The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[Stewy090]

It is too easy to say "Lancaster should go" he is a good man and two defeats are what they are. Certainly an overhaul of selection is required, Australia changed there's and low and behold Matt Giteau plays well scores job done. Surely for England to thrive we should have our best available players in the right position, if that means they play in France so be it.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Who the hell cares if Lancaster is a good man.

He is a PR man that is all.

 

[Zed]

Management black list: Lancaster, Farrell and Mike Catt must have nothing to do with England rugby again.

Player black list: Brad Barritt, Chris Robshaw and Richard Wigglesworth (This guy must have had pictures of Lancaster and Farrell dressed up as Smurfs with pineapple's up their jacksy's, it's the only way he could have repeatedly be selected) must have nothing to do with England rugby again.

Dropped players(Can work their way back in POSSIBLY!): Mike Brown(He's only ever been a good player, never been stellar despite what commentators have been saying), Sam Burgess(Bone headed buffoon), Owen Farrell (Bone headed buffoon), Joe Marler, Ben Youngs (Awful)

The fact is that England has triple, or probably quadruple the resources of the next most wealthy rugby nation, and have 1.5 million registered player or more! They shouldn't need overseas players and they certainly shouldn't need last minute league converts. This has been the most shambolic rugby world cup of any team in the history of the competition.

It now seems that Lancaster was just a P.E teacher, and Farrell wasn't fit to be the backs coach of the school team that Lancaster used to teach at. The repeated flip flopping over Forde/Farrell and the Burgess fiasco are just two of a myriad of failures. Can't believe this has happened really and what was shaping up to be a fantastic world cup could now be degraded because of this monumental mess up! 4 Years to prepare and this is the result! Sweet Jesus!

Yeah I pretty much agree with most of this. And I'm constantly bemused by Mike Brown being lauded as the best fullback in the world. He's a good solid fullback that rarely makes mistakes, that is it. He's not got a patch on someone like Cullen or Folau or even someone like Iain Balshaw when he was playing well. Josh Lewesy too. Players that need to go - Farrell, Burgess, Barritt all need to go. None of them offer anything in attack and there's barely been a line break from anyone of them this world cup. I think Brown is fine as a backup fullback, but a quicker, more elusive fullback is needed as a starting 15. Does the winger Watson(?) play fullback? He'd be ideal.And England need a no 8 that is fit. Vunipola, Morgan, Easter all carrying way too much lard for elite athletes. Lancaster also needs to go. He may have some coaching ability, but he needs to take some of the blame for this clusterf*ck that is England's World Cup.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Brown is to old to be looked at for 2019 anyway.

 

[j'nuh]

There are still Six Nations to be won before the next WC though. Brown is one of the first names on the team sheet for now. Settle the rest of the team, get some consistency going, then look to replace Brown if he's no longer looking up to it.

And although time is against him, it isn't necessarily the case that he's too old for the next WC.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

There are still Six Nations to be won before the next WC though. Brown is one of the first names on the team sheet for now. Settle the rest of the team, get some consistency going, then look to replace Brown if he's no longer looking up to it.

And although time is against him, it isn't necessarily the case that he's too old for the next WC.

No but if there are other full backs putting hands up like Pennell he would get the chop IMO.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Brown is very good.

Watson and Nowell will almost certainly usurp him in time.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Am I the only one shocked that Tait is younger than Mike Brown!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Tait is still but a wee lass.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It is too easy to say "Lancaster should go" he is a good man and two defeats are what they are. Certainly an overhaul of selection is required, Australia changed there's and low and behold Matt Giteau plays well scores job done. Surely for England to thrive we should have our best available players in the right position, if that means they play in France so be it.

They were not just 2 defeats though, they were 2 home defeats, back to back. One against a Welsh side with half the team injured, the other a complete thrashing by an Aussie team with a coach who has only been there a year, both teams we had beaten this year reasonably convincingly. This year England had been playing the most impressive rugby they had in a while and Lancaster completely bottled it and went for an England side and strategy that was almost identical to England in 2013 6N with the same result, twice! Minimal attacking ability and poor defence. Teams that play a defending game also have a good kicking game and the ability to make turnovers, England tactics seem to be to attempt to just absorb endless attacks without ever making a real attempt to slow the ball down. This style of play was a management decision along with our complete negligence of the breakdown and recent scrum failures.

Quite frankly after having 4 years to prepare, still being unsure about 6 of your positions and suddenly changing your plan for the big games to one that has never been done before is entirely the fault of poor management.

 

[Stewy090]

Rob Andrew should be removed as he is a stumbling block for England, Farrell and roundtree also. I think it is to easy to have a knee jerk reaction... If Stuart Lancaster resigns who takes the reigns? And do we still ignore players like stef armitage and Nick abendonen

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Rob Andrew should be removed as he is a stumbling block for England, Farrell and roundtree also. I think it is to easy to have a knee jerk reaction... If Stuart Lancaster resigns who takes the reigns? And do we still ignore players like stef armitage and Nick abendonen

Yep
Yep
Who knows depends who is about have till February to find one.
Yes

 

[pombrown]

Yep
Yep
Who knows depends who is about have till February to find one.
Yes

If Ewen Mackenzie is available I would drag him in!

 

[Metalman]

So, uh, welcome to the forum... I'd like you to shut your eyes and visualise your happy place ^_^


PacDuran - You're not going to find a lot of support for some of what you're saying there in fairness. Me, I'm taking some time to reflect...

Ok, I admit it… for some reason I was a tad upset last night but my philosophy holds true: I have played rugby in my youth, I have coached rugby in middle age, and I have watched rugby for over 50 years man and boy. I have seen England teams come and go, read the press hyperbole, witnessed the let-downs and occasional period of success. The fact remains that knee jerk criticisms of a side still in development are wrong. Insulting one's are doubly so. I stand by my previous post.

This is a team in development. It's not the best time to have a world cup thrust upon us that's all. After the Andy Robinson, Martin Johnson troubles I think Lancaster is on to something and may well bring about a bloody good side. Watson? Joseph? Ford? Launchbury? Lawes? I wouldn't call them seasoned internationals yet, and when they learn their trade through experience I think we'll have a good side ready for anyone in Japan. Let's remember what Lancaster started with - he has done well but had a tough group at the wrong stage of his building a side.

I closed my eyes TRF_Peat as you correctly advised and visualised 2017 -19, it looks a happy place for England.

 

[PacDuran]

Yeah I pretty much agree with most of this. And I'm constantly bemused by Mike Brown being lauded as the best fullback in the world. He's a good solid fullback that rarely makes mistakes, that is it. He's not got a patch on someone like Cullen or Folau or even someone like Iain Balshaw when he was playing well. Josh Lewesy too. Players that need to go - Farrell, Burgess, Barritt all need to go. None of them offer anything in attack and there's barely been a line break from anyone of them this world cup. I think Brown is fine as a backup fullback, but a quicker, more elusive fullback is needed as a starting 15. Does the winger Watson(?) play fullback? He'd be ideal.And England need a no 8 that is fit. Vunipola, Morgan, Easter all carrying way too much lard for elite athletes. Lancaster also needs to go. He may have some coaching ability, but he needs to take some of the blame for this clusterf*ck that is England's World Cup.

Yeah Watson plays fullback but it would be better to keep May and Watson where they are and just find a new fullback, 1.5 million registered players remember. There's got to be a quick elusive and solid under the high ball fullback in England somewhere. As for the 7 Gloucester have a good 7 can't remember his name. He was never given a chance for some reason.

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Am I the only one shocked that Tait is younger than Mike Brown!

Tait is the biggest waste of talent in a long time. The run he went on in 2007-WHEW lordly lorde!

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If Ewen Mackenzie is available I would drag him in!

Break the bank for Graham Henry and watch the silverware rain into Twickenham.

 

[Zed]

Ok, I admit it… for some reason I was a tad upset last night but my philosophy holds true: I have played rugby in my youth, I have coached rugby in middle age, and I have watched rugby for over 50 years man and boy. I have seen England teams come and go, read the press hyperbole, witnessed the let-downs and occasional period of success. The fact remains that knee jerk criticisms of a side still in development are wrong. Insulting one's are doubly so. I stand by my previous post.

This is a team in development. It's not the best time to have a world cup thrust upon us that's all. After the Andy Robinson, Martin Johnson troubles I think Lancaster is on to something and may well bring about a bloody good side. Watson? Joseph? Ford? Launchbury? Lawes? I wouldn't call them seasoned internationals yet, and when they learn their trade through experience I think we'll have a good side ready for anyone in Japan. Let's remember what Lancaster started with - he has done well but had a tough group at the wrong stage of his building a side.

He had 4 years to get a team together , 4 years to get a consistent lineup, yet right up until the last minute he was chopping and changing players, putting players in positions where they shouldn't be, starting a guy with not even a years rugby union experience in an unfamiliar position in one of the countries most important games in years. Stuart Lancaster hasn't done his job and needs to go. The Sam Burgess debacle is justification in itself. Is there really such a dearth of centres in the UK?

 

[Maverick1987]

My starting pack vs Scotland in the first game of the 6N would be

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Dylan Hartley/Jamie George
3. Dan Cole
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Ed Slater (captain)
6. Maro Itoje
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Billy Vunipola

16. Tom Youngs
17. Nick Auterac
18. Kieron Brookes
19. Lawes/Attwood
20. Dave Ewers

I'd be pushing hard to get Nick Mallet and Wayne Smith on board too . Don't mind who comes in at forwards coach and we need a stand alone defence coach it has worked well for Wales with Shaun Edwards

 

[TheOvalBall]

Who should replace Lancaster ?

 

[dullonien]

Whilst I accept that Armitage is England's best option at 7 at this moment in time, I'm not sure that changing the overseas rule just for him is the correct thing to do.

England need to look a little deeper at why with 12 premiership teams, and a strong championship league, they can't produce more than 1/2 international class openside (jury is still out on Kvesic imo)?

When Martyn Williams was approaching retirement, we literally had no other options of real note available. The regional academies worked quickly to change that, and not we've got opensides coming out of our ears. Warburton, Tupuric, Navidi, James Davies, Olly Griffiths, Ellis Jenkins. There's also Thomas Young, Sam Lewis and Dan Thomas playing their trade in England. Granted there's a mix of world class, promising youngsters, and possibly not quite international class there, but that's quite a turnaround.

English rugby needs to identify and target the development of certain positions. They have the player numbers and resources to do so, but it may take the RFU and clubs working more closely at academy level to do so.

In most other positions England have more than enough options. Managing all those players will always be tricky, as the form player in each position changes almost weekly. England can't continuously change their team every time a new youngster emerges. They need to develop a spine of experienced players to build a team around. The problem is identifying those players who are good enough, experienced enough, have real leadership qualities, and the temperament. Quite a few have one or two of those, but I don't really see many at all with all 4. For me that's the toughest thing facing a new coach.

 

[valley commando]

I made some of the following comments pre WC and was slated by certain fools -:

1. Lancaster and the RFU are stupid to stick with the no players picked who play abroad Stefan Armitage is the only genuine openside England have had since Neil Back.
2. Abendenon is a better fullback than Brown who clearly has issues temper wise leading to rash decisions with ball in hand.
3. Cipriani should have been in the squad.