The "Religion" thread

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 6 2009, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Sometimes i look at the stars, and wonder what the hell? We are on this planet. Randomly, with all sorts of intelligence, all sorts of inventions, all sorts of luxuries. Then, we die. What the hell for? Why do we know what we know, and why does it feel like we are not just here for the sake of 'living'?[/b]

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[Steve-o]

That's just human emotion and imagination. There's no romantic ending to the story. Just like people that lived 3000 years ago, you will die, turn into worm food, and eventually be forgotten. Unless you're Hitler or Yoko Ono.

 

[Juan VdS]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Nov 5 2009, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

That's just human emotion and imagination. There's no romantic ending to the story. Just like people that lived 3000 years ago, you will die, turn into worm food, and eventually be forgotten. Unless you're Hitler or Yoko Ono.[/b]

...or Matt Dunning. :mellow:

Joking aside, I agree with Jer1cho's feelings. That is the most beautiful thing in life, is it not? The fact that we will eventually die someday makes everything more enjoyable and marvellous. Life is like an endless reverence to the mortality of all things surrounding us.

 

[O'Rothlain]

...I've personally decided I want a Viking Funeral. Maybe I'll reach Valhalla that way.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juan VdS @ Nov 5 2009, 09:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Nov 5 2009, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just human emotion and imagination. There's no romantic ending to the story. Just like people that lived 3000 years ago, you will die, turn into worm food, and eventually be forgotten. Unless you're Hitler or Yoko Ono.[/b]

...or Matt Dunning. mellow.gif

Joking aside, I agree with Jer1cho's feelings. That is the most beautiful thing in life, is it not? The fact that we will eventually die someday makes everything more enjoyable and marvellous. Life is like an endless reverence to the mortality of all things surrounding us.
[/b][/quote]

Yeah it does, it makes you appreciated the now, and live in the now (within reason!), and you can face the future with little or no stress because of it.
That was just my "bare knuckle" realist approach. It might seem negative but I guess it's how you take the news.

That realization, of my pending death and that I'm in control about how I can feel about, really changed my outlook on life.
Worrying about what the future holds and what happened in the past is fruitless and frustrating. If you do what you need & want to do in the present the future tends to take care of itself and what happened in the past doesn't really matter. You also get this weird sense of connection with what's going on around you, because you not always looking for the 'next' or feeling insecure about the past. The only thing that really in your control of is how you react to the present.

People need to stop worry about why we here or where we come from. Nobody has solved those questions and they will probably never be answered. Take that burden off your mind, it's an energy draining question that gives you a sense of helplessness.
But that's just me, I rate I'd make a good hippy!

It's easier said than done though! It's hard to keep a balance that is healthy and beneficial.





BTW that vid was top notch shtove :lol:

 

[BLR]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 4 2009, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BLR @ Nov 3 2009, 06:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

O'Roth, a question. Creationism is, as you said, the belief in a supernatural creator. Is it not possible this creator was the catalyst and all that came after was in line with Evolution, eg. various mutations to animals, particles etc. etc. to survive in their environment?

This is what I believe anyway, I find the theory of the big bang glosses over the original catalyst, of which surely must exist for the event to even occur. Hence where the creator comes in[/b]

Meh, another chicken and egg thoery. What was the catylyst for the Creator (who acted as the catylyst for the universe). Somewhere we have to throw in an unknown. Common sense says throw it in at the earliest place so as opposed to asking what unknown created the unknown that created the universe? Just ask what unknown created the catylyst and acknowledge that we havent a clue. To speculate about a god like figure in there is just stupid, pretending that that god like figure is real is insane.[/b][/quote]
Nah, absolutely, I believe there is some unknown catalyst that we will ever be able to comprehend and pretty much cant be explained by science. Which I suppose is kind of just an extension of what science tries to put across, I dunno, it's a null point, it hurts my head.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 6 2009, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Sometimes i look at the stars, and wonder what the hell? We are on this planet. Randomly, with all sorts of intelligence, all sorts of inventions, all sorts of luxuries. Then, we die. What the hell for? Why do we know what we know, and why does it feel like we are not just here for the sake of 'living'?[/b]

I often feel like religion is created because people cannot answer the 'meaning of life'.

Obviously, if you say that your purpose is to do the work of 'god' then you have a meaning already. All religions I've heard of contain some sort of process for reward/ punishment after death. Therefore, the religion gives your life meaning: it is a test that you must pass in order to reap the benefits in the future.

However, after the enlightment, Nietzsche said 'God is dead'. If there is no (longer) a 'god', then what can be the meaning of life? From this, Camus and the existentialists decided that there is no meaning. Read L'Etranger: "Il m'a dit que c'était impossible, que tous les hommes croyaient en Dieu, même ceux qui se détournaient de son visage. C'était là sa conviction et, s'il devait jamais en douter, sa vie n'aurait plus de sens".

But life with no meaning is nihilistic. Along those lines, you might as well kill yourself straightaway for all the good it will do. The existantialists said that in the absence of true meaning, the individual must create a meaning for himself.

So, put this to my own view: I do not believe in any supernatural beings. Therefore, there is no meaning to my life. However, I enjoy many things about being 'alive'. The pleasure you get from the entire plethora of 'things' in the world, from emotional relationships with people to enjoying a bag of crisps. So, the years I spend alive are there for me to carve my own meaning and direction, and do what I want to do with my own life (not in the selfish way). This is why politics is so important; so we can maximise the oppurtunity for every human to make the most of their lifetime and fullfill their own meanings to life.

 

[melon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 6 2009, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I didn't think you had a God. ...and "lunatic fringe", really? So believing in God now makes us Lunatics?[/b]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

That is all.

 

[St Helens RLFC]

There's too much intolerance in this thread.

 

[BLR]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 6 2009, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Read L'Etranger: "Il m'a dit que c'était impossible, que tous les hommes croyaient en Dieu, même ceux qui se détournaient de son visage. C'était là sa conviction et, s'il devait jamais en douter, sa vie n'aurait plus de sens".[/b]

.....seriously?

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (St Helens RLFC @ Nov 6 2009, 04:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

There's too much intolerance in this thread.[/b]

I agree with St Helens RLFC.
Some of you have gone all Maximilien François Marie Isidore de Robespierre. The very thing you have criticizied is now what you are doing:Intolerance.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 6 2009, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

So, put this to my own view: I do not believe in any supernatural beings. Therefore, there is no meaning to my life. However, I enjoy many things about being 'alive'. The pleasure you get from the entire plethora of 'things' in the world, from emotional relationships with people to enjoying a bag of crisps. So, the years I spend alive are there for me to carve my own meaning and direction, and do what I want to do with my own life (not in the selfish way). This is why politics is so important; so we can maximise the oppurtunity for every human to make the most of their lifetime and fullfill their own meanings to life.[/b]

Oh dear, you've gone all NuLab. By maximising opportunity, you probably mean steal from those who do and give to those who could do if only they weren't so bleedin' useless. One legged lesbians and bankers.

I'd like to know your theory of justice, because I find it hard to see any of the stuff in the egalitarian world. The only people succeeding are banksters, housing gamblers, and state leeches.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Nov 6 2009, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 6 2009, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, put this to my own view: I do not believe in any supernatural beings. Therefore, there is no meaning to my life. However, I enjoy many things about being 'alive'. The pleasure you get from the entire plethora of 'things' in the world, from emotional relationships with people to enjoying a bag of crisps. So, the years I spend alive are there for me to carve my own meaning and direction, and do what I want to do with my own life (not in the selfish way). This is why politics is so important; so we can maximise the oppurtunity for every human to make the most of their lifetime and fullfill their own meanings to life.[/b]

Oh dear, you've gone all NuLab. By maximising opportunity, you probably mean steal from those who do and give to those who could do if only they weren't so bleedin' useless. One legged lesbians and bankers.

I'd like to know your theory of justice, because I find it hard to see any of the stuff in the egalitarian world. The only people succeeding are banksters, housing gamblers, and state leeches.
[/b][/quote]

Because it is not so egalitarian, the taxation system is heavily distorted and the infrastructure of the country gears lots of money into certain professions and very little into others, regardless of their moral importance.

I know it's a cliche, but what has a banker done that's so great that he earns money that is more than enough for him to not only survive, not even be comfortable, but enough for him to live in luxury??? Compare that to a nurse working long hours in an incredibly tough job, provinding lots of training and earning not very much at all. This is an especially poignent comparison when you consider who is delivering more to society.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 6 2009, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Nov 6 2009, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 6 2009, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, put this to my own view: I do not believe in any supernatural beings. Therefore, there is no meaning to my life. However, I enjoy many things about being 'alive'. The pleasure you get from the entire plethora of 'things' in the world, from emotional relationships with people to enjoying a bag of crisps. So, the years I spend alive are there for me to carve my own meaning and direction, and do what I want to do with my own life (not in the selfish way). This is why politics is so important; so we can maximise the oppurtunity for every human to make the most of their lifetime and fullfill their own meanings to life.[/b]

Oh dear, you've gone all NuLab. By maximising opportunity, you probably mean steal from those who do and give to those who could do if only they weren't so bleedin' useless. One legged lesbians and bankers.

I'd like to know your theory of justice, because I find it hard to see any of the stuff in the egalitarian world. The only people succeeding are banksters, housing gamblers, and state leeches.
[/b][/quote]

Because it is not so egalitarian, the taxation system is heavily distorted and the infrastructure of the country gears lots of money into certain professions and very little into others, regardless of their moral importance.

I know it's a cliche, but what has a banker done that's so great that he earns money that is more than enough for him to not only survive, not even be comfortable, but enough for him to live in luxury??? Compare that to a nurse working long hours in an incredibly tough job, provinding lots of training and earning not very much at all. This is an especially poignent comparison when you consider who is delivering more to society.
[/b][/quote]
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is worth. It's the percieved worth of a bankers time, versus the percieved worth of the nurses time. God forbid we lose money, we're more scared about that, than our life itself sometimes. It's a true comment on social values. Speaking of which we can now steer this back towards the topic of religion. Without religion, where does a society get it's social values? My last post referenced the French Revolution. Those guys did away with religion and realized they had to come up with something very similar to export the revolutionary values to the masses. In your no-religion society, where do the values come from? The ones you have now are much thanks to the Judeo-Christian World View, and don't deny that.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 7 2009, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Without religion, where does a society get it's social values? My last post referenced the French Revolution. Those guys did away with religion and realized they had to come up with something very similar to export the revolutionary values to the masses. In your no-religion society, where do the values come from? The ones you have now are much thanks to the Judeo-Christian World View, and don't deny that.[/b]

What the hell are you talking about? That's an extremely arrogant statement. Give examples of "social values" please.

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Nov 7 2009, 11:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 7 2009, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Without religion, where does a society get it's social values? My last post referenced the French Revolution. Those guys did away with religion and realized they had to come up with something very similar to export the revolutionary values to the masses. In your no-religion society, where do the values come from? The ones you have now are much thanks to the Judeo-Christian World View, and don't deny that.[/b]

What the hell are you talking about? That's an extremely arrogant statement. Give examples of "social values" please.
[/b][/quote]

I think he is talking about values that you can find in religious societies like death penalty, condemnation of homosexuality, condemnation of birth control, social apartheid, condemnation of atheism and liberty of thought, corporal punishments, inept dietary laws, sex control, institutionalized gender discrimination, polygamy...

Face it; if you live in a democracy it is actually INSPITE of your so-called "Religious Values". I don't need to be force-fed unrealistic children stories and twisted logic and "values" to know right from wrong. I got my personal judgment for that. Neither need I sex rules from a guy who doesn't even know what it is to have sex. And don't get me started on the stupidity of not living together with a person BEFORE getting married...

But hey, everybody knows that Communists eat babies and practice incest on a daily basis...

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Nov 7 2009, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

What the hell are you talking about? That's an extremely arrogant statement. Give examples of "social values" please.[/b]

When did fact become arrogance? Was in not the philosophs who based their ideals for most modern, western governments on the idea of man created in the image of God, born with inaliable rights? It was both the motivation of the disposal of the monarchies and the foundation of the framework of the American government, which in turn has been used as a template for other western psuedo-democracies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not waving the US Flag here, I'm simply talking about the framework of bills of rights, etc... These are based on enlightened thought after a deep study of scripture and classical (ancient greek) writings. John Locke, Voltaire, Montesquieu, Rousseau, etc while not necesarrily religious people were Theists. Like you, they did not like organized religion, yet they did acknowledge the basis of the values that framed their thoughts. I'm not asking anyone on this forum to become religious. I'm simply defending my faith, and the faith of others.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Nov 7 2009, 04:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think he is talking about values that you can find in religious societies like death penalty, condemnation of homosexuality, condemnation of birth control, social apartheid, condemnation of atheism and liberty of thought, corporal punishments, inept dietary laws, sex control, institutionalized gender discrimination, polygamy...

Face it; if you live in a democracy it is actually INSPITE of your so-called "Religious Values". I don't need to be force-fed unrealistic children stories and twisted logic and "values" to know right from wrong. I got my personal judgment for that. Neither need I sex rules from a guy who doesn't even know what it is to have sex. And don't get me started on the stupidity of not living together with a person BEFORE getting married...

But hey, everybody knows that Communists eat babies and practice incest on a daily basis... [/b]

Your views are flawed at best. Do you seriously think that I'm promoting the idea of apartheid as a positive light of religious thought?
I'm talking about things like our views on stealing, lying, cheating, murder, adultry, etc... those are the social values I'm referring to.

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 7 2009, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Your views are flawed at best. Do you seriously think that I'm promoting the idea of apartheid as a positive light of religious thought?
I'm talking about things like our views on stealing, lying, cheating, murder, adultry, etc... those are the social values I'm referring to.[/b]

Do you think I need to believe in a supernatural entity contradicting common sense and laws of physics to comprehend that lying, cheating and murdering is bad ? No thank you
And I stand my ground on all the things I said. Wether it be chrisitian dictatorships (Chili, Spain) or muslim ones (Iran, Saudi Arabia), these are the most retarded and backwards countries in the world. Religion is advocating condemnation of homosexuality, condemnation of birth control, condemnation of atheism and liberty of thought, corporal punishments, inept dietary laws, sex control, institutionalized gender discrimination, etc... Religion has its own agenda on society and keeps trying to impose in on the people. See all the muslim countries, and all the catholic countries (Spain, Italy, South America, Philippines etc...)

Where is democracy, freedom of thought, birth control, and all the values that make a REAL advanced and democratic society ?

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Nov 8 2009, 04:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Where is democracy, freedom of thought, birth control, and all the values that make a REAL advanced and democratic society ?[/b]

America. Because they are serious about the most important freedom - freedom of choice. Happily, many Americans choose religion and family values. Not so hot about that in France, are you?

Sadly, Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush sold the country to the bankers. And Obama is just a debt collector for Goldman Sachs. Fcukin wankers.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Nov 7 2009, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Nov 7 2009, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What the hell are you talking about? That's an extremely arrogant statement. Give examples of "social values" please.[/b]

When did fact become arrogance? Was in not the philosophs who based their ideals for most modern, western governments on the idea of man created in the image of God, born with inaliable rights? It was both the motivation of the disposal of the monarchies and the foundation of the framework of the American government, which in turn has been used as a template for other western psuedo-democracies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not waving the US Flag here, I'm simply talking about the framework of bills of rights, etc... These are based on enlightened thought after a deep study of scripture and classical (ancient greek) writings. John Locke, Voltaire, Montesquieu, Rousseau, etc while not necesarrily religious people were Theists. Like you, they did not like organized religion, yet they did acknowledge the basis of the values that framed their thoughts. I'm not asking anyone on this forum to become religious. I'm simply defending my faith, and the faith of others.

[/b][/quote]

Unless you were a slay during that time, right? You were allowed to beat him severely, and if he gets up after a day or 2 it's OK.
And what about gay people? And they 'born in gods image' as well? The Bible unwittingly condemns homosexuality in no uncertain terms, lets not pussy foot around that one. So are we gonna choose which humans deserve human rights? Or are people who live by Christian morals gonna cherry pick what they wanna enforce?

You're basically telling me that that humans were/are incapable of displaying human qualities without a god telling us how to feel and act, which is flawed on a very fundamental and basic level. And yes it's extremely arrogant