The Metal Thread

[Big Ewis]

Here's a very dark, deep doomy one:


This is DARK though. Interesting message in the lyrics also.
That first powerchord comes CRUSHING the semblance of well-being you had listening to those odd suspended light melodic lines.

 

[Big Ewis]

hey you know what, this is actually fun:
rats give me 2 or 3 songs to listen to from Immolation that you feel are worthy of winning another man's heart, while still being dudes who punch and burp and fart and watch Rugby, YEAH !
Thought they were okay, then thought nah they're just not good. Gave em a chance again later and definitely picked to just forget about them. So gimme something, I'll be honest.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Immolation took me a while to get into - probably the most unique riffing style I've ever heard.
The closest term I have found to describe it is "writhing"... the sonic equivalent of an agitated snake pit. Dem pinch harmonics.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzAYx3T8Y_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagr5if36sQ

Stick with it - it's worth it.

I don't listen to industrial, and you've probably already heard this, but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagr5if36sQ

 

[Peat]

I am come to the belief that Rats is basically Jimmy Saville reincarnated.

SMN forums?

Tbh, I'm not looking so much for recommendations, as you guys' belief on what records define the genre - what the most influential have been, what the standards are. Most other genres, I can do that, with the exception of power metal and that's for paedos anyway by and large, but death metal is one of the ones where my knowledge is lacking. I don't like it. I like knowing who influenced what.

Either of you heard of Altar of Plagues?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Aha, what? Saville? :huh:

SMN Forums: http://forums.smnnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=77
Check out the "What Are You Listening To?" thread - set filter to fine.

Tbh, I'm not looking so much for recommendations, as you guys' belief on what records define the genre - what the most influential have been, what the standards are. Most other genres, I can do that, with the exception of power metal and that's for paedos anyway by and large, but death metal is one of the ones where my knowledge is lacking. I don't like it. I like knowing who influenced what.

Much simpler question.

The bands/records that really put the genre into overdrive initially:

American
Death - Leprosy
Autopsy - Severed Survival
Morbid Angel - Altars of Madness
Cannibal Corpse - Butchered at Birth (more influential thematically/visually - their musical influence is somewhat overstated I think)
Deicide - Deicide
Suffocation - Effigy Of The Forgotten (the foundation of Brutal DM - this album created the whole sub-genre - probably the most directly influential in that sense)

Swedish
Entombed - Left Hand Path
Dismember - Like An Ever Flowing Stream
Dissection - The Somberlain

Later (but equally important) records:

Cryptopsy - None So Vile
Decapitated - Nihility
Necrophagist - Onset Of Putrefaction
Hate Eternal - Conquering The Throne
Dying Fetus - Destroy The Opposition
Gorguts - Obscura

Which of those have you listened to (properly)?

 

[Peat]

Only The Somberlain and I'd have called that Black Metal tbh (or Melodic Death Metal...)

Probably explains why I'm so behind :lol:

I'm pretty familiar with later Death and early Morbid Angel other than Altars - think I have Effigy downloaded but unlistened to. My attempts to listen to Entombed leave me shrugging.

edit: I'm pretty sure all debates on taste in metal must be accompanied by unnecessary personal slurs. It's like the law. Hence the Saville comment. I'm classy me.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Nah - lots of people also talk about Dissection as a black metal band, but they aren't.
At the end of the day it doesn't really matter - but they definitely aren't a BM or MDM band.
Very melodic, but not MDM (Reinkaos was MDM to be fair).

if you find the production of Effigy a little challenging it might be an idea to listen to to some GP tabs - sounds silly, but it's sometimes necessary in order to get your bearings.
Do you have GP6 or just GP5?

Which Entombed records have you listened to?
For my money "Like An Ever Flowing Stream" is the finest example of Swedish DM.
You should like it - super punky, but brutal and melodic - as well as the music, the production is best in class too (Kurt Ballou has made a career out of copying it).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I guess I should post here I like Green Day and Linkin Park, and if I am in the mood Nickelback.


I'll get my coat.

 

[Peat]

One is curious as to your logic on Dissection. I know what my ears heard and it wasn't Death Metal as I know it.

It's not that the production is an issue, just I never got round to it. I listened on Youtube last night, liked the first two songs, but got a little bored and wandered off to listen to Blue Oyster Cult. I'll probably return for Effigy though. It is decent shizzle.

Entombed... can't remember which songs, but I've yet to make it through a single one of their songs on Youtube without checking how much time is left.

I've got GP6. I'd love to get my hands on a good copy of 4 though, far the best for writing music in though.

Anyway, mo metal

 

[Big Ewis]

rats I appreciate the dirgy/sludgy element on "I feel nothing", and it's pretty good material, it's got a good artistic direction. But overall, I've listened to everything you've posted, and it is as I remembered Immolation. Very average, too average, and often downright mediocre or bad (thinking of past stuff I heard from em). Nothing outstanding, no need to stop and listen. Plenty of better stuff around much worthier than this. They kind of "just play death metal", with nothing sticking out or any noticeable moment really.

Two other overrated bands in death metal: Monstrosity and Malevolent Creation. They both have some fine tunes and have put together solid careers, but their stuff musically, like, if you're not into death metal knees deep, is just not worth the trip. I'd recommend Cannibal, Decap or Morbid to ANYONE, whether they're "doctors" in music or wtvr, no hesitation. The song-writing/composition is easily worth anything that's ever been made. Objectively awesome musical ideas, structure and arrangements. But those former two, "just" death metal so to speak.

Haha Peat, Kataklysm, my gateway band to the death metal world some 11 years ago...'Shadows and Dust' was practically my anthem as a teen. Very accessible stuff, and they mixed melodic and heavy very well.

And now, Pat O'Brien, what a fkng riff machine...



0:47 wuuuuuuuuuuut

 

[ratsapprentice]

One is curious as to your logic on Dissection. I know what my ears heard and it wasn't Death Metal as I know it.

No question - it's death metal. You need to reassess how you define BM and DM. Tremolo picked melodies over blast beats =/= Black Metal.
It's difficult to explain because it's somewhat intangible - I'll give it a go though.
Certainly - I can see why people call them BM - but that's more down to the fact that they used a lot of tremolo picking and they influenced a **** load of BM.
Rhythmically, it's far too complex to be BM - in BM you don't really get more than two or three different beats/riffs in any given song.
That's partly down to the focus on riffs - BM is far more about atmosphere than hooks. Hence the almost complete lack of solos and flashy playing in BM.

Compare the two Dissection tracks in this to the two BM tracks: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13342996/TABS-2.zip


Ewis:
See... the fact that you've said that Immolation basically offer nothing - a suggestion that they are unoriginal/generic - and then you immediately put Malevolent Creation and Monstrosity out as bands worth checking out.
...That's astounding to me - one of the most original (whether you like them or not) bands apparently have less to offer than two of the most middle of the road, by the numbers DM bands out there.
Aside from Millennium, the collective input of original ideas into the DM melting pot from those two band's discographies is practically nil.

 

[Big Ewis]

well all three are in the same bin to me. It's cool that you like Immolation because they offer writhing riffs and what not, but musically there isn't much going on. I'm not interested in shoving my snout in there looking at the difference between all three. For you it's worth while, not for me. These guys are all 3 about ten plateaus below the aforementioned Top 4 for me...and not that it really matters, but "Imperial Doom" was pretty big for the time and is generally regarded as a landmark DM album, but again, I'm not concerned by any of these 3 bands. Some Malevolent stuff can be fkng good stuff, but usually it's just cheap death-thrash with close to nothing going on.

Immolation are authentic and original to you (or objectively, whichever really...), they sound utterly uninteresting to me. Originality alone doesn't make for good music, there are other ingredients that need to be included. I'd rather have some generic but high quality music than original but bland; while of course this goes without saying.

 

[ratsapprentice]

but musically there isn't much going on.

That's what I take issue with - whether you like them or not, there is a lot going on.
If you don't want to put the effort into finding it, for whatever reason, that's fine.

Imperial Doom isn't a landmark record in any way - it's a pretty good Floridian DM record, but it's not really important.
As opposed to Immolation, who played an enormous role in introducing the DM scene to dissonance and drumming variety.

Don't take this as me being an Immo fanboy - because I'm not, I like them a lot but I wouldn't weep if I was somehow barred from ever listening to them again.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ alright, fair enough. I may be wrong about putting them all in the same basket (Malevolent, Monstr and Immo). Btw, "Immo" is short for "Immolation", just case you thought it meant "in my misanthropic opinion" or wtvr...and I'm almost 100% positive that's how you used it yourself. So now that this is out of the way:
I still think the same about them in terms of quality, unless you've got an insane one from em, the equivalent of my showing someone Cannibal's "From Skin to Liquid" to illustrate just how great composers Webster+O'Brien are.
Didn't know they were that important in the history of death metal...I'm not questioning your point, but, I've been "around" in DM for a long time and never really came across that notion. I did have this DVD on the history of death metal, and those guys (with their ultra-thick New Yorkers' accent !) appeared and the bassist/vocalist was explaining how much they loved to play dissonant, evil sounding metal...
For me, way back, Immolation were this ***an of the genre before I knew much. I liked Suffocation, and this was just another 'ation' from NY, about the same era, and they're fairly notorious in the genre and thought I'd be blown away. I gave up long ago though, very disappointed.

What do you think of Incantation ?

A very underrated band was 'Brutality', if you remember them. Typical Floridian style, the heavy thrashy powerchord riffs, the melodic leads with tons of delay, groovy drummed parts....I only know their first record:

 

[ratsapprentice]

I dunno which other songs to suggest, given you weren't really bothered by the ones I picked before!
...Try this:

For me, way back, Immolation were this ***an of the genre before I knew much. I liked Suffocation, and this was just another 'ation' from NY, about the same era, and they're fairly notorious in the genre and thought I'd be blown away. I gave up long ago though, very disappointed.

I was like that for a while - then it clicked.
They are a very awkward band.

Incantation have never really held my attention, tbh - I enjoyed their last album, but I'm yet to be properly amazed by them.

I've never listened to Brutality to my knowledge, I do recognise the cover though.
They sound a little bit like Demolition Hammer - brutal early 90's death-thrash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVV513Up_pA

 

[Big Ewis]

nope...can't say it's interesting to me. I honestly tried !

I fell in love with Incantation years ago because they played straight to the point death metal, pure American style, simple and uncompromising or fancy. Just the grin-provoking classic DM sound, simple and satisfying. Nice and chromatic and wild, but grounded:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YXWMn28xRE

That album also had a very good cover of "Scream Bloody Gore", much better than the original in fact for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_ClXPGmZy4


Demolition Hammer, very unfamiliar with them. Pretty good track there, powerful attitude, solid guitars and drums. Reminds me of Kreator.

 

[Big Ewis]

hey rats....RATS !!!! Yeah, what's the latest band you've found was good ? Any modern DM you feel is worth it ? I'm currently looking for new material after a looooong dormant period of playing the same shiit on rotation every once in a while. I've tried LOADS of new DM bands, all shiitty. Nothin' like the old days....so, what you reckon ?

 

[Peat]

I've got an album by a band called Corrupt Moral Altar. Sludge-grind. Pretty good if that sounds your cup of tea. Angriest stuff I've heard in a long time.

This might appeal. Might not, but still one of the more interesting things I've heard recently, albeit let down by production...

 

[Big Ewis]

PEAT !!!!!! ehm, sorry...ahem, Peat. Coma. Interesting you're mentioning these boys, they were actually on my to-listen-to list for the day just today. This is indeed pretty interesting, and I think there's potential for me to really enjoy this a lot. So +1 for you. Well done, man. This is really good. Americans aren't usually good with this stuff.

I listened to Corrupt Moral Altar though, and indeed it is very angry. But also, not very good I reckon.

 

[Peat]

Problem with Fallujah is there's no dynamics. Everything's loud. It detracts from my enjoyment.

I think I like CMA. I hope so, I'm going to be listening to them a lot...