The whole England set up

[Bang]

If you had the power to change the whole England set up from Rob Andrews all the coaches and the players who would you replace them with???

 

[melon]

How about you tell us who you'd replace first <_< ....(so that it isn't seen as a hollow thread which would be spam of course)

I won't pretend to be an expert on English rugby, but I think Wilkinson needs to be shafted once and for all, unless of course he pulls off some stellar performances with his club.

Also, Vainikolo....How is he going? The last I heard, he was still the same, talented player who showed his potential once every 10 games which quite simply isn't good enough. Is this still the case? I know that he has played in the Six Nations this year, but he hasn't really been all that special has he? Fill me in guys. I might be completely wrong about him this time around.

Hmmm I think I went a bit off topic on that Vainikolo bit, so don't take too much notice.

 

[Nidhogg]

Swap the entire England set-up for the Saxons set-up.

 

[Bang]

How about you tell us who you'd replace first <_< ....(so that it isn't seen as a hollow thread which would be spam of course)

I won't pretend to be an expert on English rugby, but I think Wilkinson needs to be shafted once and for all, unless of course he pulls off some stellar performances with his club.

Also, Vainikolo....How is he going? The last I heard, he was still the same, talented player who showed his potential once every 10 games which quite simply isn't good enough. Is this still the case? I know that he has played in the Six Nations this year, but he hasn't really been all that special has he? Fill me in guys. I might be completely wrong about him this time around.

Hmmm I think I went a bit off topic on that Vainikolo bit, so don't take too much notice.
[/b]

Ok I'll give it a go..

Director â€" Sir Clive


Head Coach â€" Shaun Edwards
Forwards Coach â€" Dean Ryan
Defence Coach - Mike Ford

15 â€" Josh LEWSEY
14 â€" Chris ASHTON
13 â€" Mathew TAIT
12 â€" Olly BARKLEY
11 â€" James SIMPSON-DANIEL
10 â€" Danny CIPRIANI
9 â€" Harry ELLIS
8 â€" Nick EASTER
7 â€" Tom CROFT
6 â€" James HASKELL
5 â€" Steve BORTHWICK
4 â€" Nick KENNEDY
3 â€" Matt STEVENS
2 â€" Lee MEARS
1 â€" Andrew SHERIDAN
_____________________________________
16 â€" Jordon CRANE
17 â€" Phil VICKERY
18 â€" Dylan HARTLEY
19 â€" Simon SHAW
20 â€" Danny CARE
21 â€" Charlie HODGSON
22 â€" Anthony ALLEN

 

[Hieu]

very nice Bang. Almost agree with you however I would slightly change it:

Clive still Director with Edwards Head Coach, Ryan Forwards and Ford Defensive but my 22 would be:

15 â€" Danny CIPRIANI (Wasps)
14 â€" Dan SCARBROUGH (Saracens)
13 â€" Mathew TAIT (Bath)
12 â€" Olly BARKLEY (Bath)
11 â€" James SIMPSON-DANIEL (Gloucs)
10 â€" Toby FLOOD (Newcastle)
9 â€" Harry ELLIS (Leicester Tigers)
8 â€" Nick EASTER ('Quins)
7 â€" Lewis MOODY (Leicester Tigers)
6 â€" James HASKELL (Wasps)
5 â€" Steve BORTHWICK (Bath)
4 â€" Jim EVANS ('Quins)
3 â€" Phil VICKERY (Wasps)
2 â€" Lee MEARS (Bath)
1 â€" Andrew SHERIDAN (Sale)
_____________________________________
16 â€" Jordan CRANE (Leicester Tigers)
17 â€" Matt STEVENS (Bath)
18 â€" Dylan HARTLEY (Northampton Saints)
19 â€" George SKIVINGTON (Wasps)
20 â€" Richard WIGGLESWORTH (Sale)
21 â€" Ryan LAMB (Gloucester)
22 â€" Anthony ALLEN (Gloucester)

Slight edit to yours and some of them are outrageous. Sinbad needs to be in the team though and we need some young blood in the team too.

 

[stormmaster1]

TBH i don't think selection is the root of the problem, just the aspect that most people re focusing on. Personally i'd try and change a few key ingredients in terms of players and get a coach with some balls. Against scotland the forwards failed big time. They simply didn't front up. There was no way you win in those conditions unless you go out intent on dominating physically at the breakdown, the tackle and the set piece (and don't give away needless penalties). Yet the selection wasn't terrible in the forwards, it's just that they didn't front up.



Why didn't they front up- was not enough emphasis placed on these basic things, or were the players just not up for it on the day? was it captain or coach or all players at fault?



TBH i'd blame Ashton, Vickery and the players in that order.



What would i change??? Any changes i'd make would be to firstly make the players play with pride and passion like in Paris rather than the balnd variety of turning up we saw at Murrayfield. At Wasps Edwards seems to be one of the best coaches in the world at getting players to front up for big matches and for this reason i'd want him in even not considering his defensive coaching abilities. Get the players to front up and play with pride for more than 1 match at a time and then get the backline changed.



I'd only make small changes in the backline, looking for defensive ability and balance. Someone safe at fullback (Lewsey maybe), drop Wilko to the bench, but keep noon for defensive ability and someone to anchor the backline (TIndall would be the better choice but he's injured). Simpson Daniel needs to be involved and if persisting with Vanikolo we need to have a plan on how to use him well. He's most effective in 1 on 1s, not 1 on 3s. I think he's batter suited to coming off the bench though.

 

[shazbooger]

Hows about you stop importing talent from abroad and try bringing your own talent through.

Everyone gives out shite about Balshaw's selection but your all on here asking him to be relaced by Cipriani. Toby Flood is a 10 playing 12, Cipriani would be a 10 playing 15. Wheres the out and out 15? Surely you should have 4 or 5 of em queuing up to play for England?

Other players like Allen, Sinbad, Tait and Abendanon are all hyped to the hilt, but in all reality they havent matched the hype in any way that would force them into the team.

It aint just a matter of poor selection (though that is definately a factor), but is no one asking where all the talent is? Cause from across the water where I'm not too heavily affected by the hype spun out on Sky, I just dont see it at the moment.

And I'm not saying were doing it any better over here. Its just a little more obvious in the GPL

 

[Prestwick]

Dropping Vainikolo won't solve all the problems and focusing on this idea that we're importing an England XV from abroad only takes the focus away from the fundemental problems surrounding the issues of England's coaching, motivation and selection.

I'm sorry but poor selection is a major (if not primary) cause of this problem. Same players, same favourites, no chances taken and no experiments made. It is a stale, conservative, flacid way of running a show dressed up as "pragmatism" and while it may deceive by means of smoke & mirrors for a match or two at a time, it is ultimately unsustainable.

Sir Clive's method of selection frankly stunned and enraged the old powers that may be in English rugby. The concept of going through every player with a fine toothcomb until he had a 22 he could trust implicitly to follow him and Martin Johnson to the edge of hell and back was unheard of then and, sadly, since. If we are to rise again, we must adopt those incredibly ruthless methods of selection.

I don't care what anyone says, simply saying "oh, we'll just select Care, Cipriani, Ashton, Sinbad, Hipkiss, etc and we'll be fine" just doesn't cut it. What if they don't play well together? What if their first few outings are absolute disasters which damage the players forever? What if they're mishandled by incompetents like Ashton & Robinson? You need to make sure that your XV is the best XV. You need to mould your squad to your liking. Ashton simply hasn't done that. All he has done is taken what Andy Robinson has done and added a few frillies around the edges. Window dressing, nothing more and nothing less.

In a way therefore, I actually quite like what Marc Lievremont is doing over in France. Old salts whinge about him ruining the Six Nations with his endless merry go round but he is literally getting as many young, aspiring French players as he can find and saying "okay, you think you're hot, go out there and show me." Now that is selection by the seat of your pants and one wonders that we should spend a year doing a slightly scaled down version of that with all of our prospective young guns to see what our best squad is.

I disagree that the hype surrounding the likes of Sinbad, Allen, Lamb, etc is unfounded. Their worth has been proven in the GP, in the HEC (Gloucester simply would not be in the Quarter Finals without these guys. End of story) and with the England Saxons.

Essentially where I see Gloucester's demolition of the Ospreys and Ulster early on in their group during this years HEC, you will probably only see Gloucester's trouncing at the hands of the Ospreys later on in that very same group.

This points to one conclusion: the talent is there, it is proven to be there but obviously, they're fallible and sometimes they will lose against a side with their tails up and with some superhuman ability to play running rugby in the driving rain (i.e. the Ospreys during that rather interesting match).

I would be interested to see your views if Gloucester win the HEC this year. Brilliance by Lamb, S-D & Allen or more a victory powered by Glaw's foreign imports like Lawson, Paterson and Bortolami?

So why aren't they being selected then? The problem with the suggestions of unfounded hype is that they depend on an assumption that Ashton, Wells, Ford and Andrew are impartial, unbiased and generally open to any suggestion that rolls through the door. This, as we have found to our cost and disgust so far, is completely and utterly untrue. If it were true, I'd be believing that Eddie O'Sullivan loves to select plays through blindly throwing darts at names pinned onto a wall.

The fact is that you have Wells, a dyed in the wool old school rugby man with a strong personality, Ashton, a dreamer and a liberal thinker lacking the political will to make a stand against Wells and Andrews and thus getting browbeaten, Ford who quite frankly, I have no idea what input (if any) he has into England selection and Andrews who, in classic English sports administrator style, pushes his lads from Newcastle ceaselessly day and night.

Vested interests, a lack of political will and infighting between selectors behind the scenes mean that you inevitably fudge to settle differences rather than having the courage to dare to experiment radically with your selections or to even consider testing new players during every international. Thus, players who do not have backing at the top echelons, who despite putting in stonking performances on the field for their clubs day in day out, who have shown skill, pace, daring, adventure, intelligence and maturity and who are driving three English clubs to a possible HEC win this year are cruely cast aside and ignored while the battle at HQ rages on.

As for the Balshaw issue, we're not asking for a certain player to replace Balshaw, we're only asking for Cipriani because he is the only vaguely qualified FB in Ashton's squad right now, which thus means that ergo, he would be the only viable candidate at full back. Simple economics there really.

What we are really asking for in this case is for someone to pick a decent full back who plays well day in day out in the Guinness Premiership to replace a man who patently cannot handle the rough and tumble of International Rugby. Balshaw cannot hack it and someone else needs a go.

 

[gingergenius]

Selection isn't the number one problem. For each of the 6N matches we've played we've been better on paper and should have won all of them.

Head Coach: Dean Ryan or Jake White

Keep Brian Ashton as attack coach, he's a good guy but just has no management skills

Shaun Edwards/ Dave Ellis as defence coaches, I don't know why the 2 best defence coaches in the world are English yet neither of them work for England...

As for selection, my first criteria is that they're not too old for the 20011 world cup. So no Lewsey. Vickery's got to go and Ben Kay. Maybe keep Shaw around for a year or so because he's amazing but don't send him to New Zealand.

Next, there are 60+ English players talented enough to cut it at International rugby. It's not so much about who you pick, it's how you organise them. We got no halftime team talk against Wales and Vickery's not the kind of leader to pick them up. There was no gameplan against the Scots... Coaching is the key. Then you can work out your best team. Wales and France have both got their coaches spot on and they're able to mix and match at will. England have only changed through injury.

 

[shazbooger]

I disagree that the hype surrounding the likes of Sinbad, Allen, Lamb, etc is unfounded. Their worth has been proven in the GP, in the HEC (Gloucester simply would not be in the Quarter Finals without these guys. End of story) and with the England Saxons. [/b]

Your talking about the same Lamb that went AWOL everytime Tuilagi ran down his channel against Leicster? Or Croft, Lipman etc who were selected against Scotland and simply dissapeared. Rees, one of the best #7 in the NH or so Sky would have us believe, has consistently been outplayed on the international stage by some fairly average packs. Lund, Varndell, Palmer etc. I'm not saying they are poor players, but maybe, just maybe, they arent actually as good as everyone over there thinks.

Your spot on about giving the guys a chance. Maybe the could grow into the roles a bit more if given a sustained run in the squad over time. To assume that the GP is anything close to the standard required to play international rugby, never mind one of the SH teams (which is a whole different level again) would be a mistake, but at least give the guys a chance to prove themselves over time.

Yeah so I spose your right. There is a fundamental problem with selection in the English selection policy, but personally I think that handing over control to the clubs themselves means that the £ rules, and your international side will suffer as a result.

 

[ScarletLion]

Hands off Shaun Edwards!! He's got a 2 year contract!!

England need to get rid of the Blazers at the top. Until that's done, then there will always be a Brian Ashton SOMEWHERE in the setup.

 

[bacon]

I actually quite like what Marc Lievremont is doing over in France. Old salts whinge about him ruining the Six Nations with his endless merry go round but he is literally getting as many young, aspiring French players as he can find and saying "okay, you think you're hot, go out there and show me." Now that is selection by the seat of your pants and one wonders that we should spend a year doing a slightly scaled down version of that with all of our prospective young guns to see what our best squad is.

[/b]

i agree totally.
coaching is the first and most pressing thing we need to sort out.
gingergenius is right i think i'd go for white though no ties and a clean sheet. the coach also needs to have a free hand from the rfu to do what he want and not have to opperate with one hand bound by endless regulations and interferance from rob andrew and the rest.

as for 'over hyped youngsters' the only way to find out is to stick them in the deep end and see if they swim. some may not step up (a la charlie H) but without experiment we'll never know. yes we may loose some games but i'd rather (and i'd wager most would) lose on paddys day but play 2/3 of the team new talent than win with this old group. at least we learn something that way.

also every unless i'm mistaken(have seen many games but don't remember us loosing recently) our saxsons and U20's have done very well showing that we doo have lots of talent coming through and it's not just the GP making them look good.

i would also like to see less forgieners in the GP but it's not that bad yet.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotemain'> I disagree that the hype surrounding the likes of Sinbad, Allen, Lamb, etc is unfounded. Their worth has been proven in the GP, in the HEC (Gloucester simply would not be in the Quarter Finals without these guys. End of story) and with the England Saxons. [/b]

Your talking about the same Lamb that went AWOL everytime Tuilagi ran down his channel against Leicster? Or Croft, Lipman etc who were selected against Scotland and simply dissapeared. Rees, one of the best #7 in the NH or so Sky would have us believe, has consistently been outplayed on the international stage by some fairly average packs. Lund, Varndell, Palmer etc. I'm not saying they are poor players, but maybe, just maybe, they arent actually as good as everyone over there thinks.[/b][/quote]

I do see what you mean, although I think the work rate from Croft and Lipman was phenominal. Note the amount of turnover they produced against Scotland which was then wasted by the rest of the team. The problem was that even the very finest performance can be hidden by the sheer turgidness exhibited by the rest of the team. By the same measure, against France Jamie Noon's ineffectiveness at center in attack was masked by his monster tackle and by the general forward effort all around. Anyway, I'm side tracking..

..I think what you're looking at is not a question of whether they deserve the hype but rather why can't they consistently perform against every international team instead of just France, Australia & Italy. I could point to BOD going AWOL in major games and I definitely could say that I've seen guys like ROG and POC go walkies in a rather obvious and crap way, I mean, we saw them go collectively AWOL in a big way during the World Cup. However, we also accept that when they do get back on the bandwagon of form, they are the guys to rely on either at club, international or Lions level.

In a similar way, we have seen exactly what the likes of Lamb, Allen, Crane, Haskell, etc can do but we find ourselves cursing when some are cast by the wayside by petty disputes between coaches or between club & country and others perform excellently in some games and horribly in others. Consistency is something which not even New Zealand have mastered yet and only the legendary teams of old like the Untouchables or Sir Clive's England have mastered it (and even they were starting to rattle and fall apart towards their respective retirements).

 

[Gavin]

England must re-vamp their whole take on rugby. Rob Andrew must go. I truely believe that one of the reasons Johnny Wilkinson has not been put on the bench, until now, is due to the influence of Andrew. Wilkinson was Andrew's love child and taught him everything he knows, I wouldn't be surprised if he also breastfed Johnny. Perhaps England should bring back some of their 2003 World Cup winning side into a management or coaching form. That England side had it all; power, pace, a family-type bound, intelligence, passion.

There have been a few articles flying around the World saying that Martin Johnson is getting back into rugby. Now might be the time for England to offer him a post, maybe he could take over Rob Andrew's job, forwards coach or even the coach of England.

England also need to experiment NOW and fast. For all nations the Six Nations should have been a building block of the 2011 World Cup in New Zealand. I'm not an expert in the forwards but I wouldn't mind seeing a young England backline for the Summer Tests;

9 - Danny Care / Harry Ellis

10 - Danny Cipriani

11 - Tom Varndell

12 - Shane Geraghty

13 - Toby Flood

14 - James-Simpson Daniel

15 - Matthew Tait