Transfers rumours

[SelimNiai]

Nicky Robinson leaving Bristol at end of season. Replacement for Preistland at Scarlets?

 

[lynam1104]

Niall Morris to Leinster is doing the rounds.

Heard this one a lot, not sure if theres anything behind it or just some people putting 2 and 2 together to make 5. Would be a pretty good deal IMO fine player and since Hudson and Conway got fed up with a lack of game time we look at little understocked out wide at times.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Word here is Morris has pretty much signed a new deal.

 

[big ginger 8]

Some people saying Morris is a done deal to Leinster...

Think the rationale is that with the NIQ quota going down next season it lets us let Kirchner go and sign and NIQ where we need it that bit more like at 9.

Word is James Hart has also been approached but money is an issue and I'm pretty sure he still has a number of years left on his contract.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/M...g-win-needed/story-25892194-detail/story.html

2nd point down.

Crowson is very reliable on his contracts hence why he doesn't mention much. (he is spot no with everything there ATM). Tait went, Parling IS off to Exeter and Salvi and Croft are still in the air .

For him to say that he is expected to sign a new suggest that he hasn't signed anywhere else.

 

[lynam1104]

Some people saying Morris is a done deal to Leinster...

Think the rationale is that with the NIQ quota going down next season it lets us let Kirchner go and sign and NIQ where we need it that bit more like at 9.

Word is James Hart has also been approached but money is an issue and I'm pretty sure he still has a number of years left on his contract.

Pretty sure Hart is on contract till 2017

Will Genia to Leinster.....

 

[TheSaffycen]

If you can pay as much as Stade......

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Pretty sure Hart is on contract till 2017

Will Genia to Leinster.....

Pienaar in Ulster means we couldn't get him does it not?

 

[big ginger 8]

Pienaar in Ulster means we couldn't get him does it not?

Yeah that rule has never been followed...

If it was two of Ludik, VdH and Kirch would have to go and one of Douglas and VdM and Herbst and Botha.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah that rule has never been followed...

If it was two of Ludik, VDH and Kirch would have to go.

Sorry, I forgot the IRFU set it...

9 will be our weakest position next year, I'm gaining a bit of trust with MOC and think him and Sexton could work well, the second half of the Wasps game being the only bad rugby in 2015. Leinster should be real contenders again next year, they'll have a starting 23 as strong as Toulon with everyone fit.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Genia would be a huge signing. Not just in terms ouf quality, but it sends a strong message that we can still go out and get international stars.

 

[Peat]

Yeah that rule has never been followed...

If it was two of Ludik, VdH and Kirch would have to go and one of Douglas and VdM and Herbst and Botha.

Which is why I'm a little skeptical about the 4 NIQs actually being enforced, but that's an argument for another day; it's definitely not in play and that's that.

That said... I can see the IRFU being pretty unhappy about another 9, as that is a weak position for the Irish team. Wonder if they'll try to persuade Marmion to move east...

 

[Groundhog]

Sean Dougall looks to be reuniting with Simon Mannix and James Coughlan in Pau. Understandable. Quite a technically good player, but he was never going to get much meaningful game time with us.

 

[munstermuffin]

Sean Dougall looks to be reuniting with Simon Mannix and James Coughlan in Pau. Understandable. Quite a technically good player, but he was never going to get much meaningful game time with us.

More guaranteed to happen. We won't be offering him new deal and everyone knows he is leaving. He's an excellent player and I'm huge fan of him but the competition is fierce and he wants to be a starter. Pau will be getting a gem. Coughlan will probably just coach there next season.

 

[nickdnz]

They are SH 1st fives and they have kicked on since moving to the NH, Sanchez is one of the best 10's in the world right now, Hernandez was the best 10 in the world 2007/2008.

All off the back of "inferior" NH rugby.

Exactly, the inference is that somehow the NH de-skills the player or makes them unfit or is responsible for this which is just not true - as we see with player like Giteau and JOC etc... who are superb in both hemispheres, additionally plenty of players have come here from Super Rugby and not performed - Steyn (M) being a perfect example.

The fact is the demands are different and they come back different players - not poorer. That's an important difference to make.

Again, since neither Sachez or Hernandez haven't played Super Rugby, it's not as if their form is apt for comparison...Argentina have always selected those players based on their European form.

No one has used the term "inferior" to quote, but there is clearly differences between the competitions that players don't necessarily perform well for one and therefore others, quite possibly because the competitions have different demands. Mesut Oezil was great in the Bundesliga and La Liga, but has failed to perform to his expectations while in the Premiership. I don't think that necessary infers the other two leagues are inferior. It often takes SH players a while to adapt to the NH, but once they have there is a difficulty transitioning back. Sanchez is a great player, but I don't know how well he would do in Super Rugby. Hernandez didn't set the world on fire in South Africa before getting injured. I've always thought a guy like Johnny Wilkinson would have struggled a bit in Super Rugby based on the emphasis on expansive play, while I'd imagine someone like Aaron Cruden really wouldn't do brilliantly in a team like Munster.

If anything, pointing to how well SH fly halves are playing in France seems like it would infer France is an easier competition. And for the record Morne Steyn was very heavily criticized in almost all aspects of the game in his last season of SR (minus goal kicking), so it's not surprising he hasn't found form in France (sadly the Bulls now have to rely on 20 year old genius Handre Pollard...).

 

[goodNumber10]

Again, since neither Sachez or Hernandez haven't played Super Rugby, it's not as if their form is apt for comparison...Argentina have always selected those players based on their European form.

But they are both playing RC which is the best competition in the world (apparently) against Super Rugby players so it's absolutely a worthwhile comparison.

No one has used the term "inferior" to quote,

No, but it is certainly the inference by many NZ posters on here.

there is clearly differences between the competitions that players don't necessarily perform well for one and therefore others, quite possibly because the competitions have different demands. Mesut Oezil was great in the Bundesliga and La Liga, but has failed to perform to his expectations while in the Premiership. I don't think that necessary infers the other two leagues are inferior. It often takes SH players a while to adapt to the NH, but once they have there is a difficulty transitioning back. Sanchez is a great player, but I don't know how well he would do in Super Rugby. Hernandez didn't set the world on fire in South Africa before getting injured. I've always thought a guy like Johnny Wilkinson would have struggled a bit in Super Rugby based on the emphasis on expansive play, while I'd imagine someone like Aaron Cruden really wouldn't do brilliantly in a team like Munster.

As I said that is down to the individual not the competition.

The competition is what it is, plenty of teams play high pace rugby here, the fact individuals chose teams that didn't reflect their skill sets......well, it shows badly on them.

Also the Wilkinson comment is very misinformed, he played a massively expansive and fast game/style when at Newcastle and Toulon.

He gets labeled a kicker/non-running fly half because of Englands world cup year but all through his career he was very happy playing running rugby (lions 2001 anyone?).

The faster the game the happier he tended to be, he had a bullet pass, great decision making and a wicked spin and step.

if anything, pointing to how well SH fly halves are playing in France seems like it would infer France is an easier competition. And for the record Morne Steyn was very heavily criticized in almost all aspects of the game in his last season of SR (minus goal kicking), so it's not surprising he hasn't found form in France (sadly the Bulls now have to rely on 20 year old genius Handre Pollard...).

Everyone gets criticised, the fact is though Steyn continued to play international rugby whilst at Stade, he has been criticised all through his career for these things the fact is he continued to play international rugby for a SH side of the back of NH club rugby.

The point I'm making is its down to the individual. Plenty of guys are fine here and perform well and a few players continue to be selected and perform well at test level.

The issue isn't really going to NH, it's more that NZ and Aus players tend to go when involved in the rarified environment of international rugby/national program and it's their removal from these that tends to impact their fitness/skill levels not leaving super rugby to play NH rugby.

Plenty of SH players in NH rugby still being selected and performing at international level - Louw for example. (Yes I know he's not a 1st5), look at SBW for example.

Out of curiosity how many players in the 1st5 position have gone back, and fine back with a realistic chance of competing - I.e. not at the tail off their career?

 

[nickdnz]

But they are both playing RC which is the best competition in the world (apparently) against Super Rugby players so it's absolutely a worthwhile comparison.

No, but it is certainly the inference by many NZ posters on here.

As I said that is down to the individual not the competition.

The competition is what it is, plenty of teams play high pace rugby here, the fact individuals chose teams that didn't reflect their skill sets......well, it shows badly on them.

Also the Wilkinson comment is very misinformed, he played a massively expansive and fast game/style when at Newcastle and Toulon.

He gets labeled a kicker/non-running fly half because of Englands world cup year but all through his career he was very happy playing running rugby (lions 2001 anyone?).

The faster the game the happier he tended to be, he had a bullet pass, great decision making and a wicked spin and step.



Everyone gets criticised, the fact is though Steyn continued to play international rugby whilst at Stade, he has been criticised all through his career for these things the fact is he continued to play international rugby for a SH side of the back of NH club rugby.

The point I'm making is its down to the individual. Plenty of guys are fine here and perform well and a few players continue to be selected and perform well at test level.

The issue isn't really going to NH, it's more that NZ and Aus players tend to go when involved in the rarified environment of international rugby/national program and it's their removal from these that tends to impact their fitness/skill levels not leaving super rugby to play NH rugby.

Plenty of SH players in NH rugby still being selected and performing at international level - Louw for example. (Yes I know he's not a 1st5), look at SBW for example.

Out of curiosity how many players in the 1st5 position have gone back, and fine back with a realistic chance of competing - I.e. not at the tail off their career?

1. Sanchez and Hernandez are not good comparisons because we are comparing their form in getting selected for internationals based off Super Rugby and the player pools of those that compete in it. Italy compete in the 6 Nations - are you suggesting that the level of Italy's players in the 6 Nations means they are of the same standard as England's? Realistically there are only one or two players from Argentina I'd expect to make the All Blacks and a fair amount I don't think would be selected for Super Rugby.

2. Perhaps your inference is based on your own complex, as I'm not sure how you interpreted Mr Fish's response as a criticism of NH rugby (but you certainly are happy to get very defensive).

3. Well from watching hundreds of matches featuring Wilkinson - both for Newcastle and especially England and Toulon - I'm pretty darn confident in my assessment. He generally stands too deep, relied heavily on very creative centers to generate creative play and lacked any real running game. His international try record compared to other SH 1st 5/8ths is pretty terrible. Defensively he was brilliant, was a very good kicker of the ball. I don't believe he would have excelled in SR where the emphasis on tactical kicking and set-piece play has been traditionally less. Again I'd imagine Cruden's creative running game but limited distance on his kicks would probably be of limited help in a winter game in Thomond Park.

4. Steyn was also selected while playing in Europe, which does to show more on HMs terrible selection decisions (which essentially is his love of old players he had with the Bulls back in 2009).

5. You may be right that their skill decreases as they are not part of international rugby. Which again going back to Mr Fish's point - it's clearly a risk for Foley to leave Super Rugby (and thus selection for Australia) as they may decrease.

6. SBW isn't a good example as it's not as if his level of rugby didn't improve drastically upon coming to Super Rugby.

7. Well, off the top of my head Luke McAlister, David Hill, Francois Steyn, Daniel Bowden (soon), Riki Flutey (at a stretch granted), Daniel Carter (who came back injury riddled), Butch James.

 

[goodNumber10]

1. Sanchez and Hernandez are not good comparisons because we are comparing their form in getting selected for internationals based off Super Rugby and the player pools of those that compete in it.

No that's what you are comparing.

2. Perhaps your inference is based on your own complex, as I'm not sure how you interpreted Mr Fish's response as a criticism of NH rugby (but you certainly are happy to get very defensive).

My comments about criticizing NH Rugby is aimed at a broader perspective not directly at Mr Fish. And of course i'm defensive, it's tiring to constantly read New Zealanders criticsiing NH rugby with unfounded observations.

3. Well from watching hundreds of matches featuring Wilkinson - both for Newcastle and especially England and Toulon - I'm pretty darn confident in my assessment. He generally stands too deep, relied heavily on very creative centers to generate creative play and lacked any real running game. His international try record compared to other SH 1st 5/8ths is pretty terrible. Defensively he was brilliant, was a very good kicker of the ball.

For a man who watched 100's of Johnny wilkinson games you don't' seem to have a very good picture of how he actually played.

The test tries thing is completely irrelevent as it doesn't reflect the team he played in at all.

6. SBW isn't a good example as it's not as if his level of rugby didn't improve drastically upon coming to Super Rugby.

You are joking right?

7. Well, off the top of my head Luke McAlister, David Hill, Francois Steyn, Daniel Bowden (soon), Riki Flutey (at a stretch granted), Daniel Carter (who came back injury riddled), Butch James.

Carter spent 2 months in France, payed one game and came back with a ruptured hammy, how is that even relevent to this discussion - he never actually played up here?
Dan Bowden hasn't even gone back yet, yet you are already claiming he won't make it/etc...?

Neither fo those players are genuinely relevent to this discussion.

James continued to be selected for SA during his time in the Aviva, and on return continued to play excellent super rugby for both the Sharks and Lions - he came back in 2012 aged 33 - his chances of international rugby were very slim.

David Hill? LOL! come on, he was a one cap wonder - he was garbage for Bristol, and went back to New Zealand aged 32 with his best years firmly behind him.

So out of your list there is a sum total of Two players who came back poorer, with a realistic chance of getting back into their national set up and one did and one didn't.

However in other positions there are plenty of guys who've made the transition from NH rugby to Super Rugby & RC rugby completely dispelling the myth that NH rugby turns them into poorer players.


Anyway, as interesting as this myth debunking is, we're probably getting very off topic

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I really think this is a silly argument, there is no trend in how an SH player will do coming North regardless of position. Nick Evans, Felipe Contepomi, David Holwell, Rocky Elsom, Chris Masoe, Dan Parks, Isa Nacewa, Doug Howlett, Jared Payne, Julian Salvi, BJ Botha, Ali Williams, Matt Giteau, Hosea Gear etc... have all played some of the best rugby of their lives in the North. Of course there'll be the likes Jean de Villiers, CJ Van der Linde, the Steyns, Rococoko etc... who struggle. Saying that an SH player moving to the NH is harmful for his game is like saying that Irish players can't hack France because Johnny Sexton didn't like it.

 

[Groundhog]

Paddy Butler to Pau along with Dougall rumoured. He would be a loss to us, despite not being first team. This is really making me hope O'Callaghan keeps performing, and O'Donoghue breaks into the team. Really clever signings by Mannix though. Butler is a quality player who is really up to the standard.