Third Test: Australia v British and Irish Lions (06/07/13)

[munstermuffin]

Don't think I buy into this whole Gatland Welsh favoritism thing. If that was the case I think he would have picked Cuthbert over Bowe (or at least had him on the bench) and Tipuric over O'Brien.

A few of the positions he has picked Welsh guys in have been very closely contested. There wasn't much between Hibbard and Youngs for example, and I'm sure Gatland has gone for the former because of how he seemed to add something to the strength of the scrum last weekend. Same goes for Philips, Gatland had to pick between three very underperforming scrum-halves and I think he made the right call, not because Philips is Welsh but because he will best cope with the physicality around the fringes from the likes of Hooper.

What I'm saying is, it's easy to pass judgement and make wild claims about "subconscious favouritism" (which I think is slightly ridiculous and makes people sound like they think they're experts in psychology), but none of us have any idea as to the true motives of this selection, how individual players have been doing in training, whether or not other coaches were involved or consulted in the selection process, or whether this selection suits a certain game plan not yet divulged that is specific to the circumstances of the weekend.

So let's not get on our high horses and say that we each individually would do a better job at being Lions head coach, because that's a load of bull****. It must be one of the toughest jobs in world rugby, and any decision you make could cause hissy fits like the one we've witnessed in this thread. And tbh I think it's astounding that people are saying they're going to give up on the Lions and support Australia. F*** that. If you're that fickle then good riddance to you.

BOD was a great player, but only good at present (nothing amazing or outstanding). Why is it that when he falls from his ridiculously high pedestal everyone treats it like a death in the family? If Halfpenny were dropped (who has been my man of the tour, incidently) for the last test I would be disappointed, but I wouldn't go on here making up crackpot conspiracies about the coaches motives, or lose faith in the Lions.

Certain people need to grow up and support the Lions on saturday. Just enjoy it for a game. Cut the coaches some slack, you have no idea whatsoever what their reasons are for anything.

But I'll ask so on certain issues.

a) When they trained in Ireland why bring Welsh U.20 players to make up numbers? Why not Irish U.20s or even Munster/Leinster/Ulster lads not on duty. And when in Wales and short players why use Wales U.20 full squad why not just call in extra players from standby list? There were lots that werent with National teams until following week or 2. Players off top of my head in Munster - Zebo, O'Mahony, Mike Sherry, Kilcoyne and James Downey. (All internationals) Add in likes of Robshaw, Ashton etc all these lads better than Wales U.20's so why was Welsh teams used heavily?

b) Bowe and Cuthbert were never in same class as defensively Cuthbert (isn't versatile for bench) is poor so that was never close. Same with Tipuric wasn't on form really so SOB was always ahead and Tipuric would only have been in ahead of Lydiate.

c) The issue of Phillips over the first 2 tests Phillips has been by a large distance the worst of the 3 9's so why select him? Murray had excellent game when on last week and Youngs wasn't as bad in his appearances so what is the reasoning behind Phillips suddenly been parachuted back in as a starter.

d) Youngs has outshone Hibbard in darts and argubally around field so why sacrifice our lineout for scrum.

e) Regards BOD I'd have no problem in BOD been dropped if it was based fairly on form and on form Tuilagi is the man deserving a 13 shirt ahead of BOD but nobody else.

f) Warburton was handed the captaincy when he wasn't even guaranteed his Welsh jersey.

g) Gatland picked all Welsh coaches with Farrell who is a yes man and Rowntree who also just is a puppet for Gatland. I've respect for Rob Howley but the Lions is about entertaining rugby and Joe Schmidt openly revealed he'd love the Backs/Attack role for Lions and Gatland didn't even consider him. Now as a Munster man it's not easy to say but how can you overlook a man who is 1 of the best in World Rugby - I'll tell you why because Gatland was worried he might get credit and the All Blacks might be shown his talent and he's a threat.

h) You mention subconsiousness but I'll ask question so - IF it's all about Combinations and that reason Davies was retained then why isn't Murray at 9 as he's showed better than Phillips but more so on same reasoning as Davies him and Sexton are national partners?
Same could be argued for Heaslip beside SOB? I don't think it subconsiousness when it basically said.

i) And finally my point why so many changes like we haven't been hammered but I would question is it a coincidence that every Welsh player except Evans will see test duty and if you add in had Gethin Jenkins been fit and Priestland they would've too.

Maybe all coincidence but

 

[Swansea Osprey]

Lots of people saying Gatland has made a tough call regarding BOD but I think he has bottled it. He had a choice between dropping an aging superstar in perhaps the last year of his game who Gatland will never have to coach again or dropping a young lad who he will have to work with until the next world cup at the very least. Easy to drop the superstar, if the Lions win he is a genius and he will be a hero among the welsh players he showed faith in and if the Lions lose he just goes back to Wales and gets on with his job. Either way upsetting BOD and a load of Irishmen is hardly going to bother him, upsetting a player who is likely to be a regular in his Welsh team up to the world cup could cause him problems, the same goes for the other 50/50 calls he had to make at hooker, blindside, No8, scrum half and inside centre.

If that was the case Gatland would of done that from the start ??????? He wouldn't of made BOD captain against the Force and Faletau would of played first two tests !!!!!!!

 

[Swansea Osprey]

Gatland has a very personal attachment to the Welsh team and I think that it clouds his judgements. I don't think it's malicious or anything, just that there's a level of subconscious favouritism going on. Same can be said of Farrell, Rowntree and Howley.

I think the coaches are a bit two experienced for that don't you ?

 

[icr9214]

Unfortunately it does matter in this case as the Welsh national team coach has been given the honour of coaching a very good Lions squad who on paper should win the series.
Anyone who has watched the games and with any kind rugby brain knows who the players are that are performing well etc.
What also does not help his cause is that Gatland himself was one of the Coaches who put down Graham Henry for doing almost exactly the same in 2001 tour.
He has selected too many players on the basis that they are tried and tested together. If that's the case then play them all...
Please don't take this the wrong way as I have nothing but admiration for the man and what he and Edwards etc have done for the Welsh game but there are players starting on this crucial game who have not deserved that opportunity. Hibbard is not the only example.
Davies in the second test when we tackled more than twice that of the Wallabies (a large portion in the midfield) stats 7 tackles missed 3 !!!
BOD 14 tackles missed none.....
Davies and Roberts tried and tested yes, so too Roberts and BOD 2009 lions arguably one of the Northern hem centre partnerships ever.. In fact Robert also is lucky to start. Tuilagi should have been given the Nod over him as he has performed better on tour and has been match fit tested since his knock.

 

[munstermuffin]

Unfortunately it does matter in this case as the Welsh national team coach has been given the honour of coaching a very good Lions squad who on paper should win the series.
Anyone who has watched the games and with any kind rugby brain knows who the players are that are performing well etc.
What also does not help his cause is that Gatland himself was one of the Coaches who put down Graham Henry for doing almost exactly the same in 2001 tour.
He has selected too many players on the basis that they are tried and tested together. If that's the case then play them all...
Please don't take this the wrong way as I have nothing but admiration for the man and what he and Edwards etc have done for the Welsh game but there are players starting on this crucial game who have not deserved that opportunity. Hibbard is not the only example.
Davies in the second test when we tackled more than twice that of the Wallabies (a large portion in the midfield) stats 7 tackles missed 3 !!!
BOD 14 tackles missed none.....
Davies and Roberts tried and tested yes, so too Roberts and BOD 2009 lions arguably one of the Northern hem centre partnerships ever.. In fact Robert also is lucky to start. Tuilagi should have been given the Nod over him as he has performed better on tour and has been match fit tested since his knock.

I agre 100% on Tuilagi earning his spot but lads so what if combinations are tested or not that is part of what the Lions is about putting combos together and having fun with the cream of the crop no combo should be selected solely on if they are tested at national level. I myself even said that about DOC and POC in 2009. It's about putting best together and seeing. As in if it was always about putting the best "tried and tested" then you'd never have lads like Ryans Jones that come out and bolt

 

[bertiec]

With this team its a case of kick and scrat. No real go forward, fed up of the whole Welsh bias bit. Put Manu in the Youngs bros and Croft, lets get some go forward.

 

[Swansea Osprey]

Same with Tipuric wasn't on form really so SOB was always ahead and Tipuric would only have been in ahead of Lydiate.

REALLY ??? IMO Tipuric should be starting mate !

 

[SelimNiai]

With this team its a case of kick and scrat. No real go forward, fed up of the whole Welsh bias bit. Put Manu in the Youngs bros and Croft, lets get some go forward.

I take it you get the irony of mentioning the "Welsh bias" and then only suggesting English replacements?

In a general not I cant stand how this thread has turned out. With a couple of dodge/brave selections, people have reverted to their tribal ways. I trust Gatland, he has a highly decorated coaching career and I reject the idea he's being facetious and vindictive in picking the players he has, you dont get as far in rugby as he has by being that way.

The funny bit is, for saying that, most will ignore it seeing as I'm Welsh so I'm bound to support him. That, simply, is idiotic.

 

[munstermuffin]

REALLY ??? IMO Tipuric should be starting mate !

That's the beauty of Lions we will disagree although if Tipuric is in as I say it'd be at expense of Lydiate in my eyes

 

[mstar]

But I'll ask so on certain issues.

g) Gatland picked all Welsh coaches withFarrell who is a yes man and Rowntree who also just is a puppet for Gatland.I've respect for Rob Howley but the Lions is about entertaining rugby and Joe Schmidt openly revealed he'd love the Backs/Attack role for Lions and Gatland didn't even consider him. Now as a Munster man it's not easy to say but how can you overlook a man who is 1 of the best in World Rugby - I'll tell you why because Gatland was worried he might get credit and the All Blacks might be shown his talent and he's a threat.

Agree, Joe schmidt, should of been either the head coach or part of the coaching team. I think it more down to Gatland getting shown up how to coach a more attacking side so he wanted yes men like Farrell and Wiggy. Criminal we never had Schmidt, his credentials speak volumes how his sides play.

Gatlands deficiency is he doesn't know how to coach a side to use offensive players like Croft/tipuric combo. Geech got the Lions side working greatly with croft acting as a extra winger/link man to the back-line AND as extra cover for opposition wingers as he has the pace to keep up. IF your down as Australia have scroed a try, and the crash-bang-whallop way isn't working what you going to do? the bench is the same philosophy. Thats why you need a side who can score trys!! thats my worry not the philosphy its just plan A.

 

[Swansea Osprey]

That's the beauty of Lions we will disagree although if Tipuric is in as I say it'd be at expense of Lydiate in my eyes

I said in another thread I would have put O'brien at 6 with Tipuric at 7 ! I think Gats is going to bring Tipuric on with 30 to go when legs are tired !

 

[munstermuffin]

I said in another thread I would have put O'brien at 6 with Tipuric at 7 ! I think Gats is going to bring Tipuric on with 30 to go when legs are tired !

Possibly but score will matter if Lions are leading Lydiate will be kept on for defense duties

 

[Swansea Osprey]

Agree, Joe schmidt, should of been either the head coach or part of the coaching team. I think it more down to Gatland getting shown up how to coach a more attacking side so he wanted yes men like Farrell and Wiggy. Criminal we never had Schmidt, his credentials speak volumes how his sides play.

Gatlands deficiency is he doesn't know how to coach a side to use offensive players like Croft/tipuric combo. Geech got the Lions side working greatly with croft acting as a extra winger/link man to the back-line AND as extra cover for opposition wingers as he has the pace to keep up. IF your down as Australia have scroed a try, and the crash-bang-whallop way isn't working what you going to do? the bench is the same philosophy. Thats why you need a side who can score trys!! thats my worry not the philosphy its just plan A.

Is the coaching staff Gatlands call ? Not being funny I genuinely don't know ! Cause I always found it weird that Edwards didn't get the defence job ?

 

[Ospreylian]

I take it you get the irony of mentioning the "Welsh bias" and then only suggesting English replacements?

In a general not I cant stand how this thread has turned out. With a couple of dodge/brave selections, people have reverted to their tribal ways. I trust Gatland, he has a highly decorated coaching career and I reject the idea he's being facetious and vindictive in picking the players he has, you dont get as far in rugby as he has by being that way.

The funny bit is, for saying that, most will ignore it seeing as I'm Welsh so I'm bound to support him. That, simply, is idiotic.

Couldn't have put it any better!

 

[icr9214]

One of the only people talking pure sense, but your not going to convince some people. It seems pretty obvious to me also.
Just one correction that being Davies (I assume you mean J Davies) who you have said is national partners with Murray and Sexton. Davies is Welsh.

 

[icr9214]

I agre 100% on Tuilagi earning his spot but lads so what if combinations are tested or not that is part of what the Lions is about putting combos together and having fun with the cream of the crop no combo should be selected solely on if they are tested at national level. I myself even said that about DOC and POC in 2009. It's about putting best together and seeing. As in if it was always about putting the best "tried and tested" then you'd never have lads like Ryans Jones that come out and bolt

This person has hit the nail on the head and everyone else needs to get on board. I agree that is exactly what you want to see, the best we have doing what they are good at. Much like the Barbarians concept.

 

[Ospreylian]

If Gatland really was being biased or showing favouritism, why wouldn't he have picked this 23 for the very first test? Why now? He must have his reasons, he is a tried and tested international coach.

I just find it bemusing how people can start accusing a coach of showing favouritism at this late stage. Only a couple of changes have been made to the starting XV (one of them forced by injury), and nobody was really complaining about the 23 before the first test. To have yourself believe you know what Gatland's motives are is naive and absurd.

If Gatland was showing favouritism, surely he would have taken Shaun Edwards as a defensive coach from the Welsh set-up? Edwards has coached Wales into a fantastic defensive team.

But, as SelimNiai said, us Welsh posters will get labelled with the same "biased" tag for trying to defend the New Zealand born head coach of the Lions, purely for the fact he has dropped the untouchable Brian O'Driscoll. He was a fantastic player and has played his part this tour, but he is just a human being too. Players shouldn't have a god-given right to a test place just because of their name, which is what a lot of people seem to think on here.

 

[Swansea Osprey]

This person has hit the nail on the head and everyone else needs to get on board. I agree that is exactly what you want to see, the best we have doing what they are good at. Much like the Barbarians concept.

Why are people saying Tuilagi should of got picked ahead of Roberts ? Isn't Tuilagi an Outside Centre ? I would of liked to have seen a Roberts and Tuilagi partnership but injuries too both prevented us from seeing it !

I really don't see what the fuss is about :

1. Hibbard starts - BOTH hookers are going to play on Sat ( Gats has just swopped the order around )

2. Faletau Starts - should of started in first two tests

3. Phillips starts - best 9 on tour and can act like another back rower if need be

4. Center partnership - Playing two outside centres didn't work and BOD got dropped ! J Davies has had a very good tour and got the nod over Tuilagi ( do we KNOW if he's 100% fit ? ) and Tuilagi is one hell of an impact player ! And Roberts is by far the best option at 12 !

 

[psychic duck]

Okay, but this is the same Welsh team that has lost its last 8 encounters against Australia, was out of the top 8 in the world last year and was tanked in Dublin in the six nations. They're the best of the home nations sides, but good enough to have two thirds of a Lions starting fifteen? No chance. Not even the great English side of 2003 were that good and they were from another planet by Northern Hemisphere standards (actually, I probably wouldn't have begrudged it of them). In my mind the our best two centres are on the bench or out of the squad, the best hooker of the tour has been dropped, Mike Philips has been brought in despite being genuinely awful two weeks ago and Dan Lydiate is playing at 6 despite really not being what the Lions need there.

Wales are a good side, but they're far from as good as that test side would make out. And their record against Australia is quite frankly an embarrassment. These players and these tactics have been proven not to work against the Wallabies time and time again over the past 18 months, yet the coach persists with them despite so many other options at his disposal. With that in mind, followers of the other home nations have every right to be unhappy with this team selection.

Not arguing about the rest of the post (apart from Wales were hardly "tanked" this year over the 80 minutes by Ireland), as I would not have selected the centres and scrum half.

But in 2001 had more players in the matchday 22 than the 11 Wales have in the matchday 23 in this game. The Welsh coach picked 12 in the matchday 22 (and would have been more had starters Dallaglio, Greenwood not got injured). In 2005, England had 13 players in the 22 in the same year that they finished 4th in the 6 Nations (at least in 2001 and 2013 it is from back to back 6N champions). In 1993, the Lions had 11 English in the starting lineup and 15 in the matchday 21. So this is certainly not an unprecedented thing.

Can I just post a funny stat too for all Gatland worshippers. Declan Kidneys record with Ireland was better that Gatlands has been with Wales in terms of wins.

That's false munstermuffin. Kidney won 27 matches. Gatland has won 34 (or 30 if you discount the period where Rob Howley was interim head coach). And either way has a better success rate as well. Kidney has won more matches vs the top 3 though.

Ok lets start with Slams - 2008 was a good Slam but were lucky in Irish game as the ref was poor and carded 3 Irish players harshly, Shane Horgan got a try that some debated hit whitewash but TMO said it was short (kinda forget the try myself)

2012 - Ireland again Ferris gifted it in a harsh again pen when it was very low morale Irish team.

And if you tell me 2013 (Worst 6N in years) wasn't a fluke then look fair enough.

Munstermuffin, in 2008, 0 Irish players were binned, and 2 Welsh players were binned. Shane Horgan was certainly held up. Shane Williams separated what was otherwise a defense dominated match with a piece of magic. Not sure your thinking of the right match. In 2012, Wales got some luck at the end but were the better team in the match. In 2013, none of the wins were a match where Wales were got lucky and weren't the better team.

We're gonna get tanked.

Australia by 10+. I would have said 20+ but for the possible 3 point machine of the scrum+halfpenny.

Wales have only lost by more than 8 once under Gatland back in 2009, they have never got "tanked". In 2012, in November, there was a team with players like Liam Williams, Priestland, Scott Andrews and Lou Reed starting (players who went and got outplayed by Japan), and they still only lost in the last minute. So how is a team with good Wales players with good Irish and English going to get tanked? Only that is happening is if the squad has bad attitude in the mind.

 

[Aristodemus]

Don't think I buy into this whole Gatland Welsh favoritism thing. If that was the case I think he would have picked Cuthbert over Bowe (or at least had him on the bench) and Tipuric over O'Brien.

A few of the positions he has picked Welsh guys in have been very closely contested. There wasn't much between Hibbard and Youngs for example, and I'm sure Gatland has gone for the former because of how he seemed to add something to the strength of the scrum last weekend. Same goes for Philips, Gatland had to pick between three very underperforming scrum-halves and I think he made the right call, not because Philips is Welsh but because he will best cope with the physicality around the fringes from the likes of Hooper.

What I'm saying is, it's easy to pass judgement and make wild claims about "subconscious favouritism" (which I think is slightly ridiculous and makes people sound like they think they're experts in psychology), but none of us have any idea as to the true motives of this selection, how individual players have been doing in training, whether or not other coaches were involved or consulted in the selection process, or whether this selection suits a certain game plan not yet divulged that is specific to the circumstances of the weekend.

So let's not get on our high horses and say that we each individually would do a better job at being Lions head coach, because that's a load of bull****. It must be one of the toughest jobs in world rugby, and any decision you make could cause hissy fits like the one we've witnessed in this thread. And tbh I think it's astounding that people are saying they're going to give up on the Lions and support Australia. F*** that. If you're that fickle then good riddance to you.

BOD was a great player, but only good at present (nothing amazing or outstanding). Why is it that when he falls from his ridiculously high pedestal everyone treats it like a death in the family? If Halfpenny were dropped (who has been my man of the tour, incidently) for the last test I would be disappointed, but I wouldn't go on here making up crackpot conspiracies about the coaches motives, or lose faith in the Lions.

Certain people need to grow up and support the Lions on saturday. Just enjoy it for a game. Cut the coaches some slack, you have no idea whatsoever what their reasons are for anything.

It has been pretty clear to me since the squad was announced and Warburton named captain. Sure I see things from an England perspective as you see things from a Welsh. Personally, based on this last year prior to the Lions squad neither Cuthbert nor Tipuric would have been in my squad. I will just add that Launchbury and Morgan have both been absolutely outstanding for England this previous year and I thought it was a poor decision to leave them both out, amongst others.

As for your points:-
When Hibbard came on in the first test the scrum went to ****. Tom Youngs should be the number one hooker, that is pretty clear to most. If anyone I think it was Jones whos test spot should have been up for grabs as he had a poor game around the park last weekend. I will point out I don't mind Jones keeping his spot though, they want to hurt the Aussie scrum.
By coping with the physicality do you mean running into Mowen's loving arms again and again? Murray or Youngs had to start with the other benched. Hooper isn't playing btw.
In the back row I don't think Lydiate should be there, but I have no problem with Faletau getting in. Obviously as I said before Morgan would be the guy I wanted at 8 but that is not to be.
Centre is my main issue. It isn't fine that he slaps in the face one of the greatest Lions I ever had the pleasure of watching. On form he is much better than Davies too, I agree he hasn't been at his best but Davies has been much worse. It is a good thing for him that we won that first test or his final mistake might have put him in O'Garaland. As for who comes in, how in the hell has Roberts found himself in front of Tuilagi? He can crashball at least as good as Roberts (which is all he has) and he can do so much more. BOD (47 in 125) and Manu (10 in 21) also score tries consistently and create for others. Davies (9 in 36) and Roberts (5 in 53) do not. BOD may well not be as good as he was, but he is still better than both the guys who are starting.
As for Halfpenny, he has not been player of the tour. His goalkicking has been a thing of beauty but if for example AWJ was kicking at goal immaculately I still wouldn't factor it in to who I picked at lock. It is just a bonus. Halfpenny has been solid, nothing more, as fullback. George North is the guy I pick for that accolade.

Let us live in hypothetical land for a while. Lancaster has been coach, he named a squad which has almost 50% English players with Robshaw captain. Every single one of them gets test time and after Robshaw is injured he chooses another English player as captain. The final, most important test is picked with 10 English players. Would you be happy? Would you be telling all your Welsh friends to cut Lancaster some slack?