Third Test: Australia v British and Irish Lions (06/07/13)

[munstermuffin]

Ha I'm sure it was all 1 way chat as Rala hard to stop when he gets going. Probably telling 1 of his veteran stories

 

[Rich Taff]

Don't think it comparable and we should just appreciate 2 great players. I do admit I admire Dagg more due to his past and well how he overcame problems but on field they are 2 great talents

No 'Like' button, so 'Like'!

Also, loved Sexton's comment 'it was great to get my first Wales cap'. Shows the solidarity in the team.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Don't think it comparable and we should just appreciate 2 great players. I do admit I admire Dagg more due to his past and well how he overcame problems but on field they are 2 great talents

Halfpenny's style of play (kick everything back) is only successful in that specific system: play it down one end and then slot penalties on the back of the forwards. Maybe this is why I am biased against him; players like that aren't really successful in NZ. Think of the fullbacks in Super rugby, all are better attackers than Halfpenny, although not all as good positionally and obviously goal kicking wise. In SA he would probably fit in as Kirshner only ever lobs up bombs from the back too.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I wouldn't say that's particularly his style of play, more the style of play Wales want from.
He's shown a lot more attacking this Lions tour, and has impressed me going forwards ball-in-hand.

I still think he's slightly overrated as a fullback due to his goalkicking which, as said above, isn't a core competency of a fullback, but I'd still say he's one of the top 15s in rugby at the moment. That's even more impressive when you think he only really started playing there full time during the world cup (was it the world cup semi?).

 

[donmcdazzle]

I wouldn't say that's particularly his style of play, more the style of play Wales want from.
He's shown a lot more attacking this Lions tour, and has impressed me going forwards ball-in-hand.

I still think he's slightly overrated as a fullback due to his goalkicking which, as said above, isn't a core competency of a fullback, but I'd still say he's one of the top 15s in rugby at the moment. That's even more impressive when you think he only really started playing there full time during the world cup (was it the world cup semi?).

He only really did one thing with the ball at the end of the game on that kick return, he had done nothing before that all tour. I've yet to see him beat a player one on one or make a line break. Handy link player, sure, but he doesn't create bugger all or beat tacklers or anything. Don't get me wrong, he does the basics very well indeed, and as you say that's all that is required of him.

 

[Larksea]

Leigh is hampered by the playing style of Gats, he is better than Daggs, he has a more complete game, running, tackling, kicking.
Daggs only has 2 of those attributes

sooo are you saying Dagg can't do one of those three? Obviously not running or tackling, By kicking maybe you mean goal kicking because Dagg has arguably the best punt in the world. Maybe you'd be surprised to know that Dagg can kick for goal if needed but doesn't because generally he's playing in the same side as the greatest points scorer in Rugby History.

Halfpenny is a good player, but reality is he would struggle to make a match day 22 for the all blacks let alone a 30man squad, he wouldn't be selected for his goal kicking (who would drop out? Dagg or Ben Smith? no thank you). I enjoyed this series but when all is said and done The French side the All Blacks just sweaped is probably better than the Wallabies side of the last 3 weeks.

I can hardly remember seeing halfpenny really tested at the back he took a lot of kicks but none under any real pressure compared to what Dagg defused against the french.

For the Aussies. This surely has to be the last stand of Dingo Deans, 6 years and the only major win was the 2011 tri nations which in the greater scheme of things was only a minor win as the springboks and All Blacks rested top players ahead of the world cup, I think we are now resigned to the fact that in WC years the tri nations/rugby championship is a minor trophy. 6 years, no Bledesloe cups and 3:15 against the All Blacks. The killer is he has some of the best talent in the world at his disposal, so many of the losses like this one are not down to just having a weak player base. There are too many selection, gameplan, style and attitude issues in the wallabies to ignore. To many players in and out of favor and in particular too many instances where he was out thought by Graham Henry the squad has never been settled even after 6 years. Also some other unforgivable losses like Samoa, and the lost to Scotland and there is like 1 scot in a lions test 22.

 

[Jbobo]

He only really did one thing with the ball at the end of the game on that kick return, he had done nothing before that all tour. I've yet to see him beat a player one on one or make a line break. Handy link player, sure, but he doesn't create bugger all or beat tacklers or anything. Don't get me wrong, he does the basics very well indeed, and as you say that's all that is required of him.

You literally haven't watched any of his games then. Including the very last match he played. Numpty

 

[donmcdazzle]

You literally haven't watched any of his games then. Including the very last match he played. Numpty

Well I watched all of the Lions tour matches, and he did nothing with the ball in any of them bar returning the kick and setting up North at the end of the last test. I've also watched all of his games v the AB's, where he has done a grand total of sweet FA. I watched all the Welsh world cup games, and the odd 6 nations game. So yes I have watched a few of his games.

 

[admartian]

Don't think it comparable and we should just appreciate 2 great players. I do admit I admire Dagg more due to his past and well how he overcame problems but on field they are 2 great talents

Agreed.

I really do rate Halfpenny for what he does. World rugby is full of good fullbacks at the moment, Halfpenny, Dagg, Ben Smith, Beale, Piutau has played well, Robbie Robinson has been underrated, Anscombe has kicked well (ok, apart from the kciking this is a bit of straw reach ) etc etc.

Apologies if I've misse dout some other FBs.

For the Aussies. This surely has to be the last stand of Dingo Deans, 6 years and the only major win was the 2011 tri nations which in the greater scheme of things was only a minor win as the springboks and All Blacks rested top players ahead of the world cup, I think we are now resigned to the fact that in WC years the tri nations/rugby championship is a minor trophy. 6 years, no Bledesloe cups and 3:15 against the All Blacks. The killer is he has some of the best talent in the world at his disposal, so many of the losses like this one are not down to just having a weak player base. There are too many selection, gameplan, style and attitude issues in the wallabies to ignore. To many players in and out of favor and in particular too many instances where he was out thought by Graham Henry the squad has never been settled even after 6 years. Also some other unforgivable losses like Samoa, and the lost to Scotland and there is like 1 scot in a lions test 22.

Agreed. Their best against the ABs last year was an 18-18 all draw that the aussie media went nuts about.
The Wallabies detriment with Dingo has been to the benefit of most nations.

They'll be scary under Jake White I reckon.

 

[dullonien]

Halfpenny is a good player, but reality is he would struggle to make a match day 22 for the all blacks let alone a 30man squad, he wouldn't be selected for his goal kicking (who would drop out? Dagg or Ben Smith? no thank you). I enjoyed this series but when all is said and done The French side the All Blacks just sweaped is probably better than the Wallabies side of the last 3 weeks.

You're probably basing this on the fact that Wales have failed to record wins against the SANZAR nations of late, probably without realising that Halfpenny has been superb in just about every one of those games. If the other 14 players had played like him, Wales would have won the majority of them.

He has been either very good or exceptional in just about every test he's played, and I think he's unfarily judged sometimes because a few of his team-mates have cost Wales some well deserved victories, against Aus in particular.

Whilst I'm not saying he's better than Dagg, he's up there certainly.

Well I watched all of the Lions tour matches, and he did nothing with the ball in any of them bar returning the kick and setting up North at the end of the last test. I've also watched all of his games v the AB's, where he has done a grand total of sweet FA. I watched all the Welsh world cup games, and the odd 6 nations game. So yes I have watched a few of his games.

So you missed his 30 point haul in one of the matches earlier in the tour?

Still not too many games there, probably 10 in total?

 

[Maxwell]

There is no comparison, Dagg easy.

 

[Colombia]

Agreed.

I really do rate Halfpenny for what he does. World rugby is full of good fullbacks at the moment, Halfpenny, Dagg, Ben Smith, Beale, Piutau has played well, Robbie Robinson has been underrated, Anscombe has kicked well (ok, apart from the kciking this is a bit of straw reach ) etc etc.

Apologies if I've misse dout some other FBs.

Says: "world rugby is full of good fullbacks at the moment"
Lists: 5 Kiwi fullbacks and a dodgy Aussie.

:/

 

[dullonien]

Says: "world rugby is full of good fullbacks at the moment"
Lists: 5 Kiwi fullbacks and a dodgy Aussie.

:/

Haha, so true. What about Foden, Brown, Kearney, Hogg?

 

[donmcdazzle]

You're probably basing this on the fact that Wales have failed to record wins against the SANZAR nations of late, probably without realising that Halfpenny has been superb in just about every one of those games. If the other 14 players had played like him, Wales would have won the majority of them.

He has been either very good or exceptional in just about every test he's played, and I think he's unfarily judged sometimes because a few of his team-mates have cost Wales some well deserved victories, against Aus in particular.

Whilst I'm not saying he's better than Dagg, he's up there certainly.



So you missed his 30 point haul in one of the matches earlier in the tour?

Still not too many games there, probably 10 in total?

I didn't miss it. Nobody was arguing that he is a great goal kicker. He did nothing in that game other than retrieve kicks, send them back and slot goals. Nothing wrong with that like I said, and if it works for Wales/Lions, then great. I think as a NZer I'm biased towards fullbacks that offer a bit more with the ball. Yeah I've probably seen about 15-20 of his games all at international level. He might be the second coming of Christian Cullen for his club for all I know, but if he was then you'd think I would have seen a glimpse of attacking prowess in the 15 or so games I've seen him play. But as yet I've seen nothing other than a very good goal kicker, very good positional player and decent punter. Like I say, solid players don't really get much success at fullback over here so that's probably why I don't rate him.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Haha, so true. What about Foden, Brown, Kearney, Hogg?

And some of the kiwi ones aren't even very good. Anscombe and Robinson are not top level fullbacks. Piutau is a machine though, and Dagg and Smith are obviously top drawer.

 

[admartian]

And some of the kiwi ones aren't even very good. Anscombe and Robinson are not top level fullbacks. Piutau is a machine though, and Dagg and Smith are obviously top drawer.

Says: "world rugby is full of good fullbacks at the moment"
Lists: 5 Kiwi fullbacks and a dodgy Aussie.

:/

Haha, so true. What about Foden, Brown, Kearney, Hogg?

*ugh/facepalm*
I said I apologise if I left some out (as in - add them in)??? And like I said, out off all those mentioned, I conceded the bit about Anscombe.

Mountain out of molehill/nitpicky/classic internet naysaying?

Sure...wasn't an overreaction by you guys at all (and I thoguht what Is aid didn't merit that response - as all I was doing was praising fulbacks)? Surely nothing to get g-strings twisted over? JAYSUS MARY!
:lol:

 

[dullonien]

I didn't miss it. Nobody was arguing that he is a great goal kicker. He did nothing in that game other than retrieve kicks, send them back and slot goals. Nothing wrong with that like I said, and if it works for Wales/Lions, then great. I think as a NZer I'm biased towards fullbacks that offer a bit more with the ball. Yeah I've probably seen about 15-20 of his games all at international level. He might be the second coming of Christian Cullen for his club for all I know, but if he was then you'd think I would have seen a glimpse of attacking prowess in the 15 or so games I've seen him play. But as yet I've seen nothing other than a very good goal kicker, very good positional player and decent punter. Like I say, solid players don't really get much success at fullback over here so that's probably why I don't rate him.

And 2 tries .

Anyway, like I said earlier in the thread, Halfpenny does need to work on his attacking game from fullback, it's not quite there yet. But that's not to say that he's offered nothing but kicking, positional play and defence in his international career to date. These three aspects of his game are world-class, and his biggest strengths, but he can run, he can attack, possibly in more of a winger way atm as that's where he played all his senior rugby until the WC (he was a fly half prior at junior grades, apart from at the U20 JWC in 2008 where he was first moved to the wing).

So yeah, Dagg is certainly the better attacking fullback at present, as are many others (Smith, Foden, Hogg), but that's not to say Halfpenny has offered nothing in that department. I think he will develop that aspect of his game (will help if he can play more regional games at fullback, he's not played that many games since his switch due to injury).

Here's a highlights video showing some of the things he's done (although it's missing a healthy amount, such as some of the scything breaks he made v Aus last year, and the Cardiff Blues try v Gloucester a few years back). Still shows that he's a little more than just a kicking type of player (ironically starts with a couple of place kicks).

*ugh/facepalm*
I said I apologise if I left some out (as in - add them in)??? And like I said, out off all those mentioned, I conceded the bit about Anscombe.

Mountain out of molehill/nitpicky/classic internet naysaying?

Sure...wasn't an overreaction by you guys at all (and I thoguht what Is aid didn't merit that response - as all I was doing was praising fulbacks)? Surely nothing to get g-strings twisted over? JAYSUS MARY!
:lol:

Certainly, wasn't trying to nitpick. Suppose it was just telling that you didn't include a NH fullback in the list at all. Understandable though, as you probably mainly watch SH rugby, in the same way I mainly watch NH rugby. Unfortunately haven't the time to watch SH rugby as well (gf already thinks I watch too much ).

 

[donmcdazzle]

Yeah I think we agree in general, you just place more value on the defensive side of a fullback's play than I do I think. The goal kicking thing keeps him involved and brings him a lot of the focus, he wouldn't have got player of the series if he wasn't kicking. Being a great goal kicker is a huge asset by the way so he is massively valuable for that alone, but in a team that already has a good goal kicker he becomes less valuable for the rest of his game. Lee Byrne was a guy who could create some real havoc from the back whatever happened to him? I watched one 6 nations where he was scintillating at times (2009 maybe?).

 

[dullonien]

Yeah I think we agree in general, you just place more value on the defensive side of a fullback's play than I do I think. The goal kicking thing keeps him involved and brings him a lot of the focus, he wouldn't have got player of the series if he wasn't kicking. Being a great goal kicker is a huge asset by the way so he is massively valuable for that alone, but in a team that already has a good goal kicker he becomes less valuable for the rest of his game. Lee Byrne was a guy who could create some real havoc from the back whatever happened to him? I watched one 6 nations where he was scintillating at times (2009 maybe?).

I dunno, I'm a big fan of a running fullback as well, and I want to see Halfpenny counter attacking more, and hitting angles from deep in attack, because he has the ability imo. I do find that there isn't always space for a fullback to counter though, especially in the NH game which is played in poor conditions during the winter for the vast majority (I'd like to see the season shifted to the Summer, but that's another debate), so the defensive abilities of a fullback (positioning, aerial ability, tackling and kicking) are essential skills. Without them things become very messy (Balshaw a good example, no amount of attacking flair can make up for his general defensive liabilities).

Not saying that Dagg doesn't have these core defensive skills, or Smith for that matter. Their attacking abilities are just the icing on a very fine cake.

I suppose comparing fullbacks can be similar to comparing outside halves. Wilkinson was considered one of the best in the world, despite a limited attacking game (compared to the likes of Larkham at the time, or Spencer). Some would argue that attacking flair is an important aspect of a 10's game, others would consider it a bonus. Take Carter for example, he's a fine attacking 10, not the absolute best ever, but better than most, but add that to an incredible array of other skills and you get the best 10 of his generation.

Erm, I've kinda lost track of where I was going with this............ In summary, Halfpenny imo has a decent attacking game, not great. But I believe he can develop this side of his game.

As for Byrne, he struggled for a couple of years after getting injured on the Lions tour. He was quite poor for a while for the Ospreys and Wales, and Halfpenny took his place in the WC and hasn't looked back. He plays for Clermont now and is playing very well, not as good as during his peak in '08-'09, where as you say, he was in phenomenal form, but still very well. Will we see him again for Wales? Probably not, he's probably still our second best fullback, but he's getting on a bit now, so Gatland will focus on developing for the future.

 

[Larksea]

NZ has a rich selection of Fullbacks, also considering that Cory Jane is actually a fullback as well, pecking order:

Dagg - Ben Smith (basically neck and neck) Dagg starts because he has more test experience
Jane - Fullback who has filled a gap at 14 for the AB's and created some pretty epic and memorable moments in the process
Piutau - pretty epic running game, First option is always to run and hardly ever gets himself into trouble, surprisingly good at kicking and under the high Ball for a young lad. Wonder if he will get chances in mid field or wing because of the Depth we have at 15.
Robbie Robinson - came to life last year and played a key role for the chiefs run to the super ***le if it wasn't for a long injury break I think he would have been talked about more for All Black selection. Out and out speed and elusiveness and I think he's the best running 15 in NZ against a set defensive line, seems to break lines and rake up meters harder and faster than he should for his size and actually defends bloody well.

Honorable mention:
Andrew Horrell - more a utility than a fullback, seems to make every run a winner in any position. Just a natural great footy player.
Gareth Anscombe - he's a 10 but was a standout when required at 15 by the chiefs early this season till injured. Did more than just kicking goals from everywhere, he also scored and setup a lot of trys and was more than solid on defense and under the high ball.
Andre Taylor - he is off the radar right now but least we not forget that he had a mind blowing 2012 season where he seemed to convert basically every half break into a try, if he can regain the speed and form he had before injury late last season he will shoot straight to near top this list again.

Absolute log jam of tallent. Dagg has to stay right on his game to keep his jersey, he's probably under more selection pressure from piers than any other All Black regular starter.

What we don't have in NZ right now which is unusual is a list of wingers anywhere near this fullback list. My Winger list would really have just one name on it

Julian Savea

He's epic, one of the worlds best and he is by himself in the NZ game as a top level specialist winger. The rest of the guys who have had the most recent game time on the wings are not wingers.

Ben Smith (fullback)
Cory Jane (fullback)
Richard Kahui (Center)
Renee Ranger (Center/winger but mostly center)

Next actual winger would be Gear but he's still a way off Savea and leaving the NZ game because of that.