Third Test: Australia v British and Irish Lions (06/07/13)

[TRF_Cymro]

SPORT ( any sport ) is all about what have you done lately ?????? So go on at this moment and time tell me England are a better team than Wales ? And don't mention IRB rankings cause we all know the ranking system is rubbish

STOP!

Cricket at least.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ....

What this thread has turned to. Shame on some of the older posters.

Well, you could try posting something constructive yourself as opposed to moaning about it.

 

[Aristodemus]

In the interests of the thread I won't respond but I will just say I replied to somebody claiming Wales were "the best team this century". Anyone wanting to discuss what I said in reply can PM me if they like.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Well, you could try posting something constructive yourself as opposed to moaning about it.

Rich coming from you Owen boy ... rich. Now play nice or don't bother at all thank you.

 

[psychic duck]

According to each IRFU in terms of Win/Loss/Draw.
DK is 27/22/2 and WG is 28/27/1.
Just to add McBryde (09&13) and Howleys wins losses are excluded

Kidney: P53 W27 L23 D3 51%
Gatland: P58 W30 L27 D1 52%

Source: pickandgo.info

Not that it matters much anyway, considering Wales will probably go and lose to SA (who under Meyer are experts of playing averagely yet normally winning) in their next match and change it anyway. Or that much could be read into it as the only reason it's close is because Wales have had a lot more matches against the top 3 with 4 AI fixtures per year. I bet Ireland would love to have had a Wales' level of Grand Slams and a RWC semi that they've had under Gatland.

 

[j'nuh]

No whats sad is that instead of being behind the Lions the 'Likes' of yourselves have turned this thread and the big game on Saturday into the farce.

Really some need to get a grip and get behind the 23 representing the Lions on Saturday instead of tearing the boys apart.

Meh, I think that people being so bothered about it shows how much the Lions means to people. I'd have been more scared if people disagreed with the selections, but were too apathetic about the Lions to post about it.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Meh, I think that people being so bothered about it shows how much the Lions means to people. I'd have been more scared if people disagreed with the selections, but were too apathetic about the Lions to post about it.

Meh ... meh indeed.

If it means so much ... where's the support? All I see is endless slagging. There is criticism to be had. But sorry good boy it's hardly showing support!

 

[Swansea Osprey]

I'd have
Corbs
Youngs
Jones
Evans
Jones
SOB
Tipuric
Faletau
Murray
Sexton
Roberts
Bod/Tuilagi
North
Bowe
1/2penny

Hibbard
Mako
Cole
Parling
Croft
Youngs
Farrell
BOD/Tuilagi

For the record put Phillips in for Murray and that would be my team ! If you look at previous posts I have stated that I would of liked to see the Roberts and Tuilagi partnership just a shame injuries prevented it ! Don't know what all this Tuilagi over Roberts talk is either as I see Tuilagi as a 13 ? I think Gatland has put Tuilagi on the bench cause he can come on and change a game ? It was then between BOD and Davies ( who can both COVER 12 if they HAVE to incase Roberts gets injured ) and I think Gatland give it to Davies rightly or wrongly cause he's used to playing with Roberts ? I really don't see what all the controversy is all about ?

 

[munstermuffin]

Kidney: P53 W27 L23 D3 51%
Gatland: P58 W30 L27 D1 52%

Source: pickandgo.info

Not that it matters much anyway, considering Wales will probably go and lose to SA (who under Meyer are experts of playing averagely yet normally winning) in their next match and change it anyway. Or that much could be read into it as the only reason it's close is because Wales have had a lot more matches against the top 3 with 4 AI fixtures per year. I bet Ireland would love to have had a Wales' level of Grand Slams and a RWC semi that they've had under Gatland.

I think for that Gatland is credited with the games in 2009 when he was on Lions tour. But as you say it is irrelevant and I'd disagree because in another way under Eddie while we underachieved we did win alot of triple crowns and could've won a slam or 2 more except failing in 1 game here or there especially 2007 springs to mind.

@Swansea Osprey BOD could cover 12 and my gripe I suppose is mainly just in the manner and attitude Gatland has went along. As in I'd state I hold no resent toward Davies etc just think Gatlands poor tactics and fact Welsh guys know it more and benefitted in a way as there double standards in reasoning of Phillips and BOD really irks me

 

[Groundhog]

"Well done WG,bold and brave selection that was required to beat this improving Aussie team.Lets not start whinging about who is in and who is out,get behind the Lions.Those left out will be,that's the way of the Lions".-Jeremy Guscott.

"Powerful and bold selections from Gatland".-Lawrence Dallaglio.

"Load of ****e"-everyone else.
Gatland's selection may not be biased, but I really hate his selection criteria. Warrenball has done no good in the last two tests, as Oz outplayed us on both occasions despite having a really strong team on paper. Whatever way you look at it, picking 10 Welsh players to start was a moronic decision from Gatland. What a simple way to completely villify yourself. I really don't feel the nice together Lions vibe at all, instead I feel really ****, that in the culmination of an event which only comes once every four years, none of the guys I watch the Lions to see perform at a unique event, alongside the BEST players from the other home nations are involved, despite deserving some sort of spot. To be honest, winning with a team like this would not mean much for me. Of course I will have less interest in a game in which there are very few Irish lads involved.
I really can't see a reason to trust Gatland's decisions. Call them brave if you wan't, but don't complain if I call them moronic, because I find implying that the Lions team is bigger than the Irish and English players who didn't get a look in, our talismans, and ultimately the reason we watch the Lions tour insulting. I guarentee the Welsh posters would be just as ****** off if the same thing had happened for you. Without doubt Wales has the best national side of the home nations, but the gulf isn't as huge as this lions team implies.
Gatland has not picked on form, the justification of matching up partnerships is weak, as that would mean bringing in O'Driscoll to connect with Sexton. So what has he based the selection on?
I don't see why we should move on, after all we have another four years yet, to recover.
EDIT: I just want to add, that I hope the guys who do play this weekend win. I'll still watch the game, and couldn't bring myself to wish harm on any of our players. I can't condemn a guy for being picked.

 

[icr9214]

SPORT ( any sport ) is all about what have you done lately ?????? So go on at this moment and time tell me England are a better team than Wales ? And don't mention IRB rankings cause we all know the ranking system is rubbish

Seems a pretty bold statement to make. England have gone through somewhat of a revival over the past few years and some young players have finally been given the opportunity to shine. Had a pretty good six nations with some good results and yes were hammered by Wales and just could not respond (forget the ref issue as they would have lost anyway I believe). But you cannot argue with the achievements of this youthful team in such a short period of time.
Obviously in your opinion the world rankings do not mean that much ??? but that aside the results since 2011 speak for themselves.
If we are to take into consideration the recent form of the teams do we not consider the performances against Argentina, Samoa, etc etc their worst losing streak since I don't know when (8 in a row I think it was). All that on the back of winning a grand slam in 2012. What happened there!

 

[icr9214]

"load of ****e"-everyone else.
Gatland's selection may not be biased, but i really hate his selection criteria. Warrenball has done no good in the last two tests, as oz outplayed us on both occasions despite having a really strong team on paper. Whatever way you look at it, picking 10 welsh players to start was a moronic decision from gatland. What a simple way to completely villify yourself. I really don't feel the nice together lions vibe at all, instead i feel really ****, that in the culmination of an event which only comes once every four years, none of the guys i watch the lions to see perform at a unique event, alongside the best players from the other home nations are involved, despite deserving some sort of spot. To be honest, winning with a team like this would not mean much for me. Of course i will have less interest in a game in which there are very few irish lads involved.
I really can't see a reason to trust gatland's decisions. Call them brave if you wan't, but don't complain if i call them moronic, because i find implying that the lions team is bigger than the irish and english players who didn't get a look in, our talismans, and ultimately the reason we watch the lions tour insulting. I guarentee the welsh posters would be just as ****** off if the same thing had happened for you. Without doubt wales has the best national side of the home nations, but the gulf isn't as huge as this lions team implies.
Gatland has not picked on form, the justification of matching up partnerships is weak, as that would mean bringing in o'driscoll to connect with sexton. So what has he based the selection on?
I don't see why we should move on, after all we have another four years yet, to recover.

well said.......

 

[Ospreylian]

Have to say I agree with TRF_Cymro, this thread is turning into a joke. It's just Welsh posters vs English, Irish and everyone else purely for the fact 10 Welsh have coincidently been selected by a coach from New Zealand. Bet there wasn't this much of a backlash in 2005 after 20 Englishmen were picked in Woodward's squad to Wales' 10, even after Wales had just won a Grand Slam.

Just to clarify, I don't think it's Welsh favouritism (I mean, Gatland isn't even Welsh, so...). I think Tipuric has been as much a "victim" of this favouritism as a lot of other players. (I did put that I don't understand why he hasn't been selected for this match.) He's been the form 7 in Europe for some time. He should have had more starts for both Wales and Lions by now, except for what I see as Gatland's favouritism for Warburton. Similar story for Ashley Beck and Wales. I don't think it's Gatland overrating the Welsh, but overrating the players that he's been close to over the years.

I completely agree that Tipuric should have been starting. But still don't see it as favouritism at all. If Gatland was looking to play these so called "Warrenball" tactics surely he would have started O'Brien in the first test, no?

The whole "Warrenball" thing is a load of crap btw, as Wales played in the same ball-crashing style during the Six Nations this year when Gatland was absent. It's just the tactics that suit the current group of players in the Welsh squad at present. When players such as Harry Robinson and Eli Wales get a bit more experience under their belts I'm sure those tactics will gradually change to accomodate them. But for now, the ball-crashing tactics are not pretty but have won Wales two championships in a row, so I'm not complaining that much. Plus I know that certain players such as North offer a lot more than just ball-crashing, that's obvious.

BOD is better than both players being selected. Roberts has had one or two good performances over the years, but more recently is known for being defensively sound and not a great deal more. He's essentially the Welsh Barritt. They both can have their good days and attack a bit, but both are picked for their defence at 12. As for Davies, did you see the video posted earlier in the thread? It's great the he performed well against the small teams, but he's struggled vs. Australia way more than BOD has. As shown in that vid, BOD ran a great line that Davies didn't read well at all. As I've said, BOD is also an organiser of the backline. As the best center, both by form and outside of form, as well as being an important leader, I just cannot fathom him being dropped.

It wasn't too long ago you were telling me Davies had been the form centre of the tour!! I'm absolutely adamant you said BOD should be dropped for Tuilagi as well Funny how things change when you're on a forum full of angry Irish and Englishmen eh?

Roberts is definitely not the Welsh Barritt, because he knows how to attack the gain line. Barritt does not. All Barritt offers is defence, and it ends there. Roberts offers defence AND ball crashing.

Also, I'm sorry but that example in the video of Davies running the bad attacking line is one example from one test where everybody played pretty averagely (apart from certain individuals like Warbs). I'm sure we could point out examples of things BOD has done wrong, for example the numerous penalties he gave away for flopping over the ball at ruck time. I know these were harsh, but other players wised up to the ref's decisions a lot quicker than BOD it seemed. Bearing in mind the Lions only lost the game by one point, it's these penalties that could cost the Lions dear in the last test.
I agree that the main thing you lose from BOD is his leadership qualities, but AWJ is VERY vocal and I'm hoping he'll have a great game as captain. A lot of the players talk about how much of a leader he is on the field and how articulate he is in expressing his views to the other players around him.

Also, @HenryChinaski, I wasn't having a go at you, Peat or Feicarsinn, I was just getting ****** off with those posters that were saying they would be supporting Australia purely for the fact BOD has been dropped. I think that is absurd. Is BOD going to stay in his bedroom on saturday crying his eyes out under his pillow, or is he going to be in the stadium cheering the starting 23 on? Isn't it obvious which? He'll get over the decision like every other human player does when they are dropped.

Just for a comparable example, in 2009 when Shane Williams wasn't selected for the 1st or 2nd tests in SA, I can't remmber anywhere near as big a fuss being kicked up as on this thread. And this was at a time where many thought it obvious that Shane should be starting. He came in for the 3rd test and proved to everyone why he should have been included anyhow, by which point it was too late.

Anyway, I'm going to be cheering on the British & Irish Lions come saturday because I'm not a fairweather fan The same as I did in 2005 (when nowhere near as many Welsh were involved) and in 2009.

In conclusion, f*** this thread for a big bag of w***

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah give over, the amount of stick the Kiwis, South Africans, English and Irish get around here, it's about time the welsh got a bit of stick

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2

 

[dullonien]

All that on the back of winning a grand slam in 2012. What happened there!

A lot of things, including the Lions tour. Losing our head coach was a big thing, because to begin with Howley really wasn't ready for the position. It didn't help matters that Gatland came back for the odd game here and there. Howley grew into the position though, and I'm sure we'll look back on it as both being beneficial, in terms of the development of Howley as a potential head coach, and a learning experience.

 

[Ospreylian]

Ah give over, the amount of stick the Kiwis, South Africans, English and Irish get around here, it's about time the welsh got a bit of stick

Haha, oi us Welsh are used to stick let me tell you! We're also used to our team doing **** for the past 30 odd years before 2005. So let us have a bit of the glory for a decade or so will you?

 

[Johnny Boy]

Last time I seen a less Welsh side was a Welsh side in grannygate.:lol:

 

[Saintjay]

SPORT ( any sport ) is all about what have you done lately ?????? So go on at this moment and time tell me England are a better team than Wales ? And don't mention IRB rankings cause we all know the ranking system is

Or the win loss ration of both teams for the last year.

Oh and for what it is worth as much as I disagree on somethings by Gats. I will scream like made for the boys and a lions win.

 

[Peat]

A lot of things, including the Lions tour. Losing our head coach was a big thing, because to begin with Howley really wasn't ready for the position. It didn't help matters that Gatland came back for the odd game here and there. Howley grew into the position though, and I'm sure we'll look back on it as both being beneficial, in terms of the development of Howley as a potential head coach, and a learning experience.

Alternately

- Play three games down under against quality opposition, so far a losing proposition for Gatball (that had better have changed by Saturday...)
- Adam Jones gets injured for four games
- Ireland had their one good game a year

...

About the sum of it if you ask me. I may - and will continue to - slag off Jones' contribution around the field, but I'm counting down the days until it disappears from a Welsh jersey, not least as there's no replacement.

That said, going back to the original point, Wales' inconsistency does need to be born in mind when discussing their status as a team - as does the history of failure against the SH. England are ahead of them in the IRB rankings because we've been more consistent, and have some SH wins/draws in the bank as well. Make England a better team? I don't want to touch that one tbh, not at the moment.

Idle point that only just occured to me - this Lions team clearly is expecting a lot from the scrum. Looking at that bench though, whether we can continue it for 80 is pretty open to question.

 

[j'nuh]

I completely agree that Tipuric should have been starting. But still don't see it as favouritism at all. If Gatland was looking to play these so called "Warrenball" tactics surely he would have started O'Brien in the first test, no?

The whole "Warrenball" thing is a load of crap btw, as Wales played in the same ball-crashing style during the Six Nations this year when Gatland was absent. It's just the tactics that suit the current group of players in the Welsh squad at present. When players such as Harry Robinson and Eli Wales get a bit more experience under their belts I'm sure those tactics will gradually change to accomodate them. But for now, the ball-crashing tactics are not pretty but have won Wales two championships in a row, so I'm not complaining that much. Plus I know that certain players such as North offer a lot more than just ball-crashing, that's obvious.

I'm not sure how this is related to my post because I haven't mentioned anything about Warrenball. I don't even know what it is tbh.

I do disagree with the tactics more generally though. Too much kicking to dangerous backs, not enough ball carriers in the forwards (partly remedied now), we're now lacking breakdown specialists, not creating momentum before attacking, North and Bowe, two of the stars of the tour, reduced to up-and-under chasers in the second test (not given enough space to attack). Without scrum penalties going our way, we'd have been well-beaten in the second test, and we were a slip from Beale away from losing to a team playing a flanker in the centers in the first. Hell, had Lealiifano not gotten injured within the first few mins of the first test, Aus would have had a kicker to have put the first test away. I've been underwhelmed by the Lions performances in the two tests.

It wasn't too long ago you were telling me Davies had been the form centre of the tour!! I'm absolutely adamant you said BOD should be dropped for Tuilagi as well Funny how things change when you're on a forum full of angry Irish and Englishmen eh?

I may have done after the second test, but I told you I was tired and hadn't been able to keep up too much. Some of the things I blamed BOD for, in fact turned out to be Davies' problem (watch the video posted earlier).

Roberts is definitely not the Welsh Barritt, because he knows how to attack the gain line. Barritt does not. All Barritt offers is defence, and it ends there. Roberts offers defence AND ball crashing.

He hasn't done this consistently for ages. He has one-off good games which keep him in the team for a while to come. He had a decent 6N in 2012, but since then, in the 9 games he's played for Wales, he's made fewer meters than his OC on 8/9 occasions, hasn't gotten above 10 meters with ball-in-hand on 6 occasions, making an average of just over 1.5m per carry. He's made just one clean break in that time. He's beat five defenders, with three of them coming in his particularly good match against England. He's lived off reputation for a very long time, but I'll give that he's a pretty decent defender.

Tuilagi for example destroys Roberts in the carrying department. Over the same period, Tuilagi has made more than 10 meters in 9/9 games, and 20 or more meters in 8/9, but more generally makes 40+ meters. 8 clean breaks, 19 defenders beaten. He's done this from both 12 and 13. A much better ball crasher and should be in the team.

Also, I'm sorry but that example in the video of Davies running the bad attacking line is one example from one test where everybody played pretty averagely (apart from certain individuals like Warbs). I'm sure we could point out examples of things BOD has done wrong, for example the numerous penalties he gave away for flopping over the ball at ruck time. I know these were harsh, but other players wised up to the ref's decisions a lot quicker than BOD it seemed. Bearing in mind the Lions only lost the game by one point, it's these penalties that could cost the Lions dear in the last test.

Could have? It was Davies defending that did cost the Lions the last game (the try he let in)! In any case, with Poite set to ref the last game, breakdown reffing is set to be a lot more familiar to NH players. What may have been a weakness of BOD's in the first two games, could have been a strength in the last game.

I agree that the main thing you lose from BOD is his leadership qualities, but AWJ is VERY vocal and I'm hoping he'll have a great game as captain. A lot of the players talk about how much of a leader he is on the field and how articulate he is in expressing his views to the other players around him.

I agree with this. I wanted AWJ to be captain from the start, so I'm looking forward to that. But AWJ will be stuck in with the tight. Who will marshal the defensive positioning of the backs?

In conclusion, f*** this thread for a big bag of w***

We need some goats to lighten the mood.