The "Religion" thread

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 7 2009, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Nov 7 2009, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What the hell are you talking about? That's an extremely arrogant statement. Give examples of "social values" please.[/b]

When did fact become arrogance? Was in not the philosophs who based their ideals for most modern, western governments on the idea of man created in the image of God, born with inaliable rights? It was both the motivation of the disposal of the monarchies and the foundation of the framework of the American government, which in turn has been used as a template for other western psuedo-democracies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not waving the US Flag here, I'm simply talking about the framework of bills of rights, etc... These are based on enlightened thought after a deep study of scripture and classical (ancient greek) writings. John Locke, Voltaire, Montesquieu, Rousseau, etc while not necesarrily religious people were Theists. Like you, they did not like organized religion, yet they did acknowledge the basis of the values that framed their thoughts. I'm not asking anyone on this forum to become religious. I'm simply defending my faith, and the faith of others.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Nov 7 2009, 04:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think he is talking about values that you can find in religious societies like death penalty, condemnation of homosexuality, condemnation of birth control, social apartheid, condemnation of atheism and liberty of thought, corporal punishments, inept dietary laws, sex control, institutionalized gender discrimination, polygamy...

Face it; if you live in a democracy it is actually INSPITE of your so-called "Religious Values". I don't need to be force-fed unrealistic children stories and twisted logic and "values" to know right from wrong. I got my personal judgment for that. Neither need I sex rules from a guy who doesn't even know what it is to have sex. And don't get me started on the stupidity of not living together with a person BEFORE getting married...

But hey, everybody knows that Communists eat babies and practice incest on a daily basis... [/b]

Your views are flawed at best. Do you seriously think that I'm promoting the idea of apartheid as a positive light of religious thought?
I'm talking about things like our views on stealing, lying, cheating, murder, adultry, etc... those are the social values I'm referring to.
[/b][/quote]

Our views do not stem directly from religion. They stem from human compassion. An example: absolutely integral to Inca society (untouched by Christianity till the 16th Century) were 3 rules - Don not steal, do not lie, do not be lazy. They did not derive these from your God. The got them from the human sense of what is right and what is wrong. Social values have nothing to do with Christianity.

What's more, at the same time these Western Philosophers were coming up with such wonderful ideas, what else was happening? Western Imperialists, hiding under the shroud of religious zeal, were committing genocide against the heathens in the Americas. The USA may have been a bastion of the democracy and freedom that shaped the world (which they of course derived from Christianity), but they were also the ones to say negroes were '3/5 of a man' in order to exempt them from human rights and freedoms. Of course, this idea did not come from Christianity... <_<

 

[O'Rothlain]

A lot of the crap you are blaming on Christianity should more directly be blamed on eugenics, which Christians rallied against (see GK Chesterton). Those ideas (apartheid, genocide) were spurn by evolutionary ideas taken to their worst extreme.
To say that society doesn't get it's values from religion is unbelievable. Have you never taken a sociology or a western civiliazation course? I'm not arguing necessarily about christianity, but you can't name a society whose ideas of right and wrong, good and bad haven't come from their religious teachings. There has never been a "Godless" society in History. For the first time in recorded history we are seeing a percentage of the population deny the existence of a supreme being. It doesn't mean that your views have not been shaped by religious thought and teaching.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 8 2009, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

A lot of the crap you are blaming on Christianity should more directly be blamed on eugenics, which Christians rallied against (see GK Chesterton). Those ideas (apartheid, genocide) were spurn by evolutionary ideas taken to their worst extreme.
To say that society doesn't get it's values from religion is unbelievable. Have you never taken a sociology or a western civiliazation course? I'm not arguing necessarily about christianity, but you can't name a society whose ideas of right and wrong, good and bad haven't come from their religious teachings. There has never been a "Godless" society in History. For the first time in recorded history we are seeing a percentage of the population deny the existence of a supreme being. It doesn't mean that your views have not been shaped by religious thought and teaching.[/b]

Ok so you're saying every single religion everywhere throughout all time has taught ideas of right and wrong.

1) That could get into a chicken/ egg debate as to what came first, religion or morals.

2) Is this not further evidence of the fact that religion is a fundamentally human creation, which is why all organised religions of all kinds have in common belief in a divine retribution that keeps society in order? Of course if you have the power of fear in people, you can manipulate them to obey a set of laws.

3) This does not mean, however, that my values come from religious teaching. My values are my own; a combination of thoughts from the culture I grow up in and external sources from a broader spectrum... ALL shaped by me. This is not the work of religion, this is the work of reason.

And as for 'for the first time' this and that, that's called progress. It took 2000 years for democracy to be widely expressed to its fullest extent... no restrictions on slaves, women, blacks etc. Hopefully this will enable future human beings to become independently minded enough to cut through the bullshit they're fed by religion and tabloid-style news.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 8 2009, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 8 2009, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A lot of the crap you are blaming on Christianity should more directly be blamed on eugenics, which Christians rallied against (see GK Chesterton). Those ideas (apartheid, genocide) were spurn by evolutionary ideas taken to their worst extreme.
To say that society doesn't get it's values from religion is unbelievable. Have you never taken a sociology or a western civiliazation course? I'm not arguing necessarily about christianity, but you can't name a society whose ideas of right and wrong, good and bad haven't come from their religious teachings. There has never been a "Godless" society in History. For the first time in recorded history we are seeing a percentage of the population deny the existence of a supreme being. It doesn't mean that your views have not been shaped by religious thought and teaching.[/b]

Ok so you're saying every single religion everywhere throughout all time has taught ideas of right and wrong.

1) That could get into a chicken/ egg debate as to what came first, religion or morals.

2) Is this not further evidence of the fact that religion is a fundamentally human creation, which is why all organised religions of all kinds have in common belief in a divine retribution that keeps society in order? Of course if you have the power of fear in people, you can manipulate them to obey a set of laws.

3) This does not mean, however, that my values come from religious teaching. My values are my own; a combination of thoughts from the culture I grow up in and external sources from a broader spectrum... ALL shaped by me. This is not the work of religion, this is the work of reason.

And as for 'for the first time' this and that, that's called progress. It took 2000 years for democracy to be widely expressed to its fullest extent... no restrictions on slaves, women, blacks etc. Hopefully this will enable future human beings to become independently minded enough to cut through the bullshit they're fed by religion and tabloid-style news.
[/b][/quote]
By your own attestment in your comment "3" you give credo to my argument. Your values, whilst your own decision, have been shaped by the world around you. That world, whether you like it or not, has been shaped by the hand of religion (and note I'm not saying God, just religion). Just because you don't like the world around you (one with the fingerprints of religion all over it), you can't deny the past that has shaped your present.
Democracy in many forms has been around a lot longer than you think. The problem with both religion and politics is that they are extremely sensitive to corruption. I'm in no way here to justify the abuse of power by those involved in religion. I understand peoples distrust of any instituion that holds power over their adherents. I get that. However, I have and will continue to defend the premises on which religion is built.

 

[C A Iversen]

There seems to be a real "anger" at christianity in this thread. A lot of good things have come from religion and a lot of bad. Those who are pretending that christianity is evil are really deluded. The basic modern principles of it are extremely good for a lot of people. On the flip side, it does also tend to be abused by some weirdos. Like nearly every other thing in life, it's got it's good and it's bad.

 

[feicarsinn]

The worst thing about Christianity is the blatant hypocrisy eg. The pope living in a palace, religious wars etc. I doubt its what jesus would have had in mind

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Those who are pretending that christianity is evil are really deluded.[/b]

First of all no one is pretending. Secondly its not specific to just Christianity, its Abrahamic religions as a whole. Thirdly, what do you base this statement on? Quite a few posters have taken the time to articulate their arguements. Are there any you want to respond to specifically or is this another general denial of anything anti-religion?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

On the flip side, it does also tend to be abused by some weirdos.[/b]

Why credit religion with everything good, but blame all the evil perpetrated by those same religions on "weirdo's" (probably Athiests eh?).

• 4% of American Priests that served between 1950 and 2002 have been accused of abusing Children (here).
• 21 Priests in the Diocese of Ferns were alleged to have committed up to 100 acts of child abuse (sexual) between 1962 and 2002.
• http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30838320/
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8059826.stm

4% of priests? Hows that for moral values eh?

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 10 2009, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those who are pretending that christianity is evil are really deluded.[/b]

First of all no one is pretending. Secondly its not specific to just Christianity, its Abrahamic religions as a whole. Thirdly, what do you base this statement on? Quite a few posters have taken the time to articulate their arguements. Are there any you want to respond to specifically or is this another general denial of anything anti-religion?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

On the flip side, it does also tend to be abused by some weirdos.[/b]

Why credit religion with everything good, but blame all the evil perpetrated by those same religions on "weirdo's" (probably Athiests eh?).

• 4% of American Priests that served between 1950 and 2002 have been accused of abusing Children (here).
• 21 Priests in the Diocese of Ferns were alleged to have committed up to 100 acts of child abuse (sexual) between 1962 and 2002.
• http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30838320/
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8059826.stm

4% of priests? Hows that for moral values eh?
[/b][/quote]

Sorry, I can't be arsed to articulate my statement on this occasion. It's not a denial of anything anti-religion. I said that there's good AND bad in religion.

"Why credit religion with everything good, but blame all the evil perpetrated by those same religions on "weirdo's" (probably Athiests eh?)". I never did that at all, I believe anyone who commits evil acts, religious or not is a weirdo. Also, I am neither a religious person nor an athiest.

Wow your a blind dick at times. Those priests pass you by or something?

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 9 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Sorry, I can't be arsed to articulate my statement on this occasion.[/b]

Grand so, I look forward to hearing it when you can be bothered.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 9 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Wow your a blind dick at times. Those priests pass you by or something?[/b]

lol. You come out with something as bland and pointless as that previous statement and when someone challenges you on it you come out with that?

Go find a nice easy thread for yourself eh? Or at least read whats been posted before you.

 

[stormer2010]

This debate is all good and well but in the end it comes to Fourie du Preez winning the IRB 2009 player of the year award.

 

[feicarsinn]

HAH

get real

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 10 2009, 01:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 9 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I can't be arsed to articulate my statement on this occasion.[/b]

Grand so, I look forward to hearing it when you can be bothered.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 9 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Wow your a blind dick at times. Those priests pass you by or something?[/b]

lol. You come out with something as bland and pointless as that previous statement and when someone challenges you on it you come out with that?

Go find a nice easy thread for yourself eh? Or at least read whats been posted before you.
[/b][/quote]

I just have enough brains to realise when an argument is eternally unwinable, unlike yourself. You challenged me on things I never said. You are in effect a liar by doing that. While your busy thinking yourself so smart, please realise your the only one here who's called my statement into question, and then made up things I never said.

I'm not into the "he who makes the last quip wins" kind of sandbox crap that you are, so I'll let you have your next sad, vindictive, deceitful stab at me and I'll sod off to another thread.

 

[St Helens RLFC]

I am thinking about closing this thread. I am sick of people calling my religion "evil."

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Those who are pretending that christianity is evil are really deluded.[/b]

First of all you said the above which is seriously funny stuff. Quite ironic too. I asked you to expand on it cause its either an ignorant or lazy thing to say given what has already been written in this thread.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The basic modern principles of it are extremely good for a lot of people. On the flip side, it does also tend to be abused by some weirdos.[/b]

You are saying that evil is not really the Churches fault as its Weirdos that done it.

Twice I challenged you on it and instead of clarifying it as requested you seemed dissapointed that I hadnt been abused by priests as a child and then call me sad, vindictive and deceitful?

 

[feicarsinn]

Call me a fool for making light hearted comments in the current "serious thread" but I for one can't believe this hasn't been posted yet:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VGyma1F49fQ&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VGyma1F49fQ&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 9 2009, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those who are pretending that christianity is evil are really deluded.[/b]

First of all you said the above which is seriously funny stuff. Quite ironic too. I asked you to expand on it cause its either an ignorant or lazy thing to say given what has already been written in this thread.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The basic modern principles of it are extremely good for a lot of people. On the flip side, it does also tend to be abused by some weirdos.[/b]

You are saying that evil is not really the Churches fault as its Weirdos that done it.

Twice I challenged you on it and instead of clarifying it as requested you seemed dissapointed that I hadnt been abused by priests as a child and then call me sad, vindictive and deceitful?
[/b][/quote]
The premise is you cannot put all the blame on religion when it is made up of individuals and is not tightly controlled. The works of Mother Theresa doesn't make all of Christendom fantastic, just as the acts of the 4% of priests you mentioned doesn't make all of Christendom evil. One of the bigger principles of Christianity is Free Will, unless you're a Calvanist (and you can go **** off...just a joke). Should the Catholic church look at the environment that was created to cause such harm? Yes. Is it the fault of Christianity? No. Should the church look into the good works of Mother Theresa and try to implement programmes like she started? Yes, but they also can't take the credit for her works either, she took a big leap of faith to do what she did, and did it with little support.
The point is, you are looking for a massive scapegoat, when there really isn't one. People do f___ed up stuff. Some of these people are religious, some aren't. Religion, like that of Christianity, is a set of guidlines on how to live your life. There a lot of people that fall off that horse. Some get back on, some don't. People that have committed terrible acts have done it on their own choice, not on direct orders of anyone. It's fair play to say that Christianity has been used as a tool of evil. It's not on, though, to say that Christianity is evil. Your anger is misplaced, and misdirected.

 

[stormer2010]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 9 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those who are pretending that christianity is evil are really deluded.[/b]

First of all you said the above which is seriously funny stuff. Quite ironic too. I asked you to expand on it cause its either an ignorant or lazy thing to say given what has already been written in this thread.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 8 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The basic modern principles of it are extremely good for a lot of people. On the flip side, it does also tend to be abused by some weirdos.[/b]

You are saying that evil is not really the Churches fault as its Weirdos that done it.

Twice I challenged you on it and instead of clarifying it as requested you seemed dissapointed that I hadnt been abused by priests as a child and then call me sad, vindictive and deceitful?
[/b][/quote]

I think you misunderstand the man; he is saying that for many people their faith is valuable and that the essentials of Christianity are a good set of rules to live by and that the inevitable misuse/ignorance and 'dodgy' people claiming to be faithful does not make the religion 'evil' in and of itself. Unless you are arguing that religion as a whole does more bad than good, you are essentially argung that anyone saying for instance; "Ireland, what a kak country full of evil people" are justified in their opinion based on the actions of a few Irishmen such as BODs filthy and thuggish head butt on poor innocent Danie Rossouw for instance.

Judging the whole based on the actions of a part comes across as infantile. Worse, condemning the ideals of others who, all to humanely, don't live up to them because it does not sit well with you is very arrogant.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 9 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

he is saying that for many people their faith is valuable and that the essentials of Christianity are a good set of rules to live by and that the inevitable misuse/ignorance and 'dodgy' people claiming to be faithful does not make the religion 'evil' in and of itself.[/b]

He said those that believe the Church to be evil are delusional. He also credited the bad bits to weirdos as opposed to the Church itself. I asked him to clarify it. He said he couldnt be arsed. I told him to read the thread. He called me names and asked if I was dissapointed that I hadnt been abused myself. I think I understood him perfectly well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 9 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Judging the whole based on the actions of a part comes across as infantile.[/b]

Iversen was correct on that point until he used the word weirdos. It was disassociating the actions of significantly more than a few from the body of the church, when the church as a body became heavily involved in the cover up. 4%! Across the whole of the US! It didnt take into account what they were doing in Ireland at the time (which was worse), it doesnt take into account the cases that werent reported (historically, as proven in Ireland that number is surprisingly large), and it doesnt take into account the members of the church who were involved in the cover up.

This was not the act of a few. This was a massive abuse of power.

Add to that other social values that the church offers us and ..... well Charles said it best really.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Nov 7 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think he is talking about values that you can find in religious societies like death penalty, condemnation of homosexuality, condemnation of birth control, social apartheid, condemnation of atheism and liberty of thought, corporal punishments, inept dietary laws, sex control, institutionalized gender discrimination, polygamy...

Face it; if you live in a democracy it is actually INSPITE of your so-called "Religious Values". I don't need to be force-fed unrealistic children stories and twisted logic and "values" to know right from wrong. I got my personal judgment for that. Neither need I sex rules from a guy who doesn't even know what it is to have sex. And don't get me started on the stupidity of not living together with a person BEFORE getting married...

But hey, everybody knows that Communists eat babies and practice incest on a daily basis... [/b]

People talk about stuff like that and its either ignored or everyone else shuts up and moves on to another point In otherwords, less look at the highlights and leave all the bad stuff on the edit room floor. Then people talk about tolerance (in a belief of the supernatural), and calling god or religion evil. Most anti-religious folks dont believe in god, they believe religions to be man made and so are pointing to the evil in man, which no one denies.

Who is to say that it was religion that has driven human behaviour and not human behaviour that has driven religion? Its a massive assumption to assume society wouldnt be fine (or possibly be in a much better, less violent place) without the general goodness of God, Allah, Thor, Poseidon etc.

 

[O'Rothlain]

Your signature quote sums up your view, I assume:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

That's just plain bias. It's putting blame on religion and not the man. I get that there are bitter people out there that feel "duped" or "mislead" or people that have been actually harmed by things within religious circles. I've yet to deny that bad things have happend in the name of God and religion. However, if one examines religion, especially Christianity (because it seems to be the one really being questioned and defended), you aren't going to see a set of socially irresponsible, or harmful practices. "Love thy neighbor." Stories about the good Samaratain, and Jesus at the well illustrate a lifestyle of being good to others and showing compassion, love and acceptance to those whose lifestyles and or cultures are different to your own. People will always abuse power and use religion to promote their personal agendas. I can't help that. None of the religious people on this forum can help that.
Mankind will always be suspetable to wanting what others have and finding out ways to get it. It's religion that teaches us how to overcome these "tempations."

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 10 2009, 06:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 9 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

he is saying that for many people their faith is valuable and that the essentials of Christianity are a good set of rules to live by and that the inevitable misuse/ignorance and 'dodgy' people claiming to be faithful does not make the religion 'evil' in and of itself.[/b]

He said those that believe the Church to be evil are delusional. He also credited the bad bits to weirdos as opposed to the Church itself. I asked him to clarify it. He said he couldnt be arsed. I told him to read the thread. He called me names and asked if I was dissapointed that I hadnt been abused myself. I think I understood him perfectly well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 9 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Judging the whole based on the actions of a part comes across as infantile.[/b]

Iversen was correct on that point until he used the word weirdos. It was disassociating the actions of significantly more than a few from the body of the church, when the church as a body became heavily involved in the cover up. 4%! Across the whole of the US! It didnt take into account what they were doing in Ireland at the time (which was worse), it doesnt take into account the cases that werent reported (historically, as proven in Ireland that number is surprisingly large), and it doesnt take into account the members of the church who were involved in the cover up.

This was not the act of a few. This was a massive abuse of power.

Add to that other social values that the church offers us and ..... well Charles said it best really.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Nov 7 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think he is talking about values that you can find in religious societies like death penalty, condemnation of homosexuality, condemnation of birth control, social apartheid, condemnation of atheism and liberty of thought, corporal punishments, inept dietary laws, sex control, institutionalized gender discrimination, polygamy...

Face it; if you live in a democracy it is actually INSPITE of your so-called "Religious Values". I don't need to be force-fed unrealistic children stories and twisted logic and "values" to know right from wrong. I got my personal judgment for that. Neither need I sex rules from a guy who doesn't even know what it is to have sex. And don't get me started on the stupidity of not living together with a person BEFORE getting married...

But hey, everybody knows that Communists eat babies and practice incest on a daily basis... [/b]

People talk about stuff like that and its either ignored or everyone else shuts up and moves on to another point In otherwords, less look at the highlights and leave all the bad stuff on the edit room floor. Then people talk about tolerance (in a belief of the supernatural), and calling god or religion evil. Most anti-religious folks dont believe in god, they believe religions to be man made and so are pointing to the evil in man, which no one denies.

Who is to say that it was religion that has driven human behaviour and not human behaviour that has driven religion? Its a massive assumption to assume society wouldnt be fine (or possibly be in a much better, less violent place) without the general goodness of God, Allah, Thor, Poseidon etc.
[/b][/quote]

Don't tell me what I said. I insulted you, because you insulted me heavily first! Heavily, by misquoting me. You have done it again!

"He said those that believe the Church to be evil are delusional". I never said that. I said that those that believe religion to be evil are delusional. Different religious concepts can be evil, maybe Satanism for example, but one cannot claim that all of the ideals of religion are evil. There are tremendous elements of goodness there.

I'm sick of being misquoted by you. I'm sick of having my words, which were merely a reminder that there is good and bad in religion and originally an attempt to say "hey your both a bit right" and try and be peaceful, perverted by you.

This is supposed to be an intellectual and theological discussion, not a scornful, and hateful thing. Which is what you are turning it into. I brought up the priest thing as a gag, not a serious comment. I don't condone priests doing anything to children, but I was merely making a bad joke at your expense, because I'm sick and tired of trying to take a PC, polite higher ground on this forum due to being an admin and having nasty, hate-filled things said back to me in return. I just wanted to be able to verbally shoot back at someone who was already twisting my words anyway.

Nonetheless I'm not having anyone tell other people what I said in a untruthful, slightly twisted way. Thats definitely nasty and I'll say here and now that I'll do what I can to get rid of you if you can't respect others views. I won't respect yours, because your intent on coming into a thread and calling a friend of mine's (O'Rothlain) belief system evil. He doesn't believe in evil mate, but thats again how nasty you are.

If you can't say anything decent without enraging people in this thread, get out of it, or I'll make sure your out of it. You have no right to treat people like this and I'm not going to tolerate this anymore and will seek the action necessary to ban you if you persist in having a hateful discussion about peoples beliefs who are NOT evil people or believe in evil concepts.