribution is ok (and can be slow at times), his defense and running game was solid (if unspectacular), but he does posses a very good box kick. I think he is probably still the 5th ranked halfback in the country (behind Cowan, Weepu, Ellis, and Mathewson).

Further bad news for the Highlanders, with both Siale Piutau (torn adductor), and James Paterson (ruptured pectoral muscle) ruled out for the season, and Adam Thomson (rib damage) ruled out for a month.

The wing situation is particularity worrying given Poki's ongoing issues with knee injuries. I'd imagine the Highlanders will call up a couple of wings into their squad, though who they will be I'm not sure. In previous seasons teams have been able to call up players from other franchises wider training group, but I don't know if they are able to this year (if they are Nafi Tuitavake and Ashee Tuala would be good options). If they stick within the region Ben Atiga, Buxton Popoali'i, or Joe Hill may be options. Hopefully we will now see young Veainu get some starts on the wing, and may even see Ben Smith forced to play on the wing, with Robinson at fullback (as the experiment with Robinson on the wing and Smith at fullback failed in my opinion, as Robinson got exposed time and time again on defense..).

Losing Thomson is a big loss too. I wouldn't mind seeing Nick Croswell get a start for the Highlanders at 6, though they may be tempted again to bring in Donnelly and play Hoeata at 6.

No Donald didn't help his chances I agree, I do think he's still carying that injury. for sure he doesn't look to be running 100%.

I agree Leonard did't light up the park but he clearly had the better of Cowan, He had a much better game that Mathewson (who had a poor kicking game that day) when the chiefs played the blues and he was a lot better than kahn fotuali'i in the chiefs - crucaders game. He's been very good at least every game this year and the chiefs (foster) have IMO lost games by bringing him off early. Clearly better than 5th best 9 in NZ having the edge on so many head to heads and he stacks up very well statistically. I think he's leading all NZ 9's in offloads and some other attacking stats.

People tend to underrate the chiefs and chief players. Some of the comments about Messam and Leonard going around in particular. Was reading in another thread people calling Messam too error prone for the all blacks. But statistically this year he's one of the least error prone of the current prospects even though he has performed more hitups than any of them (getting more linebreaks in the prosses) he's 2nd only to thompson in number of tackles made, and he leads the whole super15 in the pick 'n drive by a large margin. And he's less than half as likely to concede a penalty than Adam Thompson.

I think the crap the chiefs get stems from instability in their tight 5. Player for Player they have the weakest and least experienced tight 5 of all the NZ teams - the only NZ team without first choice/regular all black tight 5 players. And players like Donald, Messam & Leonard dont get enough credit for the work they do considering the lack of experience and ability in front of them. And this year in particular the questionable coaching...

 

[Larksea]

will be good to see Ryan Crotty get a run, been a real shame not to see more of him this year. Kind of player you expect to be a super level regular pushing for international selecttion. Better player than many mid fielders running around for other teams that's for sure.

 

[Darwin]

No Donald didn't help his chances I agree, I do think he's still carying that injury. for sure he doesn't look to be running 100%.

I agree Leonard did't light up the park but he clearly had the better of Cowan, He had a much better game that Mathewson (who had a poor kicking game that day) when the chiefs played the blues and he was a lot better than kahn fotuali'i in the chiefs - crucaders game. He's been very good at least every game this year and the chiefs (foster) have IMO lost games by bringing him off early. Clearly better than 5th best 9 in NZ having the edge on so many head to heads and he stacks up very well statistically. I think he's leading all NZ 9's in offloads and some other attacking stats.

People tend to underrate the chiefs and chief players. Some of the comments about Messam and Leonard going around in particular. Was reading in another thread people calling Messam too error prone for the all blacks. But statistically this year he's one of the least error prone of the current prospects even though he has performed more hitups than any of them (getting more linebreaks in the prosses) he's 2nd only to thompson in number of tackles made, and he leads the whole super15 in the pick 'n drive by a large margin. And he's less than half as likely to concede a penalty than Adam Thompson.

I think the crap the chiefs get stems from instability in their tight 5. Player for Player they have the weakest and least experienced tight 5 of all the NZ teams - the only NZ team without first choice/regular all black tight 5 players. And players like Donald, Messam & Leonard dont get enough credit for the work they do considering the lack of experience and ability in front of them. And this year in particular the questionable coaching...

I agree some people tend to underrate Chiefs players, however some people tend to overrate Chiefs players.... the truth I think lies somewhere in the middle

I didn't think Leonard was clearly better than Cowan; I thought they both had similar games, with neither standing out. The strength of Leonard's game is his accurate box kicking in my opinion, however the rest of his game hasn't really been that impressive this year. His passing is usually pretty quick, but can still be erratic at times, and he does make a few handling errors. His running game is pretty good, but nowhere near as dangerous as it was when he first burst onto the scene. Jimmy Cowan and Andy Ellis in particular have clearly had more impressive seasons in my opinion, and I think Alby Mathewson has also been more impressive (even though Leonard got the better in their head-to-head, with Mathewson's limited kicking game exposed in the wet conditions).

Messem has been very impressive. He does make a few errors (though no more than Adam Thomson), however that is due to him playing like a playmaker at times. Strangely (for a Highlanders supporter) I would probably pick Messem in the AB's ahead of Thomson, as I think his physical game suits test rugby better than Thomson's does (and Thomson still gives away a lot of stupid penalties, which annoys me...).

will be good to see Ryan Crotty get a run, been a real shame not to see more of him this year. Kind of player you expect to be a super level regular pushing for international selecttion. Better player than many mid fielders running around for other teams that's for sure.

I agree, I'm a bit of a fan of Crotty as well... I wish he had come down to the Highlanders this season!

 

[Larksea]

I agree some people tend to underrate Chiefs players, however some people tend to overrate Chiefs players.... the truth I think lies somewhere in the middle

I didn't think Leonard was clearly better than Cowan; I thought they both had similar games, with neither standing out. The strength of Leonard's game is his accurate box kicking in my opinion, however the rest of his game hasn't really been that impressive this year. His passing is usually pretty quick, but can still be erratic at times, and he does make a few handling errors. His running game is pretty good, but nowhere near as dangerous as it was when he first burst onto the scene. Jimmy Cowan and Andy Ellis in particular have clearly had more impressive seasons in my opinion, and I think Alby Mathewson has also been more impressive (even though Leonard got the better in their head-to-head, with Mathewson's limited kicking game exposed in the wet conditions).

Messem has been very impressive. He does make a few errors (though no more than Adam Thomson), however that is due to him playing like a playmaker at times. Strangely (for a Highlanders supporter) I would probably pick Messem in the AB's ahead of Thomson, as I think his physical game suits test rugby better than Thomson's does (and Thomson still gives away a lot of stupid penalties, which annoys me...).



I agree, I'm a bit of a fan of Crotty as well... I wish he had come down to the Highlanders this season!

Yip I'll pretty much agree to that but the one thing that the one thing really worth noting when comparing the halfbacks is that out of all the contenders Leonard is working behind the weakest tight 5 of them all.

Andy Elis in particular gets an armchair ride behind the best forward pack in the whole competition, his performances in particular are really hard to put into context. the Highlanders pack isn't far behind and cowan has had it pretty easy with them - though cowan does display very good vision at times and should be commended on that. The blues pack as well have been very good to mathewson and have produced some of the fastest ball of the NZ teams and he's done well with it. But also there have been times when the pack hasn't been as good and mathewson has really struggled. But at the same time all season leonard has had the weakest tight 5 of them all in front of him yet he's been either good or very good every single game even though at times he's had some really rubbish ball to work with. If you look at that last game both sides had pretty poor quality ball but the chiefs made more from the ball they got and alot of the credit for that should go to Leonard.

The hardest thing to do is try and imagine/judge for example how in general Cowan would do behind the chiefs tight 5... or maybe how Leonard would do behind the Crucaders tight 5.

Good example would be last season when the chiefs tight 5 was in an even worse state because of injury and the team was having a nightmare run. Also Calum Bruce who had been quite reliable for a few seasons was utter rubish and Kahui was judged to be in crap form and was considered very lucky to make the AB's. yet I was totally confident he would shine in the AB's - and he did till he was injured.

Shame we dont have a couple of proper trial matches. maybe have a couple of Nth vs. south games with some of the top players removed (like McCaw, Mealamu, carter, thorn, mills ect) give the players a chance to stake a claim in a more controlled/neutral environment.

 

[Darwin]

Yip I'll pretty much agree to that but the one thing that the one thing really worth noting when comparing the halfbacks is that out of all the contenders Leonard is working behind the weakest tight 5 of them all.

Andy Elis in particular gets an armchair ride behind the best forward pack in the whole competition, his performances in particular are really hard to put into context. the Highlanders pack isn't far behind and cowan has had it pretty easy with them - though cowan does display very good vision at times and should be commended on that. The blues pack as well have been very good to mathewson and have produced some of the fastest ball of the NZ teams and he's done well with it. But also there have been times when the pack hasn't been as good and mathewson has really struggled. But at the same time all season leonard has had the weakest tight 5 of them all in front of him yet he's been either good or very good every single game even though at times he's had some really rubbish ball to work with. If you look at that last game both sides had pretty poor quality ball but the chiefs made more from the ball they got and alot of the credit for that should go to Leonard.

The hardest thing to do is try and imagine/judge for example how in general Cowan would do behind the chiefs tight 5... or maybe how Leonard would do behind the Crucaders tight 5.

Good example would be last season when the chiefs tight 5 was in an even worse state because of injury and the team was having a nightmare run. Also Calum Bruce who had been quite reliable for a few seasons was utter rubish and Kahui was judged to be in crap form and was considered very lucky to make the AB's. yet I was totally confident he would shine in the AB's - and he did till he was injured.

Shame we dont have a couple of proper trial matches. maybe have a couple of Nth vs. south games with some of the top players removed (like McCaw, Mealamu, carter, thorn, mills ect) give the players a chance to stake a claim in a more controlled/neutral environment.

I agree, judging halfbacks can be particularly hard, as much can depend on how well the forward pack is going. One thing I would say in favour of Andy Ellis is that he has looked better than Kahn Fotuali'i, despite them both having the same "armchair ride". Fotuali'i is a top quality player, and played ok behind a Crusaders pack, while Ellis has been exceptional. A great example of this was against the Chiefs, when Ellis came off the bench and the Crusaders looked an instantly more dangerous team. Personally I'm not a big fan of Ellis (as I think he struggles at the top level), but he has looked exceptional so far this year (whether he would look near as good behind a Chiefs pack is certainly another question....).

 

[ranger]

I agree, judging halfbacks can be particularly hard, as much can depend on how well the forward pack is going. One thing I would say in favour of Andy Ellis is that he has looked better than Kahn Fotuali'i, despite them both having the same "armchair ride". Fotuali'i is a top quality player, and played ok behind a Crusaders pack, while Ellis has been exceptional. A great example of this was against the Chiefs, when Ellis came off the bench and the Crusaders looked an instantly more dangerous team. Personally I'm not a big fan of Ellis (as I think he struggles at the top level), but he has looked exceptional so far this year (whether he would look near as good behind a Chiefs pack is certainly another question....).

I think Ellis is more suited to the Crusaders style of play than Fotuali'i which needs to be kept in mind.
Ellis is a definite "cog" player. He doesn't do anything exceptionally well but he performs all the functions required of him as a lesser part of the Crusaders machine.
Fotuali'i is a deadset play maker, when he gets the ball in his hands he always looks to make something happen. That becomes an issue though because not only is he not expected to do anything special, but in sizeing up his options he actually slows the crusaders down.
I really beleive that in a less structured side Fotuali'i would shine, hes very similar to Weepu and would be a great fit in the Hurricanes right now..

 

[Sam Owen]

I really beleive that in a less structured side Fotuali'i would shine, hes very similar to Weepu and would be a great fit in the Hurricanes right now..

Yeah I thought that the 'Canes were all good in the halfback department but as of the last game I saw, I am mistaken. Eaton and Keats, while good prospects, both had things go against them in their last game to put it nicely.

 

[Darwin]

I think Ellis is more suited to the Crusaders style of play than Fotuali'i which needs to be kept in mind.
Ellis is a definite "cog" player. He doesn't do anything exceptionally well but he performs all the functions required of him as a lesser part of the Crusaders machine.
Fotuali'i is a deadset play maker, when he gets the ball in his hands he always looks to make something happen. That becomes an issue though because not only is he not expected to do anything special, but in sizeing up his options he actually slows the crusaders down.
I really beleive that in a less structured side Fotuali'i would shine, hes very similar to Weepu and would be a great fit in the Hurricanes right now..

I agree, the Crusaders style of play doesn't really suit Fotuali'i. I wasn't trying to downgrade Fotuali'i (as I think is a top class player) but rather point out that playing behind a dominant forward pack doesn't instantly mean you are going to look impressive - you still have to play very well (which Ellis is doing). I do agree that Fotuali'i would look much better with the Hurricanes (and the Canes would look much better having him...)