The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[PacDuran]

Management black list: Lancaster, Farrell and Mike Catt must have nothing to do with England rugby again.

Player black list: Brad Barritt, Chris Robshaw and Richard Wigglesworth (This guy must have had pictures of Lancaster and Farrell dressed up as Smurfs with pineapple's up their jacksy's, it's the only way he could have repeatedly be selected) must have nothing to do with England rugby again.

Dropped players(Can work their way back in POSSIBLY!): Mike Brown(He's only ever been a good player, never been stellar despite what commentators have been saying), Sam Burgess(Bone headed buffoon), Owen Farrell (Bone headed buffoon), Joe Marler, Ben Youngs (Awful)

The fact is that England has triple, or probably quadruple the resources of the next most wealthy rugby nation, and have 1.5 million registered player or more! They shouldn't need overseas players and they certainly shouldn't need last minute league converts. This has been the most shambolic rugby world cup of any team in the history of the competition.

It now seems that Lancaster was just a P.E teacher, and Farrell wasn't fit to be the backs coach of the school team that Lancaster used to teach at. The repeated flip flopping over Forde/Farrell and the Burgess fiasco are just two of a myriad of failures. Can't believe this has happened really and what was shaping up to be a fantastic world cup could now be degraded because of this monumental mess up! 4 Years to prepare and this is the result! Sweet Jesus!

 

[Maverick1987]

Your so wrong with your dropped players part it's not even funny .....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ennit.

 

[Maverick1987]

Also you have Chris Robshaw on your blacklisted players yet most believe he's a quality player playing on the wrong flank

 

[PacDuran]

Also you have Chris Robshaw on your blacklisted players yet most believe he's a quality player playing on the wrong flank

Just my opinion anyway man, but Robshaw has always been an average player. How he came to be captain is incredible to me. He's shown no ability to inspire his player, terrible decision making and no ability to play the ref or adapt to his scrum/breakdown decisions. He is also getting old and there should be wholesale changes, which means new captain. There is no doubt a beter 6 in England than Robshaw surely?? Anyway there will be in a year at most so get him out I say!

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Also you have Chris Robshaw on your blacklisted players yet most believe he's a quality player playing on the wrong flank

Just my opinion anyway man, but Robshaw has always been an average player. How he came to be captain is incredible to me. He's shown no ability to inspire his player, terrible decision making and no ability to play the ref or adapt to his scrum/breakdown decisions. He is also getting old and there should be wholesale changes, which means new captain. There is no doubt a beter 6 in England than Robshaw surely?? Anyway there will be in a year at most so get him out I say!

 

[Maverick1987]

Yeh but to be fair we will be going into a six nations that we will be desperate to win to put some of these nightmares to bed so we will have to be careful tearing the arsehole out of the team

 

[Metalman]

I read this forum occasionally and enjoy the varied informed opinions of every type of supporter. Not all are welcome; your post is the only one in two years which has infuriated me enough to encourage me to sign up to this site and post back.

You are an uninformed moronic barbarian who clearly knows nothing of rugby or it's tactics. You are a one-eyed brain dead simpleton who believes that if somebody spits in your eye it must be raining. Do you know what? not all newspaper reports are correct, try getting into the game before you mouth off.

I bet you tried to play soccer but were so bad you were laughed off the pitch and then attached yourself to rugby as an outlet for your frustration. You are not the sort of person our game needs.

Leinster can do without your sort too, find another game and leave those of us who know how to enjoy the spirit of the game without your typo of vitriol alone.

You are an opinionated biased philistine

 

[Rich Taff]

I read this forum occasionally and enjoy the varied informed opinions of every type of supporter. Not all are welcome; your post is the only one in two years which has infuriated me enough to encourage me to sign up to this site and post back.

You are an uninformed moronic barbarian who clearly knows nothing of rugby or it's tactics. You are a one-eyed brain dead simpleton who believes that if somebody spits in your eye it must be raining. Do you know what? not all newspaper reports are correct, try getting into the game before you mouth off.

I bet you tried to play soccer but were so bad you were laughed off the pitch and then attached yourself to rugby as an outlet for your frustration. You are not the sort of person our game needs.

Leinster can do without your sort too, find another game and leave those of us who know how to enjoy the spirit of the game without your typo of vitriol alone.

You are an opinionated biased philistine

Stop beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel!

 

[PacDuran]

I read this forum occasionally and enjoy the varied informed opinions of every type of supporter. Not all are welcome; your post is the only one in two years which has infuriated me enough to encourage me to sign up to this site and post back.

You are an uninformed moronic barbarian who clearly knows nothing of rugby or it's tactics. You are a one-eyed brain dead simpleton who believes that if somebody spits in your eye it must be raining. Do you know what? not all newspaper reports are correct, try getting into the game before you mouth off.

I bet you tried to play soccer but were so bad you were laughed off the pitch and then attached yourself to rugby as an outlet for your frustration. You are not the sort of person our game needs.

Leinster can do without your sort too, find another game and leave those of us who know how to enjoy the spirit of the game without your typo of vitriol alone.

You are an opinionated biased philistine

Relax bud I've played both soccer and Gaelic football at school and rugby for a number of years. I think you have joined this forum to vent your rage at England's embarrassment. I am in no way biased and I was supporting England to the hilt tonight. Are you telling me that you believe that root and branch reform is not needed?

I was calling for the same sort of top down reorganisation as this when Ireland were knocked out in 2007 if that will assuage your rage?

 

[ABs2011]

I dont know the English players enough to say who I would and wouldnt drop, but some general observations.

You need an openside that can win you ball. Perhaps that means shifting Robshaw to 6, or dropping him altogether. Whatever it is, something needs to change there.

Further to the breakdown issue it struck me you were a ruck clearing lock away from being able to protect your ball well enough. I dont mean to talk up NZ players, but a player such as Retalick that is just a monster when it comes to the number of rucks he makes and the efficacy of his clear outs is a real key to the ABs game.

Your scrum needs work. I particularly watcher Marler today after all the hooplah before the game and he definitely angles in. I;m not sure how many penalties he conceded, but 5 in total at scrums, plus the scrum dominance OZ got, and at times Fiji for that matter, something needs to change there, or at least it needs to be a major work on.

I think you need to find a different 12. Things seemed to break down there a lot. Joeseph looks really impressive at 13 - perhaps there wasnt another option but I wouldnt have shifted him to the wing after half time. Perhaps Burgess is the answer at 12. He definitely has the size and off load game, I guess it comes down to whether he has the vision and passing game required to be a 12.

Overall tactics look to be confused to me so perhaps a change in coach is needed too. I understand England want to play a more attacking game. I'm not sure if that is the right option or not for them though? If they want to, it can only work if that is the type of rugby all their players are used to at lower levels. Otherwise you go from club forward dominated stuff, to international rugby where players are expected to change their game completely. If thats the case I dont think it will ever work. I'm not saying this is happening - more a question I guess. There have been specific occasions during the tournament where I've felt player decision making looks confused - they look to be battling between their natural tight forward dominated territorial rugby and perhaps the more attacking rugby they are told/want to actually play.

Just some thoughts. I'd be interested to hear what the English think!

Oh and last thing - I listened quite carefuly to Wilkinson both during and after the game on the coverage I was streaming. 2 things struck me (1) England need to get him (more) involved in the team somehow. Does he coach rugby at any level over there? He looks like he could be a fantastic member of a coaching staff and (2) his comments were pretty on to it I thought. He was essentially calling for a bit of calm after the loss and not too much change. My interpretation was that given the changes in England rugby over recent times he was calling for more time to get that right. A complete back flip from where you guys are at now in terms of personnel could be more detrimental than not. Interested on thoughts of JW!

 

[jomjom]

I read this forum occasionally and enjoy the varied informed opinions of every type of supporter. Not all are welcome; your post is the only one in two years which has infuriated me enough to encourage me to sign up to this site and post back.

You are an uninformed moronic barbarian who clearly knows nothing of rugby or it's tactics. You are a one-eyed brain dead simpleton who believes that if somebody spits in your eye it must be raining. Do you know what? not all newspaper reports are correct, try getting into the game before you mouth off.

I bet you tried to play soccer but were so bad you were laughed off the pitch and then attached yourself to rugby as an outlet for your frustration. You are not the sort of person our game needs.

Leinster can do without your sort too, find another game and leave those of us who know how to enjoy the spirit of the game without your typo of vitriol alone.

You are an opinionated biased philistine

 

[Peat]

I read this forum occasionally and enjoy the varied informed opinions of every type of supporter. Not all are welcome; your post is the only one in two years which has infuriated me enough to encourage me to sign up to this site and post back.

You are an uninformed moronic barbarian who clearly knows nothing of rugby or it's tactics. You are a one-eyed brain dead simpleton who believes that if somebody spits in your eye it must be raining. Do you know what? not all newspaper reports are correct, try getting into the game before you mouth off.

I bet you tried to play soccer but were so bad you were laughed off the pitch and then attached yourself to rugby as an outlet for your frustration. You are not the sort of person our game needs.

Leinster can do without your sort too, find another game and leave those of us who know how to enjoy the spirit of the game without your typo of vitriol alone.

You are an opinionated biased philistine

So, uh, welcome to the forum... I'd like you to shut your eyes and visualise your happy place ^_^


PacDuran - You're not going to find a lot of support for some of what you're saying there in fairness. Me, I'm taking some time to reflect...

 

[PacDuran]

I dont know the English players enough to say who I would and wouldnt drop, but some general observations.

You need an openside that can win you ball. Perhaps that means shifting Robshaw to 6, or dropping him altogether. Whatever it is, something needs to change there.

Further to the breakdown issue it struck me you were a ruck clearing lock away from being able to protect your ball well enough. I dont mean to talk up NZ players, but a player such as Retalick that is just a monster when it comes to the number of rucks he makes and the efficacy of his clear outs is a real key to the ABs game.

Your scrum needs work. I particularly watcher Marler today after all the hooplah before the game and he definitely angles in. I;m not sure how many penalties he conceded, but 5 in total at scrums, plus the scrum dominance OZ got, and at times Fiji for that matter, something needs to change there, or at least it needs to be a major work on.

I think you need to find a different 12. Things seemed to break down there a lot. Joeseph looks really impressive at 13 - perhaps there wasnt another option but I wouldnt have shifted him to the wing after half time. Perhaps Burgess is the answer at 12. He definitely has the size and off load game, I guess it comes down to whether he has the vision and passing game required to be a 12.

Overall tactics look to be confused to me so perhaps a change in coach is needed too. I understand England want to play a more attacking game. I'm not sure if that is the right option or not for them though? If they want to, it can only work if that is the type of rugby all their players are used to at lower levels. Otherwise you go from club forward dominated stuff, to international rugby where players are expected to change their game completely. If thats the case I dont think it will ever work. I'm not saying this is happening - more a question I guess. There have been specific occasions during the tournament where I've felt player decision making looks confused - they look to be battling between their natural tight forward dominated territorial rugby and perhaps the more attacking rugby they are told/want to actually play.

Just some thoughts. I'd be interested to hear what the English think!

That's the kind of reply to this thread I was hoping for. Maybe I shouldn't have used such language in the immediate aftermath of this great humbling. It sucks for the RWC that England are gone tbh.

- - - Updated - - -

So, uh, welcome to the forum... I'd like you to shut your eyes and visualise your happy place ^_^


PacDuran - You're not going to find a lot of support for some of what you're saying there in fairness. Me, I'm taking some time to reflect...

The exact analogue is 2007 where very similar changes needed to be made for my country. Sorry If I pressed a few buttons there, should have used less provocative language in retrospect. The "bone head buffoon" thing was clearly about Farrell and Burgess's tackle that should have resulted in 2 yellow cards from one play (a first maybe?). This was unforgivable from both guys, the match was on the line and they freak out like that. Insane play.

- - - Updated - - -

So, uh, welcome to the forum... I'd like you to shut your eyes and visualise your happy place ^_^


PacDuran - You're not going to find a lot of support for some of what you're saying there in fairness. Me, I'm taking some time to reflect...

The exact analogue is 2007 where very similar changes needed to be made for my country. Sorry If I pressed a few buttons there, should have used less provocative language in retrospect. The "bone head buffoon" thing was clearly about Farrell and Burgess's tackle that should have resulted in 2 yellow cards from one play (a first maybe?). This was unforgivable from both guys, the match was on the line and they freak out like that. Insane play.

 

[Maverick1987]

I dont know the English players enough to say who I would and wouldnt drop, but some general observations.

You need an openside that can win you ball. Perhaps that means shifting Robshaw to 6, or dropping him altogether. Whatever it is, something needs to change there.

Further to the breakdown issue it struck me you were a ruck clearing lock away from being able to protect your ball well enough. I dont mean to talk up NZ players, but a player such as Retalick that is just a monster when it comes to the number of rucks he makes and the efficacy of his clear outs is a real key to the ABs game.

Your scrum needs work. I particularly watcher Marler today after all the hooplah before the game and he definitely angles in. I;m not sure how many penalties he conceded, but 5 in total at scrums, plus the scrum dominance OZ got, and at times Fiji for that matter, something needs to change there, or at least it needs to be a major work on.

I think you need to find a different 12. Things seemed to break down there a lot. Joeseph looks really impressive at 13 - perhaps there wasnt another option but I wouldnt have shifted him to the wing after half time. Perhaps Burgess is the answer at 12. He definitely has the size and off load game, I guess it comes down to whether he has the vision and passing game required to be a 12.

Overall tactics look to be confused to me so perhaps a change in coach is needed too. I understand England want to play a more attacking game. I'm not sure if that is the right option or not for them though? If they want to, it can only work if that is the type of rugby all their players are used to at lower levels. Otherwise you go from club forward dominated stuff, to international rugby where players are expected to change their game completely. If thats the case I dont think it will ever work. I'm not saying this is happening - more a question I guess. There have been specific occasions during the tournament where I've felt player decision making looks confused - they look to be battling between their natural tight forward dominated territorial rugby and perhaps the more attacking rugby they are told/want to actually play.

Just some thoughts. I'd be interested to hear what the English think!

Oh and last thing - I listened quite carefuly to Wilkinson both during and after the game on the coverage I was streaming. 2 things struck me (1) England need to get him (more) involved in the team somehow. Does he coach rugby at any level over there? He looks like he could be a fantastic member of a coaching staff and (2) his comments were pretty on to it I thought. He was essentially calling for a bit of calm after the loss and not too much change. My interpretation was that given the changes in England rugby over recent times he was calling for more time to get that right. A complete back flip from where you guys are at now in terms of personnel could be more detrimental than not. Interested on thoughts of JW!

Yeh I'd like to thank you on a cool reply . Not an ounce of **** taking which is why I joined this forum 4 odd years ago . I'm gonna have a think about a few things . Sleep on them if you like I'm sure I'll be back tomorrow with some "ideas" . Night all

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Honestly I find it unfathomable that in the four years since 2011 England have not settled on a 10, 12, 13 combination, or even anything close to it.

Twelvetrees, Barritt, Burrell, Tuilagi and Joseph have all started a similar number of games in that period, and every new series it seems like there's a new preferred combination (Twelvetrees and Burrell in last year's Six Nations, Eastmond and Joseph on the EOYT, Burrell and Joseph in this year's Six Nations, just for example). Why has this combination never been settled upon? Add in the other wildcards (Farrell, Burgess etc.) and you have a ridiculous amount of chopping and changing. Then you have to factor in the carousel that is the 10 jersey and the problem grows even larger.

In contrast, NZ's preferred combination is obviously Nonu and Smith, with SBW and Fekitoa subbing in on occasion. There have been a few other players used in the midfield (Ben Smith, Ellison, Crotty), but they have always been forced changes, as opposed to the selectors chopping and changing almost arbitrarily.

It really is crazy.

 

[Ospervat]

Not sure I would make wholesale changes.

Lancaster and cohorts have to go.
Bring in new management (foreign if necessary) and let them do the chopping after that.

Sometimes it's the quality of the relationship between players, captain and management that makes a good team great.

 

[Peat]

Mr Fish speaks great truth. The instability in the midfield is insane and I think it is a symptom of a lot of confused thinking, which has eventually filtered down to this.

PacDuran - No worries man. Tbh, it's not about the language choice, simply you've named some guys who most people here see as pillars of the team over the past few years.

Me... I wouldn't rule anyone out except for Nick Easter. If we get a new coach in and he thinks player X provides this asset that he needs, and he thinks he can get player X player to the standard required, then the past is irrelevant. How these guys perform in a new environment with different demands waits to be seen, and that's the question.

Sure, there's guys I want gone (although mulling on that) but that doesn't mean England should get rid.

 

[Rugby Jay]

From a neutral point of view I can say a few things went against England and the players are damn good players and not all to blame (certain players could be and should have been replaced) and to blame them for getting knocked out was bound to happen. However I think the buck starts and ends with the coaching staff. The players have been playing how they are coached to play and it clearly didn't work. Two key things failed on that pitch that could have changed the way this went.

1. After sticking with George Ford for a lot of the games before the world cup and switching to Farrell was a HUGE mistake, Farrell is a good player but Ford is better and England should have played Wales with Ford starting ready for the Australia game. Not playing him showed uncertainty in the Lancaster's choice of who is England's number one 10. A team needs consistency in its key positions.

2. Discipline, this was England's down fall in the Wales game England gave away so many penalties it kept us in the game and in professional rugby let alone a world cup you cannot give away shots at goal if you hope to win. In the Australia game this also proved to be the same issue especially in the last 20 minutes of the game where you had the chance to claw your way back.

Sadly the truth is England just weren't good enough to win this World Cup and should never had put themselves under pressure by thinking they were. Don't hate on the players or coaches for this just learn to accept it and learn from it.

I mean this in a very non sarcastic way, better luck next time.

 

[j'nuh]

I find it hard to judge Lancaster about what happened with the centres; I think he gave plenty of players plenty of chance to show what they were worth. Unfortunately, none of them lived up to any kind of their hype. Twelvetrees initially looked like he could be the complete 12, and then out of nowhere started proactively losing games with terrible decision-making. Burrell showed promise and had a great season with the Saints, and never really delivered on the international level, particularly defensively. He didn't seem to get his carrying game going on the international level like he did at club level. Joseph found a good vein of form late in Lancaster's tenure but wasn't seen (by anyone) as an England option early on. Tuilagi hasn't been available for England for the best part of the last two years through injury and assaulting police officers. Barritt is the only player to have shown any kind of consistency over 4 years, but many (most?) would say he's far too limited a player for international rugby.

There were some mistakes. I still don't understand moving Burgess to 12. And it was a terrible idea not to try out Slade at some point in 2015. Barritt was probably overused. It was probably a waste giving Eastmond any caps as his size probably limits him too much at 12. But on the whole, he gave a number of players a decent run in the team and only Joseph impressed.

We're in a (perhaps) better position in the centres going into 2016. Tuilagi-Joseph has all the trademarks of a long-term partnership and we'll see it hopefully for the first time in the Six Nations. We then have a new batch of centres to look at - Hill, Slade, Stephenson, Marshall - at some point in the next 4 years.

A potential problem going forward is that Farrell and Ford are vastly different players and whoever starts will change the kind of service and the kind of game that the centres will have to play. The "attack-first"/"defence-first" dichotomy was at the heart of the inconsistency in selection in this world cup after all. Picking Ford and Cipriani/Slade or Farrell and Slade as the main fly-halves would probably give us a more consistent game plan.

 

[Colombia]

Everybody likes to play selector but honestly, it's not the players. The "minnow" teams have vastly inferior players but get much more out of them.

The coaches need to be replaced. In 2012, England had the choice of Mallett-Smith combination, a White-Jones combination and who did the RFU pick? yes, Stuart Lancaster & Andy Farrell.