The Last Aussie Game

[McTallshort]

We dont have 2 million plus rugby players. That would make the sport more popular than fishing or Golf which it isnt.

 

[mosfeldt]

Excellent game.

Very happy that Australia won and I usually don't rate them. IMHO, this SH test season has shown that SH test rugby is the best annual rugby product in the world. It is better than the 6 nations and better than the English Premiership.

How on Earth do you come to this conclusion? I watched the RC last year (as I try to most years) and it was absolutely dire. I tried using it as a gateway to introduce one of my friends to rugby and he hasn't watched a single game of rugby since. How does Australia beating a 2nd-string NZ team in a dead rubber somehow objectively qualify that SH is the "best annual rugby product"? Don't get me wrong I loved the match, I'm delighted that Australia won and I'm not undermining their achievements. 2nd-string AB is still extreme quality. I'm delighted that Ireland beat NZ, even if there was nothing on the line and NZ were missing key players.

But I'm really struggling to see how this match and this year's RC is a shining example of why SH rugby is better. NZ vs Aus rd 2 and 3, they were good matches. SA vs Aus rd 2, good match. SA vs NZ rd 2, good match. The rest were either ok or just pretty crap. So 4/13 matches were genuinely good. Or does Argentina, SA and Australia getting hammered constitute as top quality rugby for you? This isn't even including the domestic competitions, of which I'm firmly in the opinion that the European cup >>>>>>>>>>>> Super Rugby. Not even close IMO. Sorry but apart from the semis and the finals SR just looks and feels dead to me. Not to mention most of the matches have been sub-par quality the past few years.

This is, of course, all just my opinion but if we have a couple of exciting 6N games (like we did this year) I don't go around saying "Yeah this really exemplifies why NH rugby is superior". Sorry to get triggered but I just felt that was a really stupid comment grounded in nothing. I will stop now. For the record, I don't think either hemisphere is superior. Good rugby is good rugby. Be it Australia vs NZ in a dead rubber Bledisloe, England vs Ireland in a dead rubber 6N, Scotland vs Australia in a summer international... whatever. I get tired of this NH vs SH stuff that I see on the internet all the time but then again why am I letting myself get riled by comments on the internet...

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

This was a friendly, nothing else. But when you compare the past 5 halfs played by Oz against the ABs to the form of the Oz Super Rugby sides I find it easy to say Cheika must be considered a candidate for the best coach in the sport at present.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This was a friendly, nothing else. But when you compare the past 5 halfs played by Oz against the ABs to the form of the Oz Super Rugby sides I find it easy to say Cheika must be considered a candidate for the best coach in the sport at present.

If he fancies a return to Dublin after the Joe Show wins us a RWC in 2019 and goes home I'd be happy out!

 

[The Jones Boy]

We dont have 2 million plus rugby players. That would make the sport more popular than fishing or Golf which it isnt.

Check out the first paragraph before the box graph begins. I'm not stressing the point with you, just showing the stats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries

 

[McTallshort]

We dont have 2 million plus rugby players. That would make the sport more popular than fishing or Golf which it isnt.

Check out the first paragraph before the box graph begins. I'm not stressing the point with you, just showing the stats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries

But the figures don't stack up. The US has more clubs but only third of the players England has? France and SA have roughly the same number of clubs but only 600K players?

The figures are wrong there may have been 2.million players register in the last 30 years or so but there is no way 2.million active adult male rugby players in England.

 

[saulan]

But the figures don't stack up. The US has more clubs but only third of the players England has? France and SA have roughly the same number of clubs but only 600K players?

I don't see how that would be an issue, it would be a simple matter of clubs having more players and teams per club than in other countries. So instead of having a first team to tenth team, the US may only have a first and second team per club, for example.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i have to agree with Tallshort...sounds a bit fishy...we're saying EVERY club in England is 5.5 (ish) times bigger than a corresponding club in France? just logically it doesn't sound right. its not like France is some Rugby nowhere with thousands of clubs on paper but little else, where its played its BIG....

also, according to that list, HALF the worlds rugby players are in england?

edit:....just checked the IRB website itself and they say over 2M in England....

 

[McTallshort]

i have to agree with Tallshort...sounds a bit fishy...we're saying EVERY club in England is 5.5 (ish) times bigger than a corresponding club in France? just logically it doesn't sound right. its not like France is some Rugby nowhere with thousands of clubs on paper but little else, where its played its BIG....

also, according to that list, HALF the worlds rugby players are in england?

edit:....just checked the IRB website itself and they say over 2M in England....

I know what the IRB site says I believe it's figures are wrong. There are far more junior players than senior ones go to any club on a Sunday and you see several teams from several age groups yet there is rarely more than 3 senior sides.

The figures don't add up.

 

[McTallshort]

I don't see how that would be an issue, it would be a simple matter of clubs having more players and teams per club than in other countries. So instead of having a first team to tenth team, the US may only have a first and second team per club, for example.

Most English clubs would struggle to put more than 3 senior teams out.

 

[McTallshort]

Hold on look at the whole table and it says 131399 senior males. That sounds right.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Check out the first paragraph before the box graph begins. I'm not stressing the point with you, just showing the stats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries

What I got from those stats is that apparently Sri Lanka has twice as many rugby players as Wales and nearly 3 times as many as Scotland!

 

[Kiwiwomble]

so, does that mean there is a wave of English players (currently kids) coming through...or does it mean there is something wrong in the system where they give up before they become seniors?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

so, does that mean there is a wave of English players (currently kids) coming through...or does it mean there is something wrong in the system where they give up before they become seniors?

I think the latter.

 

[die_mole]

We dont have 2 million plus rugby players. That would make the sport more popular than fishing or Golf which it isnt.

But the figures don't stack up. The US has more clubs but only third of the players England has? France and SA have roughly the same number of clubs but only 600K players?

The figures are wrong there may have been 2.million players register in the last 30 years or so but there is no way 2.million active adult male rugby players in England.

American clubs generally only put one side out. Higher level clubs are starting to have actual b sides but that's only recently.

 

[The Jones Boy]

so, does that mean there is a wave of English players (currently kids) coming through...or does it mean there is something wrong in the system where they give up before they become seniors?

That is a problem in every country.
The conversion from younger players staying in the game and progressing as seniors.

Regarding the statistics, believe or don't believe whatever you like, the fact is, Englands riches from clubs, to the massive number of players, to stadia, to infrastructure to wealth generated from all the usual suspects far outstrips any other single country on the planet.
Yet the results at the top level are completely out of synch with the potential.
The players England turn out are quality.
I don't see an issue with the players, so where is the issue then?

I stand by what I said. With the riches in so many areas that England has already in the bag, when they do get it right, I can't see anyone knocking them off their perch.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I stand by what I said. With the riches in so many areas that England has already in the bag, when they do get it right, I can't see anyone knocking them off their perch.

If only you're right!

But scale and money bring their own problems. Too many much of a muchness players, too many overseas players, too many overseas coaches, the focus on short termism that money brings, a playing schedule that isn't in the interests of the national team etc etc. But more importantly there'd have to be a change of mind set. I just don't think rugby matters enough to us; we'll do what we can to win, but our national identity doesn't hinge on it the way it does for the Welsh or the Kiwis, or used to in certain parts of France.

If they ever got themselves together again the ones I'd really fear are the French.

 

[RedruthRFC]

If only you're right!

But scale and money bring their own problems. Too many much of a muchness players, too many overseas players, too many overseas coaches, the focus on short termism that money brings, a playing schedule that isn't in the interests of the national team etc etc. But more importantly there'd have to be a change of mind set. I just don't think rugby matters enough to us; we'll do what we can to win, but our national identity doesn't hinge on it the way it does for the Welsh or the Kiwis, or used to in certain parts of France.

If they ever got themselves together again the ones I'd really fear are the French.

Good post. A number further up the thread are proof of the old adage that you can prove anything you want with statistics IMO.

For starters, nobody has explained the difference between players and registered players and why this number is the same in some countries and wildly different in others. I'm struggling to imagine that unregistered players are ever likely to have an impact upon the national team, therefore, I would think that (unless you are simply quoting figures to support an agenda) it makes more sense to compare registered players. Doing this reduced the disparity hugely, with England having just over 2.5 times the players that New Zealand does. In order to produce a meaningful number from which a conclusion could be drawn, you would also have to remove women, children and recreational players (it's hard to imagine a 45 year old who still laces his boots up once in a while for Old Rottinghamians Extra B XV being that valuable to the national team. This of course ignores genetics - many of the pool left would be physically incapable of playing professional rugby, thus useless to the national team.

 

[The Jones Boy]

If only you're right!

But scale and money bring their own problems. Too many much of a muchness players, too many overseas players, too many overseas coaches, the focus on short termism that money brings, a playing schedule that isn't in the interests of the national team etc etc. But more importantly there'd have to be a change of mind set. I just don't think rugby matters enough to us; we'll do what we can to win, but our national identity doesn't hinge on it the way it does for the Welsh or the Kiwis, or used to in certain parts of France.

If they ever got themselves together again the ones I'd really fear are the French.

Ha Ha, yes, I can remember when they did for us in the semi-final in 1999 and the quarters in 2007, the front page of the NZ Herald boasted one large word....
"Buggeur"
When the French are on they are unstoppable.

@Redruth, regardless of the larger number of non contributing players, toward the national team, all those extra bodies help to bring more capital into the local game.

 

[Spuds100]

No doubt he will have a witty retort that explains the magin of error!!

If they had tried it would have been. I don't think there's any doubt about that.