The "Religion" thread

[BLR]

Christianity went wrong as soon as the Romans took over it, books were censored or thrown out if it did not suit the messages the emperor was trying to convene. Christianity is rooted in pagan traditions which were brought in the ease the transitions of these Romans into the church yet these are the things which are still being promoted as Christianity. The human aspect of Christianity has already made it a lost cause. This is about the word of God after all, yet it seems the grubby fingers of human intervention is all over the religion as it stands. How can you claim to be a divine belief when as a religion the refusal to go back to the roots and continue with these political changes that dirty the religion continues on.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BLR @ Nov 3 2009, 06:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

O'Roth, a question. Creationism is, as you said, the belief in a supernatural creator. Is it not possible this creator was the catalyst and all that came after was in line with Evolution, eg. various mutations to animals, particles etc. etc. to survive in their environment?

This is what I believe anyway, I find the theory of the big bang glosses over the original catalyst, of which surely must exist for the event to even occur. Hence where the creator comes in, although our minds probably can't comprehend what it actually was, all other attempts are simply following in line with the human made religious falsities such has been made in most of todays religions to suit their own makers political and social needs. (Don't make me go into examples of the beginning of the Roman and Islamic religions)[/b]

I can't argue with that idea. I don't subscribe to it, but I have friends who do. I, in many ways, am a bit of a traditionalist. I personally belive that things started out very orderly. I don't believe in Chaos becoming Order, for we find in this natural world that Order degrades to Chaos. I think it's a one way street as stated in the Second Law of Thermodynamics. I have no problems with ideas of evolution, as in survival of the fitest where we do see mutations of speicies. However, I don't think we've ever really encountered anything drastic enough to show the sort of evolution that a Chaos or big bang theory would suggest, even if God or a supernatural being were the catalyst.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BLR @ Nov 3 2009, 11:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Christianity went wrong as soon as the Romans took over it, books were censored or thrown out if it did not suit the messages the emperor was trying to convene. Christianity is rooted in pagan traditions which were brought in the ease the transitions of these Romans into the church yet these are the things which are still being promoted as Christianity. The human aspect of Christianity has already made it a lost cause. This is about the word of God after all, yet it seems the grubby fingers of human intervention is all over the religion as it stands. How can you claim to be a divine belief when as a religion the refusal to go back to the roots and continue with these political changes that dirty the religion continues on.[/b]

Religion, any religion, is supposed to be about a spiritual journey, and expression of faith, a devotion to principles and ethics. Christians are very guilty of letting their faith be more of a statement of culture or tradition than an actual quest for spiritual knowledge.
So, fair enough, with your point. It is up to the "believer" to go on this journey. As St. Paul said to "run the race". Laugh all you guys want but there is a mystic and supernatural side of our faith which we can't argue logically about. Miracles and conversations with God do make us sound, as someone recently on this forum put it towards jacovw, crazy. All I can say is my personal experience will keep me faithful, regardless of ridicule, speculation, or criticism.
It is the spiritual journey and discipline that Christ encouraged. Many claim to believe in Christ, yet never "take his yoke" or go on this quest.

 

[jacovw]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 3 2009, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BLR @ Nov 3 2009, 11:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Christianity went wrong as soon as the Romans took over it, books were censored or thrown out if it did not suit the messages the emperor was trying to convene. Christianity is rooted in pagan traditions which were brought in the ease the transitions of these Romans into the church yet these are the things which are still being promoted as Christianity. The human aspect of Christianity has already made it a lost cause. This is about the word of God after all, yet it seems the grubby fingers of human intervention is all over the religion as it stands. How can you claim to be a divine belief when as a religion the refusal to go back to the roots and continue with these political changes that dirty the religion continues on.[/b]

Religion, any religion, is supposed to be about a spiritual journey, and expression of faith, a devotion to principles and ethics. Christians are very guilty of letting their faith be more of a statement of culture or tradition than an actual quest for spiritual knowledge.
So, fair enough, with your point. It is up to the "believer" to go on this journey. As St. Paul said to "run the race". Laugh all you guys want but there is a mystic and supernatural side of our faith which we can't argue logically about. Miracles and conversations with God do make us sound, as someone recently on this forum put it towards jacovw, crazy. All I can say is my personal experience will keep me faithful, regardless of ridicule, speculation, or criticism.
It is the spiritual journey and discipline that Christ encouraged. Many claim to believe in Christ, yet never "take his yoke" or go on this quest.
[/b][/quote]


VERY Nicely done!
Well Said

 

[Juan VdS]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Nov 3 2009, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juan VdS @ Nov 3 2009, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

No being legally bound does not, which is why you get legally, therefor holy in god's eyes, and the last one (hopefully) lovingly bound in marriage.[/b]

So our feelings are not holy in "God's eyes"? If I take my girlfriend and promise her eternal love, without a contract backing this up, I am committing some sort of moral misdemeanor? What about the millions of people that, despite being "legally married"; cheat on each other...?
[/b][/quote]

God commands us to obey the law of the land (except in the instance where it commands other than what he has made clear in the Bible), now if the law of the land says you are married when you confess your undying love, well then so be it but you're missing out on a great party if you just do that and have no reception
Our feelings get us in a lot of trouble sometimes, just ask everyone who find themselves with unloved/unwanted children or spouses because of feelings. Getting married legally is a sign of maturity and responsibility, no back door option. God knew this and that is why he commanded us to do it. Saying you are going to stay with someone forever is pretty useless considering all our track records with the truth (me included)

[/b][/quote]

He commands you? How? He made it clear in the Bible? How? When? Where?

No. Society commands you.

How did people get married centuries ago? With a lawyer around? Don't think so.

Anyway, I suppose I should be thankful to God. Because of his commandment, my Father gets richer every single day in Divorce Litigation (and in 2 years time I'll bo doing exactly the same).

As for people that found themselves with unwanted children, that's not because of feelings -- they were retarded enough to ignore something called anticonceptives.

Oh, and the Church should not judge me. Really. At least I don't live off the people that devote their <strike>money</strike> lives to the Cause. Nor have I given shelter to the worst criminals the world has ever seen. Nor have I systematically murdered millions of innocent people in the last 2000 years.

 

[jacovw]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juan VdS @ Nov 3 2009, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

He commands you? How? He made it clear in the Bible? How? When? Where?

No. Society commands you.[/b]

Go read the new testament for yourself, it's very clear in there! Now you may not believe it to be the word of God, but I do and I try to live according to it, therefore, yes, God commands it, or for your consideration shall i say, the bible commands it?
And please don't say all that stuff about the bible being unreliable and tainted... i will state it again that it is to this day one of the most reliable (near to original) documents/books in the history of mankind. (I don't have to prove this the dead sea scrolls and numerous other texts of the new testament proves it beyond any shadow of a doubt!)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juan VdS @ Nov 3 2009, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

How did people get married centuries ago? With a lawyer around? Don't think so.[/b]

what does that have to do with anything, who mentioned a lawyer? I said law of the land... what applies in your country/time...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juan VdS @ Nov 3 2009, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Anyway, I suppose I should be thankful to God. Because of his commandment, my Father gets richer every single day in Divorce Litigation (and in 2 years time I'll bo doing exactly the same).

As for people that found themselves with unwanted children, that's not because of feelings -- they were retarded enough to ignore something called anticonceptives.[/b]

So divorce is God's fault, but unwanted pregnancy is man's stupidity... seriously does this make any sense to you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juan VdS @ Nov 3 2009, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Oh, and the Church should not judge me. Really. At least I don't live off the people that devote their <strike>money</strike> lives to the Cause. Nor have I given shelter to the worst criminals the world has ever seen. Nor have I systematically murdered millions of innocent people in the last 2000 years.[/b]

This was what I was saying: when did the church judge you? And please give me Examples of where the Biblical Church (I say this because a church that hides the bible from the common man, and burns those who say they are wrong is not a biblical model church) did these atrocities.

 

[Juan VdS]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Go read the new testament for yourself, it's very clear in there! Now you may not believe it to be the word of God, but I do and I try to live according to it, therefore, yes, God commands it, or for your consideration shall i say, the bible commands it?
And please don't say all that stuff about the bible being unreliable and tainted... i will state it again that it is to this day one of the most reliable (near to original) documents/books in the history of mankind. (I don't have to prove this the dead sea scrolls and numerous other texts of the new testament proves it beyond any shadow of a doubt!)[/b]

I've read it already. A hundred times, actually. I've read every single major religious book out there. God is not the Bible, so yeah, the Bible commands you.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

what does that have to do with anything, who mentioned a lawyer? I said law of the land... what applies in your country/time...[/b]

No, you said that unless a legal contract is used, marriage does not exist.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

So divorce is God's fault, but unwanted pregnancy is man's stupidity... seriously does this make any sense to you?[/b]

Actually it does. Getting married just to look legal to the society is as stupid as unwanted pregnancy. You may be that religious yourself, but the vast majority of people see marriage as a "barrier" that is there show how mature they are.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

This was what I was saying: when did the church judge you? And please give me Examples of where the Biblical Church (I say this because a church that hides the bible from the common man, and burns those who say they are wrong is not a biblical model church) did these atrocities.[/b]

The Netherlands? South America? Philippines? Mexico? Spain? Do any of these sound remotely familiar to you? Now... seeing how "The Church" talks about "the fight against poverty" and toys with billions of dollars every year... while millions around the world suffer of the direst needs ever imagined... isn't that an atrocity?

Again, I don't need to prove a point. Not at all. In this thread I've seen some religious people that I respect a lot. Can't say the same about everybody though. And given the character of this discussion -- which is endless -- I'll resort to just move on.

"When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow." - Anais Nin

 

[jacovw]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

No, you said that unless a legal contract is used, marriage does not exist.[/b]

If you can quote me on that i'll retract everything i said... I specifically said law of the land, ie the legally accepted way in said person's state, and said person's time! this will not always require a "contract", although i am for that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Actually it does. Getting married just to look legal to the society is as stupid as unwanted pregnancy. You may be that religious yourself, but the vast majority of people see marriage as a "barrier" that is there show how mature they are.[/b]

You're right about the first thing here, but i beg you to consider that maybe just maybe our reasons for getting married is a little different than what you may think they are! As for the second part that's fantasy my friend! "Large number" sure, but "Vast Majority", seriously that's slightly overstated. Marriage is highly regarded and revered in most of Asia and Africa which already puts any different thinking from the west of the map!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

The Netherlands? South America? Philippines? Mexico? Spain? Do any of these sound remotely familiar to you? Now... seeing how "The Church" talks about "the fight against poverty" and toys with billions of dollars every year... while millions around the world suffer of the direst needs ever imagined... isn't that an atrocity?[/b]

Please elaborate (unless you honestly want to drop it, i won't mind) I'm not sure what you are blaming us for.

As a Christian I take full responsibility as far as the money issues go, that has been a big mistake on the part of mega-churches... all of which preach a great gospel but have fallen a little short in the love department, These churches are addressed in Revelation and are accepted as one of the seven churches, yet warned that they must get with the program or else. If the bible recognizes them so do I. But if you read a few posts back you will see that there are churches trying to make a difference. The church I came from spend around 45% of all their income on the community surrounding us... and another 15% on mission trips... that's 60% of the annual income spent outside the church, where it is needed! These figures were audited by an independent accountant and the books were open for inspection by any member of the church. Many churches run a similar model... so there is hope in that area!

But once again I state that the Christian Church can not be held responsible for atrocities committed in their name by murderers and thieves, Christ himself said that murderers and thieves (people who mindlessly and continuously do these things without repenting) will have no part in his kingdom. That eliminates every person that has murdered for personal gain under the "Christian banner".

That's like saying all Atheists are murderers, because of Christians being executed (because of what they believe) in Russia, China, Vietnam North Korea etc. etc.

 

[Sir Speedy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Nov 3 2009, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juan VdS @ Nov 3 2009, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He commands you? How? He made it clear in the Bible? How? When? Where?

No. Society commands you.[/b]

Go read the new testament for yourself, it's very clear in there! [/b][/quote]

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Nov 4 2009, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

That's like saying all Atheists are murderers, because of Christians being executed (because of what they believe) in Russia, China, Vietnam North Korea etc. etc.[/b]

There's an interesting argument that state communism is a cult with a religious style system of belief. Same for national socialism. But without the Love bit, obviously!

 

[Juan VdS]

Well that's true to a certain extent shtove. National Socialism (the real National Socialism, not that Aryan supremacy crap) held Spiritualism in a very high regard. It was some sort of mix between Aryan paganism, Fundamentalism, Christianism... and other doctrines. Take as example the swastika: the symbol that represents peace and prosperity (water, fire, earth and wind). It's sick to see how nowadays this symbol raises everybody's eyebrows. Look at this greeting card (I didn't post the image directly as it may be offensive to some people). :mellow:

That beautiful conception of nature mutated into a murdering spree in behalf of "the Aryan Race" -- and was led by somebody who, ironically enough, was not an Aryan himself.

Sir Speedy: I'll keep that picture in mind.

 

[jacovw]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Nov 3 2009, 09:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Nov 3 2009, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juan VdS @ Nov 3 2009, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He commands you? How? He made it clear in the Bible? How? When? Where?

No. Society commands you.[/b]

Go read the new testament for yourself, it's very clear in there! [/b][/quote]

[/b][/quote]

Funny picture. Circular reasoning has been applied to a few other topics with very equal accuracy... and in the middle of that circle should be a big bold FAITH.

 

[shazbooger]

No idea why I'm bothering. Every valid point we raise is ignored because it cant actually be debated. I though Gingers last post summed it all up for me. 11 pages ignored.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BLR @ Nov 3 2009, 06:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

O'Roth, a question. Creationism is, as you said, the belief in a supernatural creator. Is it not possible this creator was the catalyst and all that came after was in line with Evolution, eg. various mutations to animals, particles etc. etc. to survive in their environment?

This is what I believe anyway, I find the theory of the big bang glosses over the original catalyst, of which surely must exist for the event to even occur. Hence where the creator comes in[/b]

Meh, another chicken and egg thoery. What was the catylyst for the Creator (who acted as the catylyst for the universe). Somewhere we have to throw in an unknown. Common sense says throw it in at the earliest place so as opposed to asking what unknown created the unknown that created the universe? Just ask what unknown created the catylyst and acknowledge that we havent a clue. To speculate about a god like figure in there is just stupid, pretending that that god like figure is real is insane.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Nov 3 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

If you can quote me on that i'll retract everything i said... I specifically said law of the land, ie the legally accepted way in said person's state, and said person's time! this will not always require a "contract", although i am for that.[/b]

For a civil partnership to be recognised by the state it has to be set out in a contract (though I'm not sure how things work in the tribes of the amazon etc). Looks like another exercise in pedantics to me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Nov 3 2009, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

There's an interesting argument that state communism is a cult with a religious style system of belief. Same for national socialism.[/b]

Sounds like common sense to me. Religion has shown the way, the rest are just failed imitations but built on the same kind of thinking.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 5 2009, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Nov 3 2009, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's an interesting argument that state communism is a cult with a religious style system of belief. Same for national socialism.[/b]

Sounds like common sense to me. Religion has shown the way, the rest are just failed imitations but built on the same kind of thinking.
[/b][/quote]
Are you saying we have agreement? OMFG! If you'll excuse the phrase.

Should have added this one as well - the third way whereby government, banks, and state employees operate a scam on everyone else. I fear this one hasn't failed. Judging by what central banks and governments have done recently, Mussolini was right.

Apart from the creepy embrace of the state, the only consolation is faith. Sadly, I do not have it.

 

[Prestwick]

As long as you have to believe in a person, a system, a set of values or a higher being then you can call anything from Castros Cuba all the way to the New Zealand All Blacks a cult.

Why do you think the major religions ensured a monopoly in less tolerant times by outlawing idolatry?

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 4 2009, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Why do you think the major religions ensured a monopoly in less tolerant times by outlawing idolatry?[/b]

My god have you read any of what the lunatic fringe posted. GOD TOLD THEM! THATS WHY!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Nov 4 2009, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Are you saying we have agreement? OMFG! If you'll excuse the phrase. [/b]

Well I wouldnt get too excited. If I was being pedantic (as I have been known to be on occasion) I could say I was just agreeing with the person who originally came up with the interesting arguement, not necessarily yourself. In fact it could be said the only reason I quoted you was to ensure that you passed the message back to the original poster of the forementioned interesting arguement.

 

[Jer1cho]

God doesn't provoke violence, people do.

God doesn't cause wars, religious conflicts, suffering, or global crisis. We do.

Religion is only as valid as it's followers, which is why i choose not to fall under any of them. I prefer to have my own views on the creator of the Universe. Screw the Bible, screw religion, and screw people.

It's up to you as an individual to build a relationship with God, regardless of what anyone, or anything says.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 5 2009, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

God doesn't provoke violence, people do.[/b]

God doesnt because God doesnt exist, but religion does.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 5 2009, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

God doesn't cause wars, religious conflicts, suffering, or global crisis. We do.[/b]

God doesnt because God doesnt exist, but religion does.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 5 2009, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

It's up to you as an individual to build a relationship with God, regardless of what anyone, or anything says.[/b]

So your just making up your own religion then, or are you just another prophet? Should we expect a book release soon?

 

[Jer1cho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 5 2009, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 5 2009, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God doesn't provoke violence, people do.[/b]

God doesnt because God doesnt exist, but religion does.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 5 2009, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

God doesn't cause wars, religious conflicts, suffering, or global crisis. We do.[/b]

God doesnt because God doesnt exist, but religion does.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 5 2009, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

It's up to you as an individual to build a relationship with God, regardless of what anyone, or anything says.[/b]

So your just making up your own religion then, or are you just another prophet? Should we expect a book release soon?
[/b][/quote]

All i'm saying, is that i don't need a book, or people, or a set of rules to tell me what to believe. The only honest answer i can give, is that i don't know. Nobody has the knowledge, proof, or understanding to say that 'God exists or doesn't exist' as a fact.

It's all based on a decision that you yourself have made, thanks to whatever influence you had in your life. I don't believe in the God christianity describes, but at the same time, i don't believe that saying there is not a God, is a fact.

Sometimes i look at the stars, and wonder what the hell? We are on this planet. Randomly, with all sorts of intelligence, all sorts of inventions, all sorts of luxuries. Then, we die. What the hell for? Why do we know what we know, and why does it feel like we are not just here for the sake of 'living'?

Some things we just can't understand.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 5 2009, 04:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

My god have you read any of what the lunatic fringe posted. GOD TOLD THEM! THATS WHY![/b]

I didn't think you had a God. ...and "lunatic fringe", really? So believing in God now makes us Lunatics?