Third Test: Australia v British and Irish Lions (06/07/13)

[munstermuffin]

Back on subject though I will not really shout for Aus but not bothered by winner really but what happens if its a draw do Lions win due to bigger winning margin

 

[Rich Taff]

Welcome to the internet Rob, I'd be more than happy to guide you through the maze of bickering, pedantry, online hard men and sycophants.

There is no way through that maze!

 

[KAPman]

Im very unhappy that O'Driscoll has been dropped, considering his stature, and that he is one of the few leaders the lions have left in their team. He's not been at his best in the 2 tests, but on the pitch he has this aura around him and the respect of the other players, which is needed in any team. His defence in the second test was as solid as anyone. Also if they were going to bring Roberts back, the perfect combonation to break down the aussie defence would have been O'Driscoll/Roberts, a very well balanced centre pairing, and proven to be a threat.
Gatland has taken a blunt view in that this game plan of bashing up the middle and trying to break australia down with hit-up rugby, with a focus on winning penalties and/or kicking for territory is the way to beat Australia. It's the same game-plan wales have tried against australia for the last 8 tests against them, and it didnt work, and it was the way they wanted to play in the 2nd test and didnt work.
As the All Blacks, as South Africa, as France, and England in the past have proved, you need a balance of power, flair, guild and subtly to beat Australia, and the Lions have the players available to play that balanced style of rugby, but gatland has chosen not to play that way, and will backfire if the lions dont win on saturday.

My XV for saturday would have been:
15: Leigh Halfpenny
14: Alex Cuthbert
13: Brian O'Driscoll (c)
12: Jamie Roberts
11: George North
10: Jonny Sexton
9: Ben Youngs
1: Alex Corbisiaro
2: Tom Youngs
3: Adam Jones
4: Richie Gray
5: Alun Wyn Jones
6: Tom Croft
7: Justin Tipuric
8: Sean O'Brien

Bench: 16: Richie Hibbard. 17: Ryan Grant. 18: Dan Cole. 19: Geoff Parling. 20: Toby Faleteu. 21: Mike Phillips. 22: Stuart Hogg. 23: Jon Davies

 

[Thingimubob]

Ok lets start with Slams - 2008 was a good Slam but were lucky in Irish game as the ref was poor and carded 3 Irish players harshly, Shane Horgan got a try that some debated hit whitewash but TMO said it was short (kinda forget the try myself)

2012 - Ireland again Ferris gifted it in a harsh again pen when it was very low morale Irish team.

And if you tell me 2013 (Worst 6N in years) wasn't a fluke then look fair enough.

World Cup Wales got lucky by Ire beating Aus and then yes they beat us in QF but we were poor but again bottled it against France in SF (but fluked avoiding SH team) and yes SW was a red card offese so no excuse.

Wales won 6 Nations but these are same guys that lost to Samoa at home etc and well what have regions ever done ......?

But I suppose Leinster Munster and Ulster achievements are 2 maybe 3 steps down hell even Munster have more wins than Wales over Aus in past few years

You're chaffing out of your arse there mate, no Irish player got carded in the '08 match, 2 Welsh players did. Although I do remember Bernard Jackman getting away with just a penalty for a blatant cheap shot into a pinned Ryan Jones's back, nowhere near the ball... Definitely wasn't a try, was a great cover tackle from Phillips I believe. That one was definitely a well won Welsh win, not just luck... (Seriously what is it with people and going 'oh that was just luck' every time we win a bloody 6 Nations?!)

Of course North and Davies tearing your defence apart had nothing to do with the 2012 win too

 

[Rich Taff]

Im very unhappy that O'Driscoll has been dropped, considering his stature, and that he is one of the few leaders the lions have left in their team. He's not been at his best in the 2 tests, but on the pitch he has this aura around him and the respect of the other players, which is needed in any team. His defence in the second test was as solid as anyone. Also if they were going to bring Roberts back, the perfect combonation to break down the aussie defence would have been O'Driscoll/Roberts, a very well balanced centre pairing, and proven to be a threat.
Gatland has taken a blunt view in that this game plan of bashing up the middle and trying to break australia down with hit-up rugby, and domianting the forward pack is the way to beat Australia. It's the same game-plan wales have tried against australia for the last 8 tests against them, and it didnt work, and it was the way they wanted to play in the 2nd test and didnt work.
As the All Blacks, as South Africa, as France, and England in the past have proved, you need a balance of power, flair, guild and subtly to beat Australia, and the Lions have the players available to play that balanced style of rugby, but gatland has chosen not to play that way, and will backfire if the lions dont win on saturday.

My XV for saturday would have been:
15: Leigh Halfpenny
14: Alex Cuthbert
13: Brian O'Driscoll (c)
12: Jamie Roberts
11: George North
10: Jonny Sexton
9: Ben Youngs
1: Alex Corbisiaro
2: Tom Youngs
3: Adam Jones
4: Richie Gray
5: Alun Wyn Jones
6: Tom Croft
7: Justin Tipuric
8: Sean O'Brien

Bench: 16: Richie Hibbard. 17: Ryan Grant. 18: Dan Cole. 19: Geoff Parling. 20: Toby Faleteu. 21: Mike Phillips. 22: Stuart Hogg. 23: Jon Davies

I like the team, but (if restricted to one change from it), would put Toby in ahead of SOB.

 

[SuperEagle]

I'm scratching my head about this one.

The Lions are playing arguably their weakest opposition for about 30 years, so how come we are starting this match as underdogs?

Does anyone truly believe that Jonathon Davies is the best 13 of the home unions? Especially after the way he played last week? :huh:

Not having a 3rd jumper is going to kill us in the lineout. Hibbard is being thrown to the wolves here. All the lineouts will go to 2, the ball with come out slowly, Phillips will dawdle and Sexton will have to deal with the entire Aussie back row arriving at the same time as the ball. This is a recipe for disaster.

That said, the Aussie defense is far from being watertight, we need to spark some creativity in our backs. We need to actually bring our back 3 into the offensive line. If we achieve this, I think the Lions will prevail.

 

[KAPman]

would have o'brien at 8 because of his ball-carrying firepower. Faleteu is a great hardworker, in attack and defence, but doesnt break the gain line as hard as O'Brien. The balance is the likes of Roberts, o'brien, gray bashing the ball up, getting over the gain line and creating oppurtunies for the quicker more skillful players to work their magic and to get the ball to the wingers in space. Having Croft and Tipuric would be a great balance at 6 and 7, as both are quick, good distributors and will support/or bring gainline breakers and players in space into play.
Gatland is not being attackminded with his coaching, like ian mcgeechan was in the last tour.
Australia aren't particularly attackminded right now either, and playing with an aim to win rather than play not to lose is the way to beat them.

 

[Swansea Osprey]

Both BOD and Davies had a poor game last Saturday BUT lets not forget we were playing with TWO Outside Centres ? Before last Saturday I think both have had very good tours ? I think Davies got the nod over BOD purely because he and Roberts are used to playing together ?

One thing that does grip my **** though is all this Gatland the Welsh Coach picks 10 Welsh players rubbish ! Gatland the LIONS coach has picked 22 LIONS for the third test ! Too many people care what players from which country are selected ? They are all Lions and where they come from is irrelevant ? Gatland is going to pick what he believes is the best team and where they come from would not have come into it ?

 

[FlukeArtist]

I'm a bit neutral about this series.
I do come from Welsh stock, but last week I was cheering on Australia (so it would make for an interesting last match)

This week i'll be cheering on the Lions.
Not for anything to do with my heritage, but (IMO) for the fact that the Lions need to win a series in order to validate the Lions as a team, and as a drawcard beyond their own home nations.

 

[j'nuh]

One thing that does grip my **** though is all this Gatland the Welsh Coach picks 10 Welsh players rubbish ! Gatland the LIONS coach has picked 22 LIONS for the third test ! Too many people care what players from which country are selected ? They are all Lions and where they come from is irrelevant ? Gatland is going to pick what he believes is the best team and where they come from would not have come into it ?

Gatland has a very personal attachment to the Welsh team and I think that it clouds his judgements. I don't think it's malicious or anything, just that there's a level of subconscious favouritism going on. Same can be said of Farrell, Rowntree and Howley.

 

[Veal]

If all this internecine family bickering by Lions fans on this site is indicative of what is going on in the Lions camp, then the Wallabies will be facing an unhappy rabble. Somehow I think not... </SPAN>

All coaches have to make controversial and tough calls......and these players are professionals. I bet BOD and the others who missed out have taken it on the chin and said "let’s get on with it and get behind the match day 22". Still a lot of bloody good players are going to take the park and once out there, they will give their all.
</SPAN>
That said, I think the Wallabies now have the edge in preparation and combinations and the new Lions players coming in will be a bit underdone. A reversal of game one scenario. </SPAN>The loss of Warburton and the inclusion of George smith is a another factor in the Wallabies favour....but then Halfpenny will keep them honest all game.....

another close one !</SPAN>

 

[irelandfan123]

Im very unhappy that O'Driscoll has been dropped, considering his stature, and that he is one of the few leaders the lions have left in their team. He's not been at his best in the 2 tests, but on the pitch he has this aura around him and the respect of the other players, which is needed in any team. His defence in the second test was as solid as anyone. Also if they were going to bring Roberts back, the perfect combonation to break down the aussie defence would have been O'Driscoll/Roberts, a very well balanced centre pairing, and proven to be a threat.
Gatland has taken a blunt view in that this game plan of bashing up the middle and trying to break australia down with hit-up rugby, with a focus on winning penalties and/or kicking for territory is the way to beat Australia. It's the same game-plan wales have tried against australia for the last 8 tests against them, and it didnt work, and it was the way they wanted to play in the 2nd test and didnt work.
As the All Blacks, as South Africa, as France, and England in the past have proved, you need a balance of power, flair, guild and subtly to beat Australia, and the Lions have the players available to play that balanced style of rugby, but gatland has chosen not to play that way, and will backfire if the lions dont win on saturday.

My XV for saturday would have been:
15: Leigh Halfpenny
14: Alex Cuthbert
13: Brian O'Driscoll (c)
12: Jamie Roberts
11: George North
10: Jonny Sexton
9: Ben Youngs
1: Alex Corbisiaro
2: Tom Youngs
3: Adam Jones
4: Richie Gray
5: Alun Wyn Jones
6: Tom Croft
7: Justin Tipuric
8: Sean O'Brien

Bench: 16: Richie Hibbard. 17: Ryan Grant. 18: Dan Cole. 19: Geoff Parling. 20: Toby Faleteu. 21: Mike Phillips. 22: Stuart Hogg. 23: Jon Davies

This should be the tagline for the third test

 

[McTallshort]

Lots of people saying Gatland has made a tough call regarding BOD but I think he has bottled it. He had a choice between dropping an aging superstar in perhaps the last year of his game who Gatland will never have to coach again or dropping a young lad who he will have to work with until the next world cup at the very least. Easy to drop the superstar, if the Lions win he is a genius and he will be a hero among the welsh players he showed faith in and if the Lions lose he just goes back to Wales and gets on with his job. Either way upsetting BOD and a load of Irishmen is hardly going to bother him, upsetting a player who is likely to be a regular in his Welsh team up to the world cup could cause him problems, the same goes for the other 50/50 calls he had to make at hooker, blindside, No8, scrum half and inside centre.

 

[munstermuffin]

You're chaffing out of your arse there mate, no Irish player got carded in the '08 match, 2 Welsh players did. Although I do remember Bernard Jackman getting away with just a penalty for a blatant cheap shot into a pinned Ryan Jones's back, nowhere near the ball... Definitely wasn't a try, was a great cover tackle from Phillips I believe. That one was definitely a well won Welsh win, not just luck... (Seriously what is it with people and going 'oh that was just luck' every time we win a bloody 6 Nations?!)

Of course North and Davies tearing your defence apart had nothing to do with the 2012 win too

My bad had wrong game.
And in 2012 yea Wales played ok but were lucky in that against us it was a penalty that won it for them against a poor Ireland and 2013 was extremely lucky

But Wales won't be lucky in my eyes when they win against SH teams like Aus or NZ and don't do it on the back of losses to Samoa.

 

[Peat]

Ok - trying to add some positivity here - five good things about this

1. Corbs is back - the Lions have their best scrum out

2. Faletau, O'Brien, Roberts - We've got some ball carriers who can bend the gainline back

3. George Smith - Look, I know he's on the other team, and it'd be easier if he wasn't playing, but its fantastic to see him play another international. A legend graces us.

4. Poite - A Northern ref for a very Northern team. No complaints of not understanding what he's about

5. Four more years - Soon we can get back to speculating about the next tour, by far the most entertaining part of it!

 

[munstermuffin]

Ok - trying to add some positivity here - five good things about this

1. Corbs is back - the Lions have their best scrum out

2. Faletau, O'Brien, Roberts - We've got some ball carriers who can bend the gainline back

3. George Smith - Look, I know he's on the other team, and it'd be easier if he wasn't playing, but its fantastic to see him play another international. A legend graces us.

4. Poite - A Northern ref for a very Northern team. No complaints of not understanding what he's about

5. Four more years - Soon we can get back to speculating about the next tour, by far the most entertaining part of it!

Not to drag it down but he may actually suit the Aussies alot more than he suits us.
And as for Smith that not positive for the Lions as he still is 1 of the best 7's in the world. And we don't even have a 7

 

[Peat]

It's a positive about this game ye giant illiterate. And Poite - yeah, Smith will be happy about him, but their scrum won't, and at least there can be no complaints about a lack of familiarity.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's a positive about this game ye giant illiterate. And Poite - yeah, Smith will be happy about him, but their scrum won't, and at least there can be no complaints about a lack of familiarity.

No scrum is happy when Poite is in control

 

[Ospreylian]

Don't think I buy into this whole Gatland Welsh favoritism thing. If that was the case I think he would have picked Cuthbert over Bowe (or at least had him on the bench) and Tipuric over O'Brien.

A few of the positions he has picked Welsh guys in have been very closely contested. There wasn't much between Hibbard and Youngs for example, and I'm sure Gatland has gone for the former because of how he seemed to add something to the strength of the scrum last weekend. Same goes for Philips, Gatland had to pick between three very underperforming scrum-halves and I think he made the right call, not because Philips is Welsh but because he will best cope with the physicality around the fringes from the likes of Hooper.

What I'm saying is, it's easy to pass judgement and make wild claims about "subconscious favouritism" (which I think is slightly ridiculous and makes people sound like they think they're experts in psychology), but none of us have any idea as to the true motives of this selection, how individual players have been doing in training, whether or not other coaches were involved or consulted in the selection process, or whether this selection suits a certain game plan not yet divulged that is specific to the circumstances of the weekend.

So let's not get on our high horses and say that we each individually would do a better job at being Lions head coach, because that's a load of bull****. It must be one of the toughest jobs in world rugby, and any decision you make could cause hissy fits like the one we've witnessed in this thread. And tbh I think it's astounding that people are saying they're going to give up on the Lions and support Australia. F*** that. If you're that fickle then good riddance to you.

BOD was a great player, but only good at present (nothing amazing or outstanding). Why is it that when he falls from his ridiculously high pedestal everyone treats it like a death in the family? If Halfpenny were dropped (who has been my man of the tour, incidently) for the last test I would be disappointed, but I wouldn't go on here making up crackpot conspiracies about the coaches motives, or lose faith in the Lions.

Certain people need to grow up and support the Lions on saturday. Just enjoy it for a game. Cut the coaches some slack, you have no idea whatsoever what their reasons are for anything.

 

[icr9214]

Totally agree...I have been on a few chat rooms and on one of them someone listed a number of potential tour awards.
Tom Youngs was generally not only the player of the tour so far but also the most surprising. Hibbard was no doubt the first choice prior to any of the pre test matches but a combination of Youngs performing very well and Hibbard being at best average gave Gatland no choice but to select him. Having been one of the few players in both tests to perform he then gets dropped?
Faletau was a definate change that was needed. Heaslip has not really put a foot wrong but I think Faletau is more of an attacking threat.
Do not get me started on BOD.... Although an England Fan, I would challenge anyone to explain or justify that bomb shell.
I agree that the partnership between him and Davies has not been exceptional but stats tell a woeful story here! BOD in the second test 14 tackles, missed none. Davies 7 tackles missed 3 !!! That alone would suggest a weakness. Yes he and Roberts have played a lot of rugby together and no doubt Gatland would try to justify this by talking about combinations etc, but nonsense. BOD and Roberts performed exceptionally well in the last Lions tour (some commented it was one of the better centre partnerships) even though the series was lost the midfield defence and penetration was very good.
Take it s step further and you could also say that Tuilagi should have started ahead of Roberts not just on form but his fitness has been tested and he and BOD have played together and performed well. That then would have totally blown the need to drop BOD and Davies would have been dropped as I was fully expecting.
To think that a strong Welsh contingent could be the answer when they have not beaten the Wallablies since 2008 (and that was by no way convincing) and with Warburton out... cannot see it.
Even if the Lions were to go on and win, the tour for me has been stained and one of the best players in the world treated like dirt.