The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[GoTheNaki]

Well, with the way English sports media works... The coaching staff will more than likely be finding other jobs.

The players that should have big question marks over their heads, I would say:

Robshaw - What does he really bring?

Mike Brown - I'm not saying cut him out, but like, the NH fans have always had major props for this guy, and I've just never seen it... Ok, he may be your best fullback that you have, but he just is not on the same level as other fullbacks. I mean, the All Blacks left a better fullback at home, so...

The #10 debacle - I would personally go with Farrell, I think he's got "it". I was never a fan of him, something really use to bug me about him. But, I honestly think if England get the right coach, he is definitely the way forward. His passing and kicking is something that I feel England will rely upon. (I like his cut-out balls)

Ben Youngs - I like how he played, and unless you guys have someone coming through, he's going to be your man. He's a nice player. When Wigglesworth come on, I was like, "oh well... game over..".

Launchbury - He's clearly going to have a big future. He will be a top lock. I would put this young man in the pool of Retallick, Etzebeth, de Jager, and probably Tuipolotu(in the end). Fantastic young locks. And it's only just the start for the kids that were a part of the team that "did well in the JWC". Obviously the others are Ford, Farrell, and Joseph, who all played today.

Centres - This was another glaring problem for England... Who do you run with? I mean, ****, you have the wicked pool for centres... I wish the ABs had this kind of problem in these positions... I honestly thought, that coming into the world cup, we would have seen Tuilagi and Eastmond.. I don't know what happened, well, I know what happened with Manu... But, those two are scary. You have Tuilagi, Joseph, Eastmond, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Burgess... You guys are welcome to name anyone else, but DAMN. Awesome players. I don't feel Twelvetrees or Barritt... What about your JWC teams? Anything in there? If you go with Tuilagi at 13, you have to have someone with finesse.. Someone with vision and great passing.. Does anyone fit that description?

I'll stick with these players for now and see what you guys reckon.

But, as far as future goes.. Your JWC teams have been awesome, world topping. So, there is plenty of talent out there. As I keep reiterating... If you put those kids in the right situations to excel, just like NZ does, then you will be fine.

 

[j'nuh]

Everybody likes to play selector but honestly, it's not the players. The "minnow" teams have vastly inferior players but get much more out of them.

The coaches need to be replaced. In 2012, England had the choice of Mallett-Smith combination, a White-Jones combination and who did the RFU pick? yes, Stuart Lancaster & Andy Farrell.

I forgot Mallett was an option as the head coach. I wouldn't be totally opposed to him coming in now.

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Mike Brown - I'm not saying cut him out, but like, the NH fans have always had major props for this guy, and I've just never seen it... Ok, he may be your best fullback that you have, but he just is not on the same level as other fullbacks. I mean, the All Blacks left a better fullback at home, so...

Eh, I think he's been our best player this WC, and for the last year in general to be honest. He's not got the top speed that some other fullbacks have, but teams clearly have a hard time putting him down anyway, he attacks the line well, and his kicking game out of his half is great (imo).

 

[AlanJ]

Gentlemen, take time to reflect. Don't bring out the hatchet with the coach or the team, Jonny Wilkinson spoke with heart after the game and you could see he was hurting. England have a fantastic squad here and just need a bit of fine tuning, having been a Welsh rugby fan for many years i have been through your anguish and pain, i know it hurts and it feels like the end of the world at the moment, we felt the same when Sam Warburton got sent off in the semi final in the last one.This England team is a class act and i'm sure will go on to greatness. But England, Wales and Australia should never have been in the same group.This tournament won't be the same without England progressing to the knock out stages, don't knock your team don't call for sackings or squad changes. Be proud of your team, support them especially now when they feel they've let you down, because they haven't. They still stand tall as proud Englishmen having battled hard and given their all. Wear your rose with pride gentlemen and ladies fore it comes with a lot of history.

 

[Colombia]

Gentlemen, take time to reflect. Don't bring out the hatchet with the coach or the team, Jonny Wilkinson spoke with heart after the game and you could see he was hurting. England have a fantastic squad here and just need a bit of fine tuning, having been a Welsh rugby fan for many years i have been through your anguish and pain, i know it hurts and it feels like the end of the world at the moment, we felt the same when Sam Warburton got sent off in the semi final in the last one.This England team is a class act and i'm sure will go on to greatness. But England, Wales and Australia should never have been in the same group.This tournament won't be the same without England progressing to the knock out stages, don't knock your team don't call for sackings or squad changes. Be proud of your team, support them especially now when they feel they've let you down, because they haven't. They still stand tall as proud Englishmen having battled hard and given their all. Wear your rose with pride gentlemen and ladies fore it comes with a lot of history.

Love JW but he was wrong on maintaining the coaching staff, they've got to go. I don't agree this England team is a class act, they're far from that. Good players, not a good team.

 

[Rugby Jay]

Well, with the way English sports media works... The coaching staff will more than likely be finding other jobs.

The players that should have big question marks over their heads, I would say:

Robshaw - What does he really bring?

Mike Brown - I'm not saying cut him out, but like, the NH fans have always had major props for this guy, and I've just never seen it... Ok, he may be your best fullback that you have, but he just is not on the same level as other fullbacks. I mean, the All Blacks left a better fullback at home, so...

The #10 debacle - I would personally go with Farrell, I think he's got "it". I was never a fan of him, something really use to bug me about him. But, I honestly think if England get the right coach, he is definitely the way forward. His passing and kicking is something that I feel England will rely upon. (I like his cut-out balls)

Ben Youngs - I like how he played, and unless you guys have someone coming through, he's going to be your man. He's a nice player. When Wigglesworth come on, I was like, "oh well... game over..".

Launchbury - He's clearly going to have a big future. He will be a top lock. I would put this young man in the pool of Retallick, Etzebeth, de Jager, and probably Tuipolotu(in the end). Fantastic young locks. And it's only just the start for the kids that were a part of the team that "did well in the JWC". Obviously the others are Ford, Farrell, and Joseph, who all played today.

Centres - This was another glaring problem for England... Who do you run with? I mean, ****, you have the wicked pool for centres... I wish the ABs had this kind of problem in these positions... I honestly thought, that coming into the world cup, we would have seen Tuilagi and Eastmond.. I don't know what happened, well, I know what happened with Manu... But, those two are scary. You have Tuilagi, Joseph, Eastmond, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Burgess... You guys are welcome to name anyone else, but DAMN. Awesome players. I don't feel Twelvetrees or Barritt... What about your JWC teams? Anything in there? If you go with Tuilagi at 13, you have to have someone with finesse.. Someone with vision and great passing.. Does anyone fit that description?

Lets Start with Robshaw, he is a good player but I think the issue lies in the choice of him being Captain he just isn't a leader some one like Haskell or even Easter would be a better choice to lead as they are vocal and lead by example. Also England should have called in Steffon Armitage regardless of where in the world he is playing.

Mike Brown is a damn good 15 but has been over relied upon the last few years and I think Elliot Daly should have been the main choice because he is a more threatening player.

I personally believe Farrell is too much of a lose cannon and needs the Cipriani treatment so he can grow into a complete 10.

I have no idea why England persist with Ben Youngs when they have the pure skill and danger in Danny Care who is very quick with moving the ball out of the ruck, he can snipe from the fringes of a maul or scrum and has the speed to boot. Has even kicked a few drop goals and yet they still leave him out.

Centres style that works is usually and used to be, 12 (the extra 10 and talented runner with a huge hole punching 13 coming off his shoulder) and England should have gone to this while Joseph was injured. Joseph/ Twelvetrees 12 and Burgess 13 was the best pairing England could have asked for tbh and should have stuck with it. Barritt was proven useless against Wales so think he should be dropped.

 

[OverGore]

imo, first thing to do is remove that retarded rule that removes from selection any player playin in TOP14. This is so stupid, as if france or ireland woudlnt select a top player cos he plays 500kms away...Not only stupid but against evolution...this rule shocks me, its beyond conservatism. You cant make rules of this type to protect your championship, and expect the national team to get better. Players get better by playin in differnt countries and cultures.
Giteau didnt turn ****t by playin in france, and in his team you ll find the Armitage bros that woudl have do so much good to this english team.
And Farell proved many times he cant handle pressure, even in ERC.

 

[Folau Tank]

England needs to rehabilitate Manu Tuilagi and they need to change the selection rule like Australia and South Africa and bring players from non-English clubs such as Delon Armitage. Also Bring back Marland Yarde and Chris Ashton

 

[nickdnz]

Here are my thoughts from the outside looking in:

For me it starts with Lancaster: People are now claiming the coaching staff are all terrible. In my view it is not so much that they are terrible coaches, but that they were selected without the level of experience and success required to be coaching one of the top international rugby teams in the world. Lancaster was largely selected with his work with the Saxons (which in tern was appointed after his work with Leeds - during which they were constantly promoted and then relegated...). He had never won any major ***le as a club coach. His work with Saxons is probably also quite telling - he was working with a bunch of players who if they didn't perform well they would be dropped out of the Saxons, and if they did perform well would be picked up by England. The point I am trying to get at here is that Lancaster has never really had experience at building and developing a team, and really was not the man for the job.

He got the job because the RFU was looking for a replacement to MJ (another inspired selection), and because he didn't tank in the 6 Nations, they just said "well he's probably the best candidate then". The next coach has to really be someone who has achieved success at a high level. There is a lot of resistance to getting a SH/NZ coach. I think they could do amazingly with someone like Dave Rennie if they could pry him away, or Eddie Jones for that matter. But if not that - why not someone like Mark McCall or even Richard Cockerill? They have at least had success at club level? I feel that both England and France select their coaches arbitrarily, or through a value within their organizations that hasn't relied on successful results as a rugby coach.

Not to rub anything in: but you simply can't be hitting a RWC tournament without combinations having a lot of time together. I think there was a stat that this was the 18th centre combination under Lancaster. Madness. People can get mad all they want at the players, but if they are being asked to play against teams who all have established combinations and know each other well, then of course you are going to struggle.

It's not that England's team was full of bad players, but it didn't seem many complimented each other. For years people have been saying England need a specialist 7 - not two 6.5s. It's not a new weakness, Lewis Moody was forever used in 7 - who is in my opinion a similar player to Robshaw. Surely there was time to work Kvesic in there. Okay England was monstered in the front row - but it's strange to me that it was seen as such a weapon with the players there. I just feel that Lancaster had this vague idea of a game plan, and tried to mold the players he had left there around it, and replaced them or overlooked their faults when they couldn't.

If England get in a quality coaching team - then they have the resources to be one of the best in the world. But there would be no point picking up another coach who hasn't yet proven his ability to get success in a domestic league.

England needs to rehabilitate Manu Tuilagi and they need to change the selection rule like Australia and South Africa and bring players from non-English clubs such as Delon Armitage. Also Bring back Marland Yarde and Chris Ashton

Disagree. They didn't lose because of no Armitage (in fact I think England's domestic game has really benefited from it - and there are only two players who would have gotten a look in anyway). They lose because they didn't build a coherent squad over four years. Ashton? I'd back both of England's current wingers over him, and I'd rather see a few others in there over him.

 

[GoTheNaki]

imo, first thing to do is remove that retarded rule that removes from selection any player playin in TOP14. This is so stupid, as if france or ireland woudlnt select a top player cos he plays 500kms away...Not only stupid but against evolution...this rule shocks me, its beyond conservatism. You cant make rules of this type to protect your championship, and expect the national team to get better. Players get better by playin in differnt countries and cultures.
Giteau didnt turn ****t by playin in france, and in his team you ll find the Armitage bros that woudl have do so much good to this english team.
And Farell proved many times he cant handle pressure, even in ERC.

Farrell did nothing bad in this game, though...? There are not many 20-26 year old 10s that I would take over him. He can only really be as good as his team, and the coaches game plans. England's forwards were destroyed this game, they were committing a lot of people into the breakdown just to stop Hooper/Pocock. I feel that with the right coaching staff who take on the right philosophy/ethics, he'll be very good.

Also, to the poster above, this "Cipriani treatment" did England no good... You need x-factor. Practically every other international coach would have chosen Cips, I guarantee it.

In regards to the whole "choosing players who play in your country or particular competition"... I mean, honestly, the only country that has so far done well with that has been New Zealand. Don't get me wrong, we have most definitely lost prime talent. Luke McAlister, Nick Evans etc. but it has never quite hindered our progression. Our grassroots rugby is terrific, so talent pops up all the time (oh man, you should have seen Akira Ioane last night). I don't think Australia or England are on that level, so have to really look at the talent that goes overseas too. Australia literally only just got rid of that rule, and Giteau has been very good for them(they also have Drew Mitchell). But yeah, that really might be something under review once this world cup has finished.

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As a side note - Ashton is awful. Terrible winger, past it.

 

[OverGore]

Farrell did nothing bad in this game, though...? There are not many 20-26 year old 10s that I would take over him. He can only really be as good as his team, and the coaches game plans. England's forwards were destroyed this game, they were committing a lot of people into the breakdown just to stop Hooper/Pocock. I feel that with the right coaching staff who take on the right philosophy/ethics, he'll be very good.

Also, to the poster above, this "Cipriani treatment" did England no good... You need x-factor. Practically every other international coach would have chosen Cips, I guarantee it.

In regards to the whole "choosing players who play in your country or particular competition"... I mean, honestly, the only country that has so far done well with that has been New Zealand. Don't get me wrong, we have most definitely lost prime talent. Luke McAlister, Nick Evans etc. but it has never quite hindered our progression. Our grassroots rugby is terrific, so talent pops up all the time (oh man, you should have seen Akira Ioane last night). I don't think Australia or England are on that level, so have to really look at the talent that goes overseas too. Australia literally only just got rid of that rule, and Giteau has been very good for them(they also have Drew Mitchell). But yeah, that really might be something under review once this world cup has finished.

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As a side note - Ashton is awful. Terrible winger, past it.

Well, Farell took the yellow, imo fair yellow, and stupid foul at this moment of match. And yes, Newzealand keep up, but you let players go when they are a bit washed up for most, not all, but most for SR. Not using players in the best of their capacity cos they play 3 hours away in train, is monkeyretarded imo.
SH could always argue over timeline etc, plane travels, differnt championship calendars etc, but england cant say any of that for players playin in France!! this is so disrespectfull towards players and top14.

 

[Maverick1987]

Well, Farell took the yellow, imo fair yellow, and stupid foul at this moment of match. And yes, Newzealand keep up, but you let players go when they are a bit washed up for most, not all, but most for SR. Not using players in the best of their capacity cos they play 3 hours away in train, is monkeyretarded imo.
SH could always argue over timeline etc, plane travels, differnt championship calendars etc, but england cant say any of that for players playin in France!! this is so disrespectfull towards players and top14.

Disrespectful to players playing in France ???? They are the rules and that's that . Steffon Armitage even tried to play for France .....

 

[holls]

Mr Cipriani

You have to accept that after Mr Cipriani's ( not bitter in any way ) comments that not one of the Australia players would get in the England side, this was obviously going to fire up every single Aussie.

England deserved everything they got, I don't think we'll be seeing that advert of them prancing around as giants any time soon !!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell you what I might be allowed to buy some Lucazade now.

 

[Maverick1987]

You have to accept that after Mr Cipriani's ( not bitter in any way ) comments that not one of the Australia players would get in the England side, this was obviously going to fire up every single Aussie.

England deserved everything they got, I don't think we'll be seeing that advert of them prancing around as giants any time soon !!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell you what I might be allowed to buy some Lucazade now.

You signed up to the rugby forum to rub it in . You sad little Armchair rugby fan . Remember there's more to rugby than the six nations and the World Cup ....

 

[Peat]

Lads, if you want to bicker, take it to the match thread, this one is for analysis.

 

[McTallshort]

The analysis is we need a new coach, captain and centre partnership. Oh and decent set piece again. Plus a genuine openside (yes rats you were right all along) oh and pick players who have played union for a while and not lump it all on a bloke who's only been playing 8 months and get rid of Andy Farrell

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would keep:
1) Vunipola
2) George, Youngs (would have George ahead of him but he does bring a lot impact with him)
3) Cole (he will be pushed by Brookes and Thomas but he has experienced
4/5) Launchbury
6)
7)
8) Vunipola, Morgan
9) Youngs
10) Farrell/Ford (one or the other)
12)
13) Joesph
11/14) May/Watson
15)

Players who I think are to old now really:
Brown, Parling

Players who I wouldn't be upset to see again or unlucky with me
Robshaw @6, Lawes (TBH it was more at looking at others)

Blackballed
Marler, Webber, Wigglesworth, Wood, Barritt, Burgess (@12 but not @ 6),
Goode,

 

[ncurd]

On the bright side Barritt might be injured and we'll never have to see hm in an England shirt again!

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34437319

Just bloody well fire him! Not going through this nonsense twice in one year with sports teams.....we dropped out the group stages in a home world cup it's bloody humilating. Beaten by the better team sure I can accept that about last night but the week before was a disgrace.

 

[PacDuran]

Well, Farell took the yellow, imo fair yellow, and stupid foul at this moment of match. And yes, Newzealand keep up, but you let players go when they are a bit washed up for most, not all, but most for SR. Not using players in the best of their capacity cos they play 3 hours away in train, is monkeyretarded imo.
SH could always argue over timeline etc, plane travels, differnt championship calendars etc, but england cant say any of that for players playin in France!! this is so disrespectfull towards players and top14.

The referee bottled it in terms of not giving two yellows there. Burgess was an obvious dangerous high tackle (By this tournaments standards) and Farrell tackling the player without the ball and no arms shoulder charge, couldn't script it.

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I would keep:
1) Vunipola
2) George, Youngs (would have George ahead of him but he does bring a lot impact with him)
3) Cole (he will be pushed by Brookes and Thomas but he has experienced
4/5) Launchbury
6)
7)
8) Vunipola, Morgan
9) Youngs
10) Farrell/Ford (one or the other)
12)
13) Joesph
11/14) May/Watson
15)

Players who I think are to old now really:
Brown, Parling

Players who I wouldn't be upset to see again or unlucky with me
Robshaw @6, Lawes (TBH it was more at looking at others)

Blackballed
Marler, Webber, Wigglesworth, Wood, Barritt, Burgess (@12 but not @ 6),
Goode,

Burgess @ 6??!!! How many 6's do England produce?

How many high tackles would Burgess produce at 6 do you think? He's a walking yellow card man. A League convert bust if ever there was one!

 

[TobesHodges]

Balance in the right areas, let this side down, no gainline breakers in the backline, Tuilagi was needed, or subtle skills to get over the gainline - Slade needed..
Not enough balance in the backrow, not having an out and out 7 meant that teams never had to worry about England poaching at the breakdown and meant they only had to commit 2-3 players tops, Armitage would have given teams more to think about, even the wet dream that was kvesic could have been a good option, England isn't blessed with 7's sadley..

Although I'm a Farrell man, the amount of time we have stuck with Ford, it was always going to be managerial suicide not keeping some sort of parity in the backline in that position with all the other changes going on(to be fair, some forced, but some weren't).. Also 36 and Burrell will be chuckling a little deep down inside..
Even though I wanted Slade and Burgess.. I guess SL was dammed if he did and dammed if he didn't..

Interim coach for a season, then Baxter and Co in.. Maybe Wilko as Interim, that would be funny but highly unrealistic though.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The referee bottled it in terms of not giving two yellows there. Burgess was an obvious dangerous high tackle (By this tournaments standards) and Farrell tackling the player without the ball and no arms shoulder charge, couldn't script it.

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Burgess @ 6??!!! How many 6's do England produce?

How many high tackles would Burgess produce at 6 do you think? He's a walking yellow card man. A League convert bust if ever there was one!

Disagree he showed enough work at the breakdown for England @ 12 and he was looking very good @ 6 for Bath.

Didn't say he should be in but wouldn't be upset.