The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't think we should focus on 1 captain and instead focus on leaders. Try to get a group of 3 or so players who inspire those around them and let one of them be captain. Also our captain should not be someone who realistically cannot hold their position against opposition. Once Robshaw became captain, he became immune. No 7 was going to get into the squad regardless of how Robshaw performed and we also didn't have a backup. I agree with what others have said, the captain thing should not be a firm ***le for the entire world cup cycle. It should be the same as a position, you earn it and keep it through repeatedly doing well in the role. To think, Robshaw and Johnson were captains for a similar amount of time but who was really a leader?

 

[Willodell100]

I actually think Robshaw was a pretty good leader. Not as good as Johnson but then Johnson had a far superior team and a strong leadership group to back him. Culminating in 2003 when he and the team were at their peak with about x3 the amount of caps this 2015 edition has.

Robshaw didn't have any of those luxuries on the pitch and he had a relatively inexperienced coach and coaching team that clearly couldn't handle the pressure when it really counted. That must have had an affect on Robshaw & the players particularly during the week before the Wales and Australia defeats.

The fact they hadn't gone through the scenario of being three points down to Wales (and the consequence of a draw) tells me the attention to detail simply wasn't there like it would have been under Woodward's management back in 2003. Neil Back even talked about on Sky how each player knew what was required because they had gone over lots of different scenarios on the training paddock.

Just so you know I'm not defending his decision making but trying to put it into context.

I tend to agree with the majority in that we should pick the team first but inevitably whoever is coach is going to pick someone.

 

[TJAY]

It's OK to show some faith in your players and coaches, but not to the point where complacency can thrive, Lancaster guaranteed a long term contract before he has won anything, Robshaw guaranteed captaincy every game, RFU guaranteed full houses for all our internationals at home no matter how the team performs.

It's too easy for them to fail.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I dont know the English players enough to say who I would and wouldnt drop, but some general observations.
You need an openside that can win you ball. Perhaps that means shifting Robshaw to 6, or dropping him altogether. Whatever it is, something needs to change there.

Absolutely right. England won the world cup with Neil Back, thats 12 years ago, and yet not one English open side flanker has come along to match the talent or ability of Neil Back. Did somebody stop looking?
The Poms under Lancaster seem to have taken on the approach like the Boks that you don't need to play a sniffer (even though the Boks have an excellent one in Broussow) you can just play another mobile Ox, which works for the Boks but doesn't seem to be working for England.
Ben Morgan is big but he runs out of gas quickly and he is nowhere near as mobile or effective as a player like Albertz.
Haskell is the most destructive 6 they have and they don't play him.
I would play Haskell at 8, Wood at 7 for want of a real sniffer (Steffon Armitage where are you?) and Robshaw at 6 because he really lifts his game for his country.
Sadly, there is no Richard Hill in sight and like Neil Back, there hasn't been a player of Hill's calibre in the blindside flanker role for England since Hill's departure 12 years ago.

Further to the breakdown issue it struck me you were a ruck clearing lock away from being able to protect your ball well enough. I dont mean to talk up NZ players, but a player such as Retalick that is just a monster when it comes to the number of rucks he makes and the efficacy of his clear outs is a real key to the ABs game.

The Bok , PUMA and Aussie locks are also very accomplished in this regard. At least one of your locks needs a mean streak that enjoys smashing opposition bodies out of the way, a six and an 8 can't do it all the time on their own. A prop with mobility can add to this as well. More than the 6 and 8 must put their hands up to help clear the ruck QUICKLY or you'll struggle to penetrate and make the gain line.
Parling is a fine linnet element.
Lawes is great athlete around the field in open play but his ruck clearing is not yet great, his commitment is excellent but he does suffer knocks... his line out work is youthful but needs work and I'm not convinced about what he brings to the pack in the scrum and maul element.
Launchbury looks most likely as a ruck clearing candidate. Attwood lacks mobility.
Many of the English locking candidates are young and need to be given time to develop.

Your scrum needs work. I particularly watcher Marler today after all the hooplah before the game and he definitely angles in. I;m not sure how many penalties he conceded, but 5 in total at scrums, plus the scrum dominance OZ got, and at times Fiji for that matter, something needs to change there, or at least it needs to be a major work on.

Not such a big problem, England produces good props off some kind of magical production line, this can be resolved and Mr Marler is young and hugely strong, he can become much better under the right coaching, it would appear that man is not Rowntree.

No.8 is a disaster area for me that nobody seems to want to address in England. Ben Morgan is 'good enough', Billy Vunipola is 'good enough'. Neither of them has ever been good enough for more than 60 minutes, if that. They are both ponderous and lack mobility. Yes they are a handful for 40 minutes but after that they are living on borrowed time. Neither of them are a patch on what Dallaglio produced for England. Blimey, the Limeys had to bring in a 40 year old as a squad replacement at no.8, Easter is a flat track bully who can contribute admirably at English club level, but at International level he has been a dismal failure. Come on, is there not a younger no.8 of quality in ALL of England that can step up and fill this major role? I'd prefer Robshaw at 8 compared to the three above, at least Robshaw is mobile for a big fella.

I think you need to find a different 12. Things seemed to break down there a lot. Joeseph looks really impressive at 13 - perhaps there wasnt another option but I wouldnt have shifted him to the wing after half time. Perhaps Burgess is the answer at 12. He definitely has the size and off load game, I guess it comes down to whether he has the vision and passing game required to be a 12.

Burgess IS the answer but Burgess needs time to develop and the RWC was way too soon for him. The kid is talented, massive and thoroughly green around the gills (the lack of humility and dollop of bravado in the press before the Wales game was a dead give away) way too much was expected from an international debutante and he got caught up in the hype. England were caught between a rock and a hard place with injuries and Barritt being a solid defensive midfielder with no attacking kudos to speak of pleasantly was a fall back position that was never improved upon.
Once again, totally agree on Joseph at 13, he's a bit special and a great find for England. I enjoy watching him play.

Overall tactics look to be confused to me so perhaps a change in coach is needed too. I understand England want to play a more attacking game. I'm not sure if that is the right option or not for them though? If they want to, it can only work if that is the type of rugby all their players are used to at lower levels. Otherwise you go from club forward dominated stuff, to international rugby where players are expected to change their game completely. If thats the case I dont think it will ever work. I'm not saying this is happening - more a question I guess. There have been specific occasions during the tournament where I've felt player decision making looks confused - they look to be battling between their natural tight forward dominated territorial rugby and perhaps the more attacking rugby they are told/want to actually play.

Captain; serious issue. Robshaw has played like a captain for England. He has really lifted himself when he puts on the England jersey, and thats good, but it's not enough. A captain needs to know about scenarios in ADVANCE. Taking the kick was the obvious choice. There was time to take the kick and get the ball back from either restart whether it went over (Owen Farrell was on fire, yes it was out wide but it was on the 22 and your kicker is expected to get those... well maybe not Dan Carter against Georgia but...) or became a drop out return, another passage of play would have been available... these scenarios should be drilled into the Captain. This team is sorely lacking in experience and these are the tribulations you learn from to come back stronger in the future. Robs haw was lacking in tactical nous regarding outcome management. That was partly his fault and partly Lancaster as well. Robshaw is the one who had to make the decisions on the pitch.
Was there a better option in the team?

England won the RWC with a magnificent pack and a great kicker. It worked. They do it well and it is NOT an easy thing to achieve. Stylistically it's about grinding wins out and the modern game doesn't lend itself to that as readily s it did 12 years ago. The Super XV and the high success rate of the big three southern hemisphere teams against their northern counterparts will tell us thats the case. A faster more mobile running and kicking game is what is carrying the day. If England want to follow that trend they need to see it coming through in their club rugby.
Lancaster is out of ideas. He is a man of dignity and desire but he needed a completely different set of backroom staff.
Look at Aussie, they got in a new Argentinian scrummaging coach and Bang Whallop they are back in the hunt straight away.
I felt that Lancasters call to leave Danny Cipriani out of the England RWC squad meant you lost international experience in the southern hemisphere along with an 'in form' player who can run, tackle and kick, he can play 10, 12 and fullback, he has gas. It was utter madness leaving him out of the squad for a one dimensional fullback in Goode. HE was the player who should have come on against Wales and at 12 not 10 where Farrell had been having a blinder.

Andy Farrell is worthless and far passed his use by date.
Catt has to bear the brunt of ongoing poor performances and Rowntree has not covered himself in any glory after his pack was dominated by the Aussie tight five.
All out and get some brains in there.
I hear that Clive Woodward wants to go upstairs, he wants Rob Andrew's job and I think thats a good call, Rob has to go as well.

It has always been my belief that this England team is going to hit it's straps at the next RWC, this one came too early for them as they are a young team.

One last thing - I listened quite carefuly to Wilkinson both during and after the game on the coverage I was streaming. 2 things struck me (1) England need to get him (more) involved in the team somehow. Does he coach rugby at any level over there? He looks like he could be a fantastic member of a coaching staff and (2) his comments were pretty on to it I thought. He was essentially calling for a bit of calm after the loss and not too much change. My interpretation was that given the changes in England rugby over recent times he was calling for more time to get that right. A complete back flip from where you guys are at now in terms of personnel could be more detrimental than not. Interested on thoughts of JW!

Johnny Wilkinson is the pundit 'find' of the RWC. Is there nothing the man cannot do well. He was jaw droppingly accurate in his kicking career, and now he exhibits the same qualities in his commentary.
Involved in the England set up?
Maybe.
More tv work?
Definitely.

 

[ncurd]

I think it's fair to say England haven't unearthed a second holy trinity backrow (Back, Hill & Dallaglio) but we need to remember those three players were exceptional and all deserved England captain material. We can sit there bemoan this that and the other all we like but not being able to find three perfectly balanced world class back row players to play at the same time as each other? C'mon we were pretty lucky to have it once.

TheJonesBoy shut up seriously just shut it about Burgess at center he's not going to ever play at center again in his entire Rugby Union career. I know you like the player but he's a 6 shall always be a 6 and anybody and I mean anybody apart form Farrell & Lancaster who has seen him play there agrees. He's not the answer and never was ,he folly of him playing is partially how we screwed up.

 

[Peat]

Don't know if the 72 players thing was posted in here or another thread, but I'm posting it here as I think it'll be of some interest to others - I counted up all the players used by Hansen to try and work out if 72 was a mad number. Was going to do minutes like the Telegraph thing, but finding reliable sources was difficult (until I realised wiki had my back but was half-way through; might redo at some point).

Going by primary position, the NZedders have used the following

Full back: Dagg, B Smith (2)
Winger: Guildford, Savea, Jane, Gear, Ranger, Piutau, Halai, Naholo, Milner-Skudder (9)
Centres: C Smith, S Williams, Nonu, Ellison, Crotty, Saili, Fekitoa (7)
Fly-halves: Carter, Cruden, Barrett, Taylor, Slade, Sopoaga (6)
Scrum-halves: A Smith, Weepu, Kerr-Barlow, Perenara, Pulu, Ellis (6)
Props: Woodcock, O Franks, B Franks, Faumina, Afeaki, Toomaga-Allen, Moody, Laulala (8)
Hookers: Hore, Elliot, Mealamu, Coles, Harris, Parsons, Taylor (7)
Locks: Retallick, S Whitelock, A Williams, Romano, Thrush, Bird, Tuipulotu, Broadhurst (8)
Back rows: Vito, McCaw, Read, Cane, Messam, Thomson, Luatua, Todd, L Whitelock, Kaino (10)

That is 63 over the same period. In comparison, 72 seems a bit extravagant, but not outrageously so. One team's played one more game, but I forget which it is. Roughly comparable - new coaches - although NZ started with a more settled team. South Africa might be a better comparison and I'll hit that up too.

Comparing it

We've used 4 full-backs - although only 3 of them seriously - not too bad. 10 Wingers, seems normal, high burn-out position. 10 centres - well, they have a rock solid all time great partnership, stands to reason we've tried more, but shows the wobble. 7 fly-halves to their 6. 4 scrum-halves to their 6 - stable position for us, a lot of those AB guys have blown in and out. 10 props - we've probably used too many here, although both sides have a few guys with most the game time, and a few with barely any. 7 locks - we're solid here, good work guys. 12 back rows - plenty of experimentation, and yet no back up to Robshaw!

In short - probably has been a bit too much chopping and changing. Also, we've had a lot of squad members who never played a game, not sure the ABs would say the same.

Hansen's first couple of matches, never to be seen again. I consider myself a sad nerdy git when it comes to rugby but some of those guys I'd pretty much never heard before, Pulu and some of the hookers.

South Africa

FB: Kirchner, Aplon, Le Roux (3)
W: Pietersen, Habana, Oliver, Mvovo, Basson, Hendricks (6)
C: de Villiers, F Steyn, Engelbrecht, Taute, de Jongh, Serfontein, Fourie, De Allende, Kriel, Mapoe (10)
FH: M Steyn, Lambie, Goosen, Jantjies, Pollard, Boshoff (6)
SH: Hougaard, Pienaar, Vermaak, Van Zyl, Du Preez, Reinach (6)
P: Mtawarira, J du Plessis, Oosthuizen, W Kruger, Cilliers, Greyling, Steenkamp, H van der Merwe, Van Der Linde, Nyakane, Malherbe, Adriaanse, M van der Merwe, Redelinghuys, Koch (16)
H: B du Plessis, Strauss, Liebenberg, Brits, Ralepelle (5)
L: Etzebeth, J Kruger, Fl van der Merwe, Bekker, Du Toit, Fr van der Merwe, Botha, Matfield, De Jager, Lewies (10)
BR: Coetzee, Alberts, Spies, Daniel, Potgieter, Kankowski, Vermeulen, Louw, Botha, Kolisi, Burger, Mohoje, Smith, Whitely, Carr, Brussow (16)

78. Lancaster's 72 looks ok in comparison to that... although they're the only other 'great power' near to us in the underperforming stakes, so maybe not that comforting. Wtf went on with their back row and props I'd love to know.

Italy and France are the only other countries that appointed a new coach after 2012 and kept them to the World Cup I think. Might do them for comparison's sake. Might go mad and do all of them.

I went mad.

Fre
Medard, Poitrenaud, Dulin, Spedding (4)
Clerc, Malzieu, Palisson, Buttin, Huget, Fall, Plante, Andreu, Guitoune, Bonneval, Le Bourhis, Thomas, Nakaitaci (13)
Rougerie, Fofana, Mermoz, Fritz, Bastareud, Fickou, Lamerat, Dumoulin (8)
Trinh-Duc, Beauxis, Michalak, Lopez, Tales, Plisson (6)
Yachvili, Parra, Dupuy, Machenaud, Doussain, Pelissie, Tillous-Borde, Kockott (8)
Debaty, Mas, Poux, Attoub, Watremez, Domingo, Forestier, Ducalon, Kotze, Ben Arous, Slimani, Menini, Chiocci, Atonio (14)
Servat, Szarzewski, Tolofua, Kayser, Guirado, Mach (6)
Pape, Nallet, Maestri, Pierre, Taofifenua, Samson, Suta, Vahaamahina, Flanquart (10)
Dusautoir, Bonnaire, Picamoles, Harinordoquy, Lapandry, Lauret, Ouedraogo, Chouly, Nyanga, Claassen, Le Roux, Burban, Ollivon, Goujon (14)

83 players

Ita
Masi, Benettin (2)
Venditti, McLean, Bergamasco, Toniolatti, Iannone, Sarto, Esposito, Bisegni, Visentin (9)
Sgarbi, Benevenuti, Canale, Morisi, Quartaroli, Pratichetti, Garcia, Campagnaro, Bacchin (9)
Burton, Bocchino, Orquera, Di Bernardo, Allan, Haimona, Canna (7)
Gori, Botes, Semenzato, Tebaldi, Chillon, Palazzani, Violi (7)
Lo Cicero, Castrogiovanni, Cittadini, Rizzo, Staibano, Romano, De Marchi, Aguero, De Marchi, Chistolini (10)
Ghiraldini, D'Apice, Ongaro, Giazzon, Festuccia, Manici (6)
Van Zyl, Geldenhuys, Bortolami, Pavanello, Furno, Fuser, Minto, Bernabo, Cedaro, Biagi (10)
Zanni, Barbieri, Parisse, Favaro, Bergamasco, Vosawai, Derbyshire, Vunisa, Barbini (9)

69

Sco
R Lamont, Hogg, T Brown, Tonks, Murchie (4)
Jones, Evans, Curthbert, Ansbro, Visser, Seymour, Maitland, Fife, Hughes, Hoyland (10)
S Lamont, De Luca, Morrison, Scott, Dunbar, Horne, Taylor, Bennett (8)
Parks, Weir, Jackson, Heathcote, Russell (5)
Cusiter, Blair, Laidlaw, Pyrgos, Lawson, Hart, Hidalgo-Clyne (7)
Jacobsen, Murray, Cross, Kalman, Welsh, Grant, Traynor, Low, Dickinson, Allan, Reid, Cusack, Nel (13)
Ford, Lawson, Hall, MacArthur, Lawrie, F Brown, Bryce, McInally (8)
R Gray, Hamilton, Kellock, Ryder, Gilchrist, Swinson, J Gray, Toolis (8)
Strokosch, Rennie, Denton, Barclay, Vernon, Harley, K Brown, Beattie, Wilson, Low, Fusaro, Cowan, Ashe, Holmes, Watson, Blake, Hardie (17)

80

Ire
R Kearney, Hurley, Jones (3)
Trimble, Bowe, D Kearney, Zebo, Gilroy, Fitzgerald (6)
D'Arcy, McFadden, Earls, O'Driscoll, Cave, Wallace, Marshall, Henshaw, Olding, Downey, Reid, Payne (12)
Sexton, O'Gara, Jackson, Madigan, Keatley (5)
Reddan, Murray, O'Leary, Marshall, Boss, Marmion (6)
Healy, Ross, Court, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Kilcoyne, Bent, Archer, Hagan, Moore, Ah You, J Cronin, White, Furlong (14)
Best, S Cronin, Strauss, Sherry, Varley, Herring (6)
O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Ryan, McCarthy, Tuohy, Toner, Foley (7)
Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, O'Mahony, Jennings, McLaughlin, Henry, Henderson, Muldoon, O'Donnell, Ruddock, Murphy, Diack, Ryan, Copeland, Conan (16)

75

Wal
Halfpenny, L Williams, Morgan (3)
Cuthbert, North, Robinson, Howells, Prydie, Amos, Walker (7)
Roberts, J Davies, S Williams, Beck, O Williams, Spratt, Allen, T Morgan (8)
Priestland, Hook, S Jones, Biggar, Patchell, Anscombe (6)
Phillips, L Williams, Webb, Knoyle, R Williams, G Davies (6)
Gill, A Jones, James, Jenkins, Jarvis, Bevington, Andrews, Mitchell, Lee, Smith, R Evans, R Jones, Francis (13)
Bennett, Owens, Hibbard, Rees, Phillips, Baldwin, Dacey (7)
I Evans, B Davies, Reed, AW Jones, Charteris, Coombs, Kohn, Ball, Day (9)
R Jones, Warburton, Faletau, Powell, Tipuric, Lydiate, A Shingler, Turnbull, McCusker, King, Pretorius, Baker, Navidi, Moriarty (14)

73

Aus
Beale, Morahan, Folau, Mogg (4)
Ashley-Cooper, Ioane, Mitchell, Shipperley, Cummins, Tomane, Vuna, Feauai-Sautia, Betham, Speight, Naiyaravoro (11)
Fainga'a, Horne, McCabe, Tapuai, Lealiifano, Kuridrani, Giteau (7)
Barnes, Cooper, Harris, O'Connor, Toomua, Foley (6)
Genia, Phipps, Sheehan, White, McKibbin (5)
Robinson, Kepu, Slipper, Alexander, Palmer, Ryan, Sio, Cowan, Weeks, Faulkner, Holmes, Smith (12)
Polota-Nau, Moore, Fainga'a, Hanson, Charles, Mann-Rea (6)
Timani, Sharpe, Simmons, Douglas, Horwill, Carter, Jones, Skelton, Mumm (9)
Dennis, Pocock, Higginbotham, Samo, Hooper, Gill, Palu, Mowen, Smith, McCalman, McMeniman, Fardy, Hodgson, Schatz, McMahon (15)

75

Arg
Amorosino, Tuculet, Miralles, Moyano (4)
Camacho, H Agulla, Imhoff, B Agulla, Gosio, Montero, Barrea, Carrio, Cordero (9)
Fernandez, Bosch, Rodriguez, Ascarate, Contepomi, Tiesi, Orlando, De La Fuente, Moroni, Socino (10)
Hernandez, Sanchez, Mieres, Urdapilleta, Madero, Rojas, Iglesias (7)
Vergallo, Landajo, Cubelli (3)
Roncero, Figallo, Ayerza, Orlandi, Kodela, Tetaz, Henn, Chaparro, Gomez, Lobo, Bustos, Roan, Diaz, Herrera, Paz, Chaparro, Botta (17)
Guinazu, Postiglioni, Creevy, Bordoy, Guidone, Veiga, Iglesias, Cortese, Montoya (9)
Carizza, Albacete, Vallejos, Lozada, Guzman, Macome, Bruno, Galarza, Cinalli, Lavanini, Alemano, Guillemain, Ponce, Pagadizabal (14)
Cabello, Galindo, Lobbe, Leonardi, Senatore, Leguizamon, Fessia, De La Vega, Baez, Matera, Desio, De Chazal, Isa, Lezana (14)

87

The average number of test players used by a Tier 1 nation over the last cycle was 75.5 (or 75.6 if you ignore highest and lowest)

72 sounds nuts, but it's not.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In terms of the captaincy, Lancaster picked a man in his own image in Robshaw. Wasn't inundated with great options mind, but a change is clearly due.

First criterion, must be guaranteed a place in the team. So that's Launch, Youngs possibly, JJ and the back 3. Which boils down to Youngs and Launch for me. Youngs is very good but he's not destined for quite the same heights as Launch and I do like my skip to be a forward. So Launch it is as an interim measure.

But if Burgess gets the hang of this 6 lark, do not be surprised to see him as captain in 2019. He just seems to have that natural aura and presence.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I went mad.

Fre
Medard, Poitrenaud, Dulin, Spedding (4)
Clerc, Malzieu, Palisson, Buttin, Huget, Fall, Plante, Andreu, Guitoune, Bonneval, Le Bourhis, Thomas, Nakaitaci (13)
Rougerie, Fofana, Mermoz, Fritz, Bastareud, Fickou, Lamerat, Dumoulin (8)
Trinh-Duc, Beauxis, Michalak, Lopez, Tales, Plisson (6)
Yachvili, Parra, Dupuy, Machenaud, Doussain, Pelissie, Tillous-Borde, Kockott (8)
Debaty, Mas, Poux, Attoub, Watremez, Domingo, Forestier, Ducalon, Kotze, Ben Arous, Slimani, Menini, Chiocci, Atonio (14)
Servat, Szarzewski, Tolofua, Kayser, Guirado, Mach (6)
Pape, Nallet, Maestri, Pierre, Taofifenua, Samson, Suta, Vahaamahina, Flanquart (10)
Dusautoir, Bonnaire, Picamoles, Harinordoquy, Lapandry, Lauret, Ouedraogo, Chouly, Nyanga, Claassen, Le Roux, Burban, Ollivon, Goujon (14)

83 players

Ita
Masi, Benettin (2)
Venditti, McLean, Bergamasco, Toniolatti, Iannone, Sarto, Esposito, Bisegni, Visentin (9)
Sgarbi, Benevenuti, Canale, Morisi, Quartaroli, Pratichetti, Garcia, Campagnaro, Bacchin (9)
Burton, Bocchino, Orquera, Di Bernardo, Allan, Haimona, Canna (7)
Gori, Botes, Semenzato, Tebaldi, Chillon, Palazzani, Violi (7)
Lo Cicero, Castrogiovanni, Cittadini, Rizzo, Staibano, Romano, De Marchi, Aguero, De Marchi, Chistolini (10)
Ghiraldini, D'Apice, Ongaro, Giazzon, Festuccia, Manici (6)
Van Zyl, Geldenhuys, Bortolami, Pavanello, Furno, Fuser, Minto, Bernabo, Cedaro, Biagi (10)
Zanni, Barbieri, Parisse, Favaro, Bergamasco, Vosawai, Derbyshire, Vunisa, Barbini (9)

69

Sco
R Lamont, Hogg, T Brown, Tonks, Murchie (4)
Jones, Evans, Curthbert, Ansbro, Visser, Seymour, Maitland, Fife, Hughes, Hoyland (10)
S Lamont, De Luca, Morrison, Scott, Dunbar, Horne, Taylor, Bennett (8)
Parks, Weir, Jackson, Heathcote, Russell (5)
Cusiter, Blair, Laidlaw, Pyrgos, Lawson, Hart, Hidalgo-Clyne (7)
Jacobsen, Murray, Cross, Kalman, Welsh, Grant, Traynor, Low, Dickinson, Allan, Reid, Cusack, Nel (13)
Ford, Lawson, Hall, MacArthur, Lawrie, F Brown, Bryce, McInally (8)
R Gray, Hamilton, Kellock, Ryder, Gilchrist, Swinson, J Gray, Toolis (8)
Strokosch, Rennie, Denton, Barclay, Vernon, Harley, K Brown, Beattie, Wilson, Low, Fusaro, Cowan, Ashe, Holmes, Watson, Blake, Hardie (17)

80

Ire
R Kearney, Hurley, Jones (3)
Trimble, Bowe, D Kearney, Zebo, Gilroy, Fitzgerald (6)
D'Arcy, McFadden, Earls, O'Driscoll, Cave, Wallace, Marshall, Henshaw, Olding, Downey, Reid, Payne (12)
Sexton, O'Gara, Jackson, Madigan, Keatley (5)
Reddan, Murray, O'Leary, Marshall, Boss, Marmion (6)
Healy, Ross, Court, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Kilcoyne, Bent, Archer, Hagan, Moore, Ah You, J Cronin, White, Furlong (14)
Best, S Cronin, Strauss, Sherry, Varley, Herring (6)
O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Ryan, McCarthy, Tuohy, Toner, Foley (7)
Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, O'Mahony, Jennings, McLaughlin, Henry, Henderson, Muldoon, O'Donnell, Ruddock, Murphy, Diack, Ryan, Copeland, Conan (16)

75

Wal
Halfpenny, L Williams, Morgan (3)
Cuthbert, North, Robinson, Howells, Prydie, Amos, Walker (7)
Roberts, J Davies, S Williams, Beck, O Williams, Spratt, Allen, T Morgan (8)
Priestland, Hook, S Jones, Biggar, Patchell, Anscombe (6)
Phillips, L Williams, Webb, Knoyle, R Williams, G Davies (6)
Gill, A Jones, James, Jenkins, Jarvis, Bevington, Andrews, Mitchell, Lee, Smith, R Evans, R Jones, Francis (13)
Bennett, Owens, Hibbard, Rees, Phillips, Baldwin, Dacey (7)
I Evans, B Davies, Reed, AW Jones, Charteris, Coombs, Kohn, Ball, Day (9)
R Jones, Warburton, Faletau, Powell, Tipuric, Lydiate, A Shingler, Turnbull, McCusker, King, Pretorius, Baker, Navidi, Moriarty (14)

73

Aus
Beale, Morahan, Folau, Mogg (4)
Ashley-Cooper, Ioane, Mitchell, Shipperley, Cummins, Tomane, Vuna, Feauai-Sautia, Betham, Speight, Naiyaravoro (11)
Fainga'a, Horne, McCabe, Tapuai, Lealiifano, Kuridrani, Giteau (7)
Barnes, Cooper, Harris, O'Connor, Toomua, Foley (6)
Genia, Phipps, Sheehan, White, McKibbin (5)
Robinson, Kepu, Slipper, Alexander, Palmer, Ryan, Sio, Cowan, Weeks, Faulkner, Holmes, Smith (12)
Polota-Nau, Moore, Fainga'a, Hanson, Charles, Mann-Rea (6)
Timani, Sharpe, Simmons, Douglas, Horwill, Carter, Jones, Skelton, Mumm (9)
Dennis, Pocock, Higginbotham, Samo, Hooper, Gill, Palu, Mowen, Smith, McCalman, McMeniman, Fardy, Hodgson, Schatz, McMahon (15)

75

Arg
Amorosino, Tuculet, Miralles, Moyano (4)
Camacho, H Agulla, Imhoff, B Agulla, Gosio, Montero, Barrea, Carrio, Cordero (9)
Fernandez, Bosch, Rodriguez, Ascarate, Contepomi, Tiesi, Orlando, De La Fuente, Moroni, Socino (10)
Hernandez, Sanchez, Mieres, Urdapilleta, Madero, Rojas, Iglesias (7)
Vergallo, Landajo, Cubelli (3)
Roncero, Figallo, Ayerza, Orlandi, Kodela, Tetaz, Henn, Chaparro, Gomez, Lobo, Bustos, Roan, Diaz, Herrera, Paz, Chaparro, Botta (17)
Guinazu, Postiglioni, Creevy, Bordoy, Guidone, Veiga, Iglesias, Cortese, Montoya (9)
Carizza, Albacete, Vallejos, Lozada, Guzman, Macome, Bruno, Galarza, Cinalli, Lavanini, Alemano, Guillemain, Ponce, Pagadizabal (14)
Cabello, Galindo, Lobbe, Leonardi, Senatore, Leguizamon, Fessia, De La Vega, Baez, Matera, Desio, De Chazal, Isa, Lezana (14)

87

The average number of test players used by a Tier 1 nation over the last cycle was 75.5 (or 75.6 if you ignore highest and lowest)

72 sounds nuts, but it's not.

I think those numbers would increase if you consider some players that went on tour but didn't get capped. I know South Africa does that a lot. I think the last 2 players that went on tour without getting capped was Jaco Kriel and Louis Schreuder.

 

[Peat]

I think those numbers would increase if you consider some players that went on tour but didn't get capped. I know South Africa does that a lot. I think the last 2 players that went on tour without getting capped was Jaco Kriel and Louis Schreuder.

They would but I'm not. I'm only counting players capped in matches against test opposition - No Baabaas, no Mid-weekers, no tackle bag holders. May have accidentally slipped in a few guys on the bench who never got on by accident though. Test experience is what I'm measuring, just so everyone knows.

I might go back some day as a different project and measure how many got a hundred minutes and less, how many got five hundred minutes and less, and so on though.

 

[Wimero]

I really felt for Sam Burgess.Clearly he's not an international standard centre.I blame the coaching staff for thrusting him into that position.He gave his all to the best of his ability.
It didn't take Bath long to figure out that his best position is not going to be in midfield.I do think he could well become an outstanding 6 in time though.

 

[ncurd]

It didn't take Bath long to figure out that his best position is not going to be in midfield.

I don't think it was ever part of the long term plan for us. I think before he even joined up with the squad Ford was saying he sees him as a back row player. There were only two reasons he played center for us first was to give him real union game time whilst not having to learn the finer details of back row play, second was because other centers were away on international duty.

 

[Wimero]

That makes sense.So I wonder why the England coaching team didn't talk it through with the guys at Bath.Maybe they did and then chose to ignore what they'd been told.I can't help thinking that with the big money the RFU had laid out to get Sam they had made it clear he had to be included somewhere in the England set up.

 

[tsof]

That makes sense.So I wonder why the England coaching team didn't talk it through with the guys at Bath.Maybe they did and then chose to ignore what they'd been told.I can't help thinking that with the big money the RFU had laid out to get Sam they had made it clear he had to be included somewhere in the England set up.

Pretty sure the RFU didn't end up putting any money into the deal. Quite rightly the other PR clubs kicked up a fuss. As ncurd says, I don't think it was ever in our plans for him to become a centre for us - which makes Lancaster's assertions of having to earn the shirt etc all the more laughable.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think Tom Rees would have been the answer TBH.

It's was a massive shame that he had to retire.

 

[ncurd]

That makes sense.So I wonder why the England coaching team didn't talk it through with the guys at Bath.Maybe they did and then chose to ignore what they'd been told.I can't help thinking that with the big money the RFU had laid out to get Sam they had made it clear he had to be included somewhere in the England set up.

Common misconception the RFU paid none of the money for Big Sam, Bruce Craig did. This meant Bath was able to completely call the shots when it came to training and development.

There are rumours Burgess got assurances from Lancaster about his inclusion in the squad before joining Bath but they are merely rumours.

The reality though is Lancaster & Farrell could of watched one of the umpteen games Burgess played for Bath on BT Sport like the rest of us and been able to tell what he was capable of doing. Considering the amount of Bath players in the extended and actual squad they must of been talking, sorry we can only chalk this up to pure incompetency.

 

[Willodell100]

That makes sense.So I wonder why the England coaching team didn't talk it through with the guys at Bath.Maybe they did and then chose to ignore what they'd been told.I can't help thinking that with the big money the RFU had laid out to get Sam they had made it clear he had to be included somewhere in the England set up.

The RFU didn't put any money towards the deal between the Rabbitohs and Bath.

However I am sure they quite liked the idea such a big world star from league playing in the White shirt. Great PR for the RFU and it must have drawn a slightly new audience which they can't be unhappy about.

On the player himself I hope the rumours are true and he wants to give this game a real crack as he comes across as a really down to earth guy that has some serious skills to offer and a whole lot of potential that could benefit Bath and England's backrow for quite a few years to come. When he does start to get the finer details he should flourish.

 

[Tony Manx]

I went mad.

Fre
Medard, Poitrenaud, Dulin, Spedding (4)
Clerc, Malzieu, Palisson, Buttin, Huget, Fall, Plante, Andreu, Guitoune, Bonneval, Le Bourhis, Thomas, Nakaitaci (13)
Rougerie, Fofana, Mermoz, Fritz, Bastareud, Fickou, Lamerat, Dumoulin (8)
Trinh-Duc, Beauxis, Michalak, Lopez, Tales, Plisson (6)
Yachvili, Parra, Dupuy, Machenaud, Doussain, Pelissie, Tillous-Borde, Kockott (8)
Debaty, Mas, Poux, Attoub, Watremez, Domingo, Forestier, Ducalon, Kotze, Ben Arous, Slimani, Menini, Chiocci, Atonio (14)
Servat, Szarzewski, Tolofua, Kayser, Guirado, Mach (6)
Pape, Nallet, Maestri, Pierre, Taofifenua, Samson, Suta, Vahaamahina, Flanquart (10)
Dusautoir, Bonnaire, Picamoles, Harinordoquy, Lapandry, Lauret, Ouedraogo, Chouly, Nyanga, Claassen, Le Roux, Burban, Ollivon, Goujon (14)

83 players

Ita
Masi, Benettin (2)
Venditti, McLean, Bergamasco, Toniolatti, Iannone, Sarto, Esposito, Bisegni, Visentin (9)
Sgarbi, Benevenuti, Canale, Morisi, Quartaroli, Pratichetti, Garcia, Campagnaro, Bacchin (9)
Burton, Bocchino, Orquera, Di Bernardo, Allan, Haimona, Canna (7)
Gori, Botes, Semenzato, Tebaldi, Chillon, Palazzani, Violi (7)
Lo Cicero, Castrogiovanni, Cittadini, Rizzo, Staibano, Romano, De Marchi, Aguero, De Marchi, Chistolini (10)
Ghiraldini, D'Apice, Ongaro, Giazzon, Festuccia, Manici (6)
Van Zyl, Geldenhuys, Bortolami, Pavanello, Furno, Fuser, Minto, Bernabo, Cedaro, Biagi (10)
Zanni, Barbieri, Parisse, Favaro, Bergamasco, Vosawai, Derbyshire, Vunisa, Barbini (9)

69

Sco
R Lamont, Hogg, T Brown, Tonks, Murchie (4)
Jones, Evans, Curthbert, Ansbro, Visser, Seymour, Maitland, Fife, Hughes, Hoyland (10)
S Lamont, De Luca, Morrison, Scott, Dunbar, Horne, Taylor, Bennett (8)
Parks, Weir, Jackson, Heathcote, Russell (5)
Cusiter, Blair, Laidlaw, Pyrgos, Lawson, Hart, Hidalgo-Clyne (7)
Jacobsen, Murray, Cross, Kalman, Welsh, Grant, Traynor, Low, Dickinson, Allan, Reid, Cusack, Nel (13)
Ford, Lawson, Hall, MacArthur, Lawrie, F Brown, Bryce, McInally (8)
R Gray, Hamilton, Kellock, Ryder, Gilchrist, Swinson, J Gray, Toolis (8)
Strokosch, Rennie, Denton, Barclay, Vernon, Harley, K Brown, Beattie, Wilson, Low, Fusaro, Cowan, Ashe, Holmes, Watson, Blake, Hardie (17)

80

Ire
R Kearney, Hurley, Jones (3)
Trimble, Bowe, D Kearney, Zebo, Gilroy, Fitzgerald (6)
D'Arcy, McFadden, Earls, O'Driscoll, Cave, Wallace, Marshall, Henshaw, Olding, Downey, Reid, Payne (12)
Sexton, O'Gara, Jackson, Madigan, Keatley (5)
Reddan, Murray, O'Leary, Marshall, Boss, Marmion (6)
Healy, Ross, Court, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Kilcoyne, Bent, Archer, Hagan, Moore, Ah You, J Cronin, White, Furlong (14)
Best, S Cronin, Strauss, Sherry, Varley, Herring (6)
O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Ryan, McCarthy, Tuohy, Toner, Foley (7)
Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, O'Mahony, Jennings, McLaughlin, Henry, Henderson, Muldoon, O'Donnell, Ruddock, Murphy, Diack, Ryan, Copeland, Conan (16)

75

Wal
Halfpenny, L Williams, Morgan (3)
Cuthbert, North, Robinson, Howells, Prydie, Amos, Walker (7)
Roberts, J Davies, S Williams, Beck, O Williams, Spratt, Allen, T Morgan (8)
Priestland, Hook, S Jones, Biggar, Patchell, Anscombe (6)
Phillips, L Williams, Webb, Knoyle, R Williams, G Davies (6)
Gill, A Jones, James, Jenkins, Jarvis, Bevington, Andrews, Mitchell, Lee, Smith, R Evans, R Jones, Francis (13)
Bennett, Owens, Hibbard, Rees, Phillips, Baldwin, Dacey (7)
I Evans, B Davies, Reed, AW Jones, Charteris, Coombs, Kohn, Ball, Day (9)
R Jones, Warburton, Faletau, Powell, Tipuric, Lydiate, A Shingler, Turnbull, McCusker, King, Pretorius, Baker, Navidi, Moriarty (14)

73

Aus
Beale, Morahan, Folau, Mogg (4)
Ashley-Cooper, Ioane, Mitchell, Shipperley, Cummins, Tomane, Vuna, Feauai-Sautia, Betham, Speight, Naiyaravoro (11)
Fainga'a, Horne, McCabe, Tapuai, Lealiifano, Kuridrani, Giteau (7)
Barnes, Cooper, Harris, O'Connor, Toomua, Foley (6)
Genia, Phipps, Sheehan, White, McKibbin (5)
Robinson, Kepu, Slipper, Alexander, Palmer, Ryan, Sio, Cowan, Weeks, Faulkner, Holmes, Smith (12)
Polota-Nau, Moore, Fainga'a, Hanson, Charles, Mann-Rea (6)
Timani, Sharpe, Simmons, Douglas, Horwill, Carter, Jones, Skelton, Mumm (9)
Dennis, Pocock, Higginbotham, Samo, Hooper, Gill, Palu, Mowen, Smith, McCalman, McMeniman, Fardy, Hodgson, Schatz, McMahon (15)

75

Arg
Amorosino, Tuculet, Miralles, Moyano (4)
Camacho, H Agulla, Imhoff, B Agulla, Gosio, Montero, Barrea, Carrio, Cordero (9)
Fernandez, Bosch, Rodriguez, Ascarate, Contepomi, Tiesi, Orlando, De La Fuente, Moroni, Socino (10)
Hernandez, Sanchez, Mieres, Urdapilleta, Madero, Rojas, Iglesias (7)
Vergallo, Landajo, Cubelli (3)
Roncero, Figallo, Ayerza, Orlandi, Kodela, Tetaz, Henn, Chaparro, Gomez, Lobo, Bustos, Roan, Diaz, Herrera, Paz, Chaparro, Botta (17)
Guinazu, Postiglioni, Creevy, Bordoy, Guidone, Veiga, Iglesias, Cortese, Montoya (9)
Carizza, Albacete, Vallejos, Lozada, Guzman, Macome, Bruno, Galarza, Cinalli, Lavanini, Alemano, Guillemain, Ponce, Pagadizabal (14)
Cabello, Galindo, Lobbe, Leonardi, Senatore, Leguizamon, Fessia, De La Vega, Baez, Matera, Desio, De Chazal, Isa, Lezana (14)

87

The average number of test players used by a Tier 1 nation over the last cycle was 75.5 (or 75.6 if you ignore highest and lowest)

72 sounds nuts, but it's not.

Jees that must have taken some work......respect!!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

As far as I'm aware the only thing the RFU dos to lure Burgess is the World Cup.

 

[valley commando]

I actually think Robshaw was a pretty good leader. Not as good as Johnson but then Johnson had a far superior team and a strong leadership group to back him. Culminating in 2003 when he and the team were at their peak with about x3 the amount of caps this 2015 edition has.

Robshaw didn't have any of those luxuries on the pitch and he had a relatively inexperienced coach and coaching team that clearly couldn't handle the pressure when it really counted. That must have had an affect on Robshaw & the players particularly during the week before the Wales and Australia defeats.

The fact they hadn't gone through the scenario of being three points down to Wales (and the consequence of a draw) tells me the attention to detail simply wasn't there like it would have been under Woodward's management back in 2003. Neil Back even talked about on Sky how each player knew what was required because they had gone over lots of different scenarios on the training paddock.

Just so you know I'm not defending his decision making but trying to put it into context.

I tend to agree with the majority in that we should pick the team first but inevitably whoever is coach is going to pick someone.

I think Robshaw was a great choice of captain if you are the opposition, first job of an openside is to get to the breakdown and get your hands on that ball, either win a penalty or slow their ball down, non of which Robshaw does on a regular basis, he is to slow to wear 7 doesn't carry enough to be a blindside, so as a player is the 1st name an opposition coach would like to see on a team sheet.
As a captain his top 2 inches don't work in pressure situations, so in what way is he a good captain/player ? and why would anyone pick him.

 

[Peat]

Common misconception the RFU paid none of the money for Big Sam, Bruce Craig did. This meant Bath was able to completely call the shots when it came to training and development.

There are rumours Burgess got assurances from Lancaster about his inclusion in the squad before joining Bath but they are merely rumours.

The reality though is Lancaster & Farrell could of watched one of the umpteen games Burgess played for Bath on BT Sport like the rest of us and been able to tell what he was capable of doing. Considering the amount of Bath players in the extended and actual squad they must of been talking, sorry we can only chalk this up to pure incompetency.

Rumours I've heard don't have Lancaster giving out the assurances.

Also... we were winning the match when Burgess came off. We'd lost it against Australia by the time he'd gone on. Nobody of serious quality was left out because of him.

I'm not sure why anyone cares about this really. Simply based on what happened on the pitch, Burgess at 12 was... not that bad? Massively less of an issue then a lot of other things?

I still completely understand why they did what they did and am puzzled as to why everyone thinks they had no idea of what was going on.